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Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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    #5132
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Gynoid wrote: »
    You are still incorrect on all points.

    Well on the first one. Some babies are born trans. We know this so the gender they were given at birth is incorrect.

    In prison they have rules about transferring trans prisoners and also how violent prisoners are dealt with.

    Your other points are equally uninformed.


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    #5133
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    20Cent wrote: »
    Have only met one trans person in my life.
    This was female to male transman.
    He talked about things that are so normal for most people that we don't even think about them.

    Going to the bathroom for instance. While transitioning he was growing stubble and dressed male. If he went into the ladies and someone was there they might be offended and tell him to get out. If he goes into the men's and someone realises he could be in trouble as well. He used to spend hours in college holding in a p because going to the toilet was so stressful.
    That's just one aspect of life then there is everything else.

    To help people like this we don't even have to do anything.
    Just treat them the same as everyone else.
    Nothing could be easier.
    Seems to be too much to ask for some though.

    That has also happened to girls at a school in England who did not want to use the gender neutral facilities. These young girls did not want to share with boys and held it in all instead. Does your compassion extend to them?

    And it’s interesting that the toilet fears of transgender people are being embraced by you whilst you handwave away the worries of women on the same subject.


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    #5134
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    That has also happened to girls at a school in England who did not want to use the gender neutral facilities. These young girls did not want to share with boys and held it in all instead. Does your compassion extend to them?

    And it’s interesting that the toilet fears of transgender people are being embraced by you whilst you handwave away the worries of women on the same subject.

    Don't blame them not wanting to share toiles with boys.

    Discussion has been about trans people.


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    #5135
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    20Cent wrote: »
    Well on the first one. Some babies are born trans. We know this
    sorry to be pedantic but some babies may be born with gender dysphoria, babies are not "trans". Transition is one possible outcome in dealing with the dysphoria.


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    #5136
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    For all their ranting and raving you know for a fact they've probably never even spoken to a trans person in their lives. And if they did, they'd be far too cowardly to say what they say here to that person's face. That's the life of a person who subscribes to this far right philosophy, fear of someone different to themselves and cowardly posting about such stuff anonymously on internet forums in the guise of sticking up for womens rights.

    Again, sorry to cut into your fever dreams about people opposing issues to do with transpeople but I have. I outlined it elsewhere that I worked with a man who became a woman. We had changing room to work in a certain part of the facility. She used the women’s changing rooms and it was fine BUT this was a very controlled situation. We all knew her. This is different from public spaces.

    And I stick up for women’s rights because I’m a woman.


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    #5137
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Again, sorry to cut into your fever dreams about people opposing issues to do with transpeople but I have. I outlined it elsewhere that I worked with a man who became a woman. We had changing room to work in a certain part of the facility. She used the women’s changing rooms and it was fine BUT this was a very controlled situation. We all knew her. This is different from public spaces.

    OK, so say somebody has legally gone about changing their gender status (something which you'll know takes years and is very difficult) they've had operations, they've physically assimilated into their correct gender, would you have an issue with that person using that gender's changing room?


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    #5138
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    sorry to pedantic but surely some babies may be born with gender dysphoria, babies are not "trans".

    Don't know the scientific terminology but some babies born with a penis go on to become women and vice versa. What Dawn Butler said is correct, but a tiny number.


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    #5139
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    20Cent wrote: »
    What Dawn Butler said is correct, but a tiny number.

    Ok...so you agree that babies are born without sex?


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    #5140
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    OK, so say somebody has legally gone about changing their gender status (something which you'll know takes years and is very difficult) they've had operations, they've physically assimilated into their correct gender, would you have an issue with that person using that gender's changing room?

    We have self id in Ireland. It doesn't take years nor is it difficult, you send off a form


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    #5141
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Ok...so you agree that babies are born without sex?


    Think gender is a more appropriate word than she used.
    Clearly they are unless you think trans people are having all those operations for the craic.


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    #5142
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    bluewolf wrote: »
    We have self id in Ireland. It doesn't take years nor is it difficult, you send off a form

    https://www.thejournal.ie/trans-transgender-ireland-transitioning-health-hse-doctors-surgery-4759414-Aug2019/

    Reading this and in my own experience with friends who have, or a couple who are currently, transitioning I don't believe it is a simply experience at all.


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    #5143
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    bluewolf wrote: »
    We have self id in Ireland. It doesn't take years nor is it difficult, you send off a form

    It's been the case for the last 5 years.
    230 people have used it.

    The idea that loads of men will use it to go into women's spaces if demonstrably false.


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    #5144
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    https://www.thejournal.ie/trans-transgender-ireland-transitioning-health-hse-doctors-surgery-4759414-Aug2019/

    Reading this and in my own experience with friends who have, or a couple who are currently, transitioning I don't believe it is a simply experience at all.

    You said legally changing takes years. We have self id
    Medically changing is another story


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    #5145
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    OK, so say somebody has legally gone about changing their gender status (something which you'll know takes years and is very difficult) they've had operations, they've physically assimilated into their correct gender, would you have an issue with that person using that gender's changing room?

    I’d more on board though sorry to say, assimilation can never be complete. The big giveaway for me is physical movements. But yeah, if they were clearly dedicated to the transition, I’d be on board. Self ID being the only requirement? No, just no.


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    #5146
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    bluewolf wrote: »
    You said legally changing takes years. We have self id
    Medically changing is another story

    But our prison system is still set up whereby gender is determined by natal sex in Ireland.


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    #5147
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    But our prison system is still set up whereby gender is determined by natal sex in Ireland.

    No, male sex offender in the dochas centre

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261.amp


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    #5148
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I’d more on board though sorry to say, assimilation can never be complete. The big giveaway for me is physical movements. But yeah, if they were clearly dedicated to the transition, I’d be on board. Self ID being the only requirement? No, just no.

    OK. A guy turning up to an athletics event saying "I'm a woman let me in" I wouldn't be on board with. Thing is though something like that basically never happens anyway. The people who are passionate about this stuff, because it is literally their entire life, are people who more often than not transition, who live their life by the gender they believe that they should be. I think if somebody lives their life as that gender they should be treated as such.


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    #5149
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    B0jangles wrote: »
    I am so disappointed to find out that posters I liked and respected are so proudly transphobic.

    I’ve learned from this thread that the word ‘transphobic’ now rolls off my back.

    Bring it.


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    #5150
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    20Cent wrote: »
    Think gender is a more appropriate word than she used.
    Clearly they are unless you think trans people are having all those operations for the craic.

    ok babies are born one sex or the other. Intersex babies can have traits from both sexes.

    No I don't think people transition for the craic. I also don't think that the transitioning process makes the person the other sex. It may mimic some of the features of the other sex but that's as far as the technology can go at present.


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    #5151
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    But our prison system is still set up whereby gender is determined by natal sex in Ireland.

    Untrue.
    Currently, a pre-operative, pre-hormone therapy, male-to-female transgender prisoner is being held in Limerick women’s prison.

    This is understood to be the first time that an inmate, registered as male at birth, has been housed in a women’s prison in Ireland.

    When before the court last July, the prisoner was in possession of a gender recognition certificate.

    It is understood that the prisoner was assigned a high level of monitoring after being convicted of ten counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child.

    The prisoner is accompanied by two officers at all times while in the common areas of the detention facility.

    “The Irish Prison Service must accept all prisoners into custody, into whatever prison that a judge orders,” Minister Charlie Flanagan said in response to a parliamentary question from Aontú TD Peadar Tóibín, on 12 September.


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    #5152
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    OK. A guy turning up to an athletics event saying "I'm a woman let me in" I wouldn't be on board with. Thing is though something like that basically never happens anyway. The people who are passionate about this stuff, because it is literally their entire life, are people who more often than not transition, who live their life by the gender they believe that they should be. I think if somebody lives their life as that gender they should be treated as such.

    I don't know of any cases in ireland but legally we have self id so it can. In the states, girls are losing scholarships over this. Someone who transitioned knocked a couple women off in weightlifting for some qualifying event that i understand was their gateway to the olympics or some such.
    If its a problem elsewhere and we have no barriers to it here then we should be aware. Fallon fox breaking a woman's jaw should have been enough tbh. She was quoted afterwards saying the difference in strength straight away was scary.
    Secondary school lads can and will break top female athlete running records. Just no comparison


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    #5153
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    OK. A guy turning up to an athletics event saying "I'm a woman let me in" I wouldn't be on board with. Thing is though something like that basically never happens anyway. The people who are passionate about this stuff, because it is literally their entire life, are people who more often than not transition, who live their life by the gender they believe that they should be. I think if somebody lives their life as that gender they should be treated as such.

    That literally happened in Connecticut. There is lawsuit going on at the moment about it.

    I don’t think men who transition should be in women’s sports because most of the physical advantages remain. And if a boy transitions before puberty and doesn’t gain those advantages, that’s also unethical because those blockers shouldn’t be given to children.


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    #5154
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    bluewolf wrote: »
    No, male sex offender in the dochas centre

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261.amp

    Realistically how often does this happen? Again we've already gone over how trans people tend to be almost 50% less likely to commit sexual assault than cis people. The person linked in your article is a horrible person. Any sex offender is a horrible person. Using 1 horrible person as a crutch to beat an at risk minority is not fair.


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    #5155
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Realistically how often does this happen? Again we've already gone over how trans people tend to be almost 50% less likely to commit sexual assault than cis people. The person linked in your article is a horrible person. Any sex offender is a horrible person. Using 1 horrible person as a crutch to beat an at risk minority is not fair.

    Nobody is beating anyone but it can happen, it has happened, and women should not be put at risk of assault in the interest of "fairness". It happened in the uk. It happened in canada. It is happening and women are at risk too. We're not sacrifices for political correctness.

    At least the person in the dochas centre is being guarded 24/7 but i don't know how sustainable that is


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    #5156
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    That literally happened in Connecticut. There is lawsuit going on at the moment about it.

    I don’t think men who transition should be in women’s sports because most of the physical advantages remain. And if a boy transitions before puberty and doesn’t gain those advantages, that’s also unethical because those blockers shouldn’t be given to children.

    Then that board needs to look at their rules and regulations. From a competitive point of view testing is in place, if anything it's becoming more and more stringent. To be very honest, in all my time in LGBTQ groups and of the trans people I've come across, a small percentage of them have any interest in sport. Something like that is for sporting bodies to consider, again it's not a reason to deny a person rights.


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    #5157
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Then that board needs to look at their rules and regulations. From a competitive point of view testing is in place, if anything it's becoming more and more stringent. To be very honest, in all my time in LGBTQ groups and of the trans people I've come across, a small percentage of them have any interest in sport. Something like that is for sporting bodies to consider, again it's not a reason to deny a person rights.

    Which rights are being denied?


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    #5158
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Nobody is beating anyone but it can happen, it has happened, and women should not be put at risk of assault in the interest of "fairness". It happened in the uk. It happened in canada. It is happening and women are at risk too. We're not sacrifices for political correctness.

    At least the person in the dochas centre is being guarded 24/7 but i don't know how sustainable that is

    But how would that person fair in a mens prison? If they've transitioned, they'd be preyed upon by male prisoners, an easy target.


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    #5159
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    But how would that person fair in a mens prison? If they've transitioned, they'd be preyed upon by male prisoners, an easy target.

    Women are preyed upon by people like "karen white" as easy targets. There are no easy answers here and putting women at risk like they did in the uk is not an answer


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    #5160
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Then that board needs to look at their rules and regulations. From a competitive point of view testing is in place, if anything it's becoming more and more stringent. To be very honest, in all my time in LGBTQ groups and of the trans people I've come across, a small percentage of them have any interest in sport. Something like that is for sporting bodies to consider, again it's not a reason to deny a person rights.

    It doesn’t matter if it’s a small amount, it will still skew things badly. I believe 2000 men in the world can run the 100m faster than the women’s Olympic champion. We’ve seen out of shape, self IDing men top podiums beside lithe, honed women.


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    #5161
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Women are preyed upon by people like "karen white" as easy targets. There are no easy answers here and putting women at risk like they did in the uk is not an answer

    But what is your solution?

    If a man has medically transitioned, has legally transitioned into a woman, where would you put that person?


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