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Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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    #5252
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    20Cent wrote: »
    Why should transwomen have to share with the transmen if it's so dangerous?

    Well, if you object to transwomen sharing with transmen, then surely you can understand women having a problem with their spaces being invaded?

    If, as many of you argue, there is no danger, why not have transmen and transwomen sharing? There’s no danger, right?


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    #5253
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Well, if you object to transwomen sharing with transmen, then surely you can understand women having a problem with their spaces being invaded?

    I don't, I was just being facetious and putting the same argument back at them.


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    #5254
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    20Cent wrote: »
    I don't, I was just being facetious and putting the same argument back at them.

    Many argue that there is no danger to women from transgender women. So going by that argument, transmen should also have nothing to fear from transwomen.


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    #5255
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    20Cent wrote: »
    Why should transwomen have to share with the transmen if it's so dangerous?

    No everyone could use the third space. But sex segregated spaces would be safeguarded.


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    #5256
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Many argue that there is no danger to women from transgender women. So going by that argument, transmen should also have nothing to fear from transwomen.

    Comments made in this thread was that someone male would make them feel uncomfortable. If a transman who has fully transitioned goes into the ladies then this would be the same discomfort.


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    #5257
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    20Cent wrote: »
    Comments made in this thread was that someone male would make them feel uncomfortable. If a transman who has fully transitioned goes into the ladies then this would be the same discomfort.

    So... then they can use the men’s loos. Women’s fear mostly come from uneasiness about the difference in physical strength, something that isn’t erased by transitioning, only slightly attenuated maybe. And with self ID, no transitioning is required at all. Men commit more violent crimes than women and transwomen are still biological males. Transitioning doesn’t remove them from that biological category.


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    #5258
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Gynoid wrote: »
    No everyone could use the third space. But sex segregated spaces would be safeguarded.

    Yes, this a good solution. A buffer zone. The problem is it’s often been women’s spaces that have been converted to a gender neutral space because many places can’t or won’t provide a third space.


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    #5259
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    20Cent wrote: »
    Comments made in this thread was that someone male would make them feel uncomfortable. If a transman who has fully transitioned goes into the ladies then this would be the same discomfort.

    Okay. Heres a thing. I walk alone in a very secluded forest regularly. If I meet a woman I say howaye. If I meet a man I say howaye AND there is a small instinctive part in the back of my brain that is more alert now. It is NOT because all men are rapists, they absolutely are not. It is because more men than women are rapists, and I am vulnerable as a woman. So the instinct is to be on heightened awareness. This instinct is a good protective evolutionary thing.

    Transwomen will be in the same group statistically as men when it comes to sexual assault rates. Sex segregated spaces protect females from higher rates of assault. It is not fair to have young girls or females generally in intimate public spaces with male bodied people. Especially where self ID lowers / removes all the barriers for safeguarding. A girl is not entitled in those circumstances to deploy her evolutionary instinct for self protection. She must hands down accept an unknown male bodied person beside her in the swimming pool showers or in the often very confined space of a public toilet waiting space. If she is miscarrying, likewise. If she is bleeding heavily, likewise. Etc.


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    #5260
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Gynoid wrote: »
    Okay. Heres a thing. I walk alone in a very secluded forest regularly. If I meet a woman I say howaye. If I meet a man I say howaye AND there is a small instinctive part in the back of my brain that is more alert now. It is NOT because all men are rapists, they absolutely are not. It is because more men than women are rapists, and I am vulnerable as a woman. So the instinct is to be on heightened awareness. This instinct is a good protective evolutionary thing.

    Transwomen will be in the same group statistically as men when it comes to sexual assault rates. Sex segregated spaces protect females from higher rates of assault. It is not fair to have young girls or females generally in intimate public spaces with male bodied people. Especially where self ID lowers / removes all the barriers for safeguarding. A girl is not entitled in those circumstances to deploy her evolutionary instinct for self protection. She must hands down accept an unknown male bodied person beside her in the swimming pool showers or in the often very confined space of a public toilet waiting space. If she is miscarrying, likewise. If she is bleeding heavily, likewise. Etc.

    I keep thinking back to 11 year old me, horrified that my period had arrived early, deeply uncomfortable with my fast-developing body. The idea of having to share changing facilities or loos with a biological male at that point in my life is not a pleasant one. I notice that a lot of the people who say “What’s the big deal?” seem to be men. This doesn’t affect them.


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    #5261
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I keep thinking back to 11 year old me, horrified that my period had arrived early, deeply uncomfortable with my fast-developing body. The idea of having to share changing facilities or loos with a biological male at that point in my life is not a pleasant one. I notice that a lot of the people who say “What’s the big deal?” seem to be men. This doesn’t affect them.

    I have recently been experiencing severe menorrhagia and was having to use unisex toilets abroad. It was horrible struggling to cope in cubicles which were open on top and bottom and men on either side of me. I get pissed off at male trans allies telling me I am phobic to want a safe and comfortable space.


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    #5262
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I keep thinking back to 11 year old me, horrified that my period had arrived early, deeply uncomfortable with my fast-developing body. The idea of having to share changing facilities or loos with a biological male at that point in my life is not a pleasant one. I notice that a lot of the people who say “What’s the big deal?” seem to be men. This doesn’t affect them.

    Are you nervous going into bathrooms and changing rooms now though?


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    #5263
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Watched the Peterson Zizek debate.
    You can hear the crowd laughing at Peterson several times during it.
    Says it all.


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    #5264
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Who’s going to clean his room now that he’s in hospital?


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    #5265
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I keep thinking back to 11 year old me, horrified that my period had arrived early, deeply uncomfortable with my fast-developing body. The idea of having to share changing facilities or loos with a biological male at that point in my life is not a pleasant one. I notice that a lot of the people who say “What’s the big deal?” seem to be men. This doesn’t affect them.

    I've experienced similar reactions from women when you talk about embarrassing moments when getting an erection. It's generally something that we can't control... and worse yet, when you have an uncontrollable ejaculation. Awesome stuff.:D You'll get the giggles or huge laughter from the ladies, but no real understanding of the shame involved.

    The truth is that neither gender understands or appreciates the physical differences, and the experiences that come with them. They're alien experiences to the other gender. And it's only when you start living with a female partner (not housemates) that a male gets his first real chance to appreciate what women have to go through. I'm very glad I'm not female.

    TBH though, i completely understand the desire for females to have different changing rooms. While it's different in sunny countries where people become accustomed to the revealed body, countries with worse weather often have issues with degrees of nakedness. Basically, boys/men will look. Not all of them, but many will. It's understandable that females would prefer privacy for changing, or anything else that they need to do. I also appreciate the risk of violence/abuse... and I agree with the ladies here completely.

    The funny thing about this transgender debate and the desire to share male changing rooms, is that many tansgenders who haven't made the full transition, or have had the less expensive operations, will be noticeably different. Might be the voicebox, or more physical signs, but they're going to get noticed.. and they're going to get uncomfortable with the looks, the comments, etc. Probably won't be nasty comments or insults because most males, in these kind of areas, are rather polite, but even just common observations to friends, or a kid telling his father. I just know it's going to happen.


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    #5266
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    20Cent wrote: »
    Are you nervous going into bathrooms and changing rooms now though?

    Not at all. But this isn’t just about me. Others are going through the same as I describe at any given time.


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    #5267
    creditcarder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭creditcarder


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Not at all. But this isn’t just about me. Others are going through the same as I describe at any given time.


    Wouldn't a woman not want other women nervous? :P



    I honestly do believe that there are differences in male and female mentalities at a biological level , but moving past I am kind of against trans in a very, very passive way. If a man wants to be a woman, it's fine, we all have our cross to bear, but I do not think we can be saying that it is 'brave' for a man to change his gender in the current anti attitudes towards men and how that will affect young man.


    On the flip side, you can't support trans rights and say you do not want to be around trans :P


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    #5268
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Make up and high heels do make women look more appealing, but why should that matter to any respectful guy? He’ll think in his head “Damn, she looks good”. No harm done. Wearing high heels and make up in no way justifies workplace sexual harassment and honestly, a guy who is a workplace harasser probably doesn’t need much encouragement. A man isn’t going to be turned into a harasser by the sight of a reddened lip and if that’s what Peterson suggesting, he has a pretty low opinion of menfolk.

    Peterson wasnt suggesting that at all and I think you know it.


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    #5269
    creditcarder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭creditcarder


    [HTML][/HTML]
    markodaly wrote: »
    I think his point was that its a hell of a lot more complicated than out of control men oggling women in make-up and high heals, when you factor in that make-up and high heals themselves have physiological conotations in finding a mate, from a evolutionary point of view.


    I agree with what your saying tbh. Harresment as bullying is a different kettle of fish, but men will be attracted if you are showing signs of sex in the same way that women would stare if you were stuffing socks down your pants.


  • Options
    #5270
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    markodaly wrote: »
    Peterson wasnt suggesting that at all and I think you know it.

    I disagree. So no, I don’t know it.


  • Options
    #5271
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Tordelback wrote: »
    Irrelevant to the larger topic at hand, but

    Dare I say its very relevant, otherwise why are wards segregated by sex?
    A&E is a bit of a mess alright, but do you think 17 year old girls should be sharing wards with 60+ year old men?

    Hopsitals certainly don't and in fact try and avoid that situation if possible, but we know it happens because of resourcing issues.


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    #5272
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I disagree. So no, I don’t know it.

    Well, you need to refresh your memory on the actual interview itself before to come to baseless conclusions.


  • Options
    #5273
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've experienced similar reactions from women when you talk about embarrassing moments when getting an erection. It's generally something that we can't control... and worse yet, when you have an uncontrollable ejaculation. Awesome stuff.:D You'll get the giggles or huge laughter from the ladies, but no real understanding of the shame involved.

    The truth is that neither gender understands or appreciates the physical differences, and the experiences that come with them. They're alien experiences to the other gender. And it's only when you start living with a female partner (not housemates) that a male gets his first real chance to appreciate what women have to go through. I'm very glad I'm not female.

    TBH though, i completely understand the desire for females to have different changing rooms. While it's different in sunny countries where people become accustomed to the revealed body, countries with worse weather often have issues with degrees of nakedness. Basically, boys/men will look. Not all of them, but many will. It's understandable that females would prefer privacy for changing, or anything else that they need to do. I also appreciate the risk of violence/abuse... and I agree with the ladies here completely.

    The funny thing about this transgender debate and the desire to share male changing rooms, is that many tansgenders who haven't made the full transition, or have had the less expensive operations, will be noticeably different. Might be the voicebox, or more physical signs, but they're going to get noticed.. and they're going to get uncomfortable with the looks, the comments, etc. Probably won't be nasty comments or insults because most males, in these kind of areas, are rather polite, but even just common observations to friends, or a kid telling his father. I just know it's going to happen.

    If that happened to a self-IDing transgender woman beside me in a changing room, I doubt I’d laugh!

    Yes, I agree. There are things people don’t understand about the opposite sex. And people who transition won’t understand all those things either.


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    #5274
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    markodaly wrote: »
    Well, you need to refresh your memory on the actual interview itself before to come to baseless conclusions.

    I came to my conclusions by watching the interview with my eyeballs and listening with my ears. :) I came to a different conclusion as you, that’s all. You don’t agree with my conclusion but that doesn’t make it incorrect.


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    #5275
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I came to my conclusions by watching the interview with my eyeballs and listening with my ears. :) I came to a different conclusion as you, that’s all. You don’t agree with my conclusion but that doesn’t make it incorrect.

    Well, in my opinion you watching the interview and coming to that conclusions is akin to someone reading a SuperMacs menu and thus thinking they understand Quantum Mechanincs.


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    #5276
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    20Cent wrote: »
    Comments made in this thread was that someone male would make them feel uncomfortable. If a transman who has fully transitioned goes into the ladies then this would be the same discomfort.

    Hey 20Cent, you didnt answer my last question (you seem to have form here)

    Are 17 year old girls stupid for feeling uncomfortable sharing hospital wards with strange 60+ year old men?


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    #5277
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    20Cent wrote: »
    Don't know the scientific terminology but...

    Never a truer word spoken. :pac:


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    #5278
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    markodaly wrote: »
    Well, in my opinion you watching the interview and coming to that conclusions is akin to someone reading a SuperMacs menu and thus thinking they understand Quantum Mechanincs.

    Well, happily enough, you’re not the authority on this. All you’ve said is “Yeah, that’s not what he meant”. Wow, my hair is blown back by your amazing persuasion skills.


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    #5279
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,949 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Gynoid wrote: »
    Slavoj Zizek, the stuttering Marxist so many here seem to love, advocates for third spaces. Many transgender people advocate for third spaces. It is the fairest solution.

    Is it a shock to you that everyone on the left doesn’t agree on every issue?
    Because not all transwomen are a threat to females but some are. If you say it never happens you will find many very disturbing examples here - https://www.womenarehuman.com/
    The numbers of assaults increases all the time.


    A transwoman who has self identified as female has the same sex drive and muscle mass as a man. Male sex offense rates are far higher than female rates (By the way this does not mean men are more generally physically abusive than women, those figures of general abuse may be far closer, but in terms of sexual attack rates by males are much higher).

    The population of transwomen and especially those who may self ID with no chemical or surgical change will sexually offend at the same RATE as the male population. This is logical and rational.
    Note - hormones and surgery are becoming less popular among the trans population because of the dreadful harm they cause including loss of sexual potency and pleasure.

    The population of natal women and girls deserve SAFEGUARDING.

    The UN fights campaigns in the developing world for single sex spaces including toilets for girls precisely because girls do not attend school due to high levels of sexual assault in communal or unisex toilets.

    Safeguarding women and girls from a higher rate of sexual assault trumps the rights of those who identify as females to enter their sex-protected spaces. I for one will not accept an attrition rate of sexually assaulted girls/ women, to satisfy activists. A third space is the solution.


    A third space is a solution. I agree. Now, how do we police the bathrooms and changing rooms to insure no pretty trans women infiltrate the women’s spaces?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #5280
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    Brian? wrote: »
    Is it a shock to you that everyone on the left doesn’t agree on every issue?




    A third space is a solution. I agree. Now, how do we police the bathrooms and changing rooms to insure no pretty trans women infiltrate the women’s spaces?

    I have been left wing on many issues since you were dribbling into your bib. I am just not stupidly so. Biology is real.

    Why would I police them? Just agree with me on something without the reflexive need for snark.


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    #5281
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    My analysis of globalist capitalism is likely far more radical that all these woke lefties who casually cast aspersions of bigotry and hate.
    As regards the culture war, I believe in personal freedom. There have however arisen challenging anomalies in the war of "rights", clashes of interest, and I reserve the human right to rationally adjudicate for myself on each culture war issue as it evolves. And evolve they do.
    I am sick to death of being presumed to be "right wing" just because I will not automatically hold your hand and skip along with you to your Utopian lala land.


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