Jordan Peterson interview on C4

20Cent wrote: »

Why would they feel uncomfortable?

The mind boggles..

You have to realise when you're arguing with the likes of 20cent, that you're not having a discussion, he's pushing an agenda..any glaring holes in logic, or questionable morality, are ignored. It doesn't matter what you say, he'll be back tomorrow pushing the same thing. The aim is to use the idea of compassion to get people one by one to accept whatever ideological position, or just to open to it some bit, and next thing it's mandatory..

"Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good."

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Make up and high heels do make women look more appealing, but why should that matter to any respectful guy? He’ll think in his head “Damn, she looks good”. No harm done. Wearing high heels and make up in no way justifies workplace sexual harassment and honestly, a guy who is a workplace harasser probably doesn’t need much encouragement. A man isn’t going to be turned into a harasser by the sight of a reddened lip and if that’s what Peterson suggesting, he has a pretty low opinion of menfolk.

Okay. I know long posts tend to be ignored, but it's gotta be done, and hopefully, you'll appreciate what I mean by this.

Let's break this down a little, because there is a tendency to make this incredibly simple and so remove the factors that influence what happens.

When we look at the two genders and consider that there are differences which could be biological, or cultural, it's obvious to note that there are indeed differences. Some people want to suggest that there are none, but I suspect that's more about what the genders could possibly evolve towards rather than acknowledging the differences that exist today. One of the differences is sexual attraction, and how that is formed or recognised.

First off, is to acknowledge the separation of conscious and subconscious behavior. Subconscious being the automatic behavior that is generally out of the control of the conscious mind, although the creation of habits can limit the freedom that the subconscious has. I doubt you need a definition of those two areas of consciousness. We tend to train our subconscious through the experiences of our lives coupled with any conditioning from areas such as morality, parenting, etc but it's a very inaccurate system unless there is dedicated and intentional attempts to introduce habits.

When it comes to sexual attraction, there are differences in how the two genders behave. Perhaps it's due to the difference in the physical bodies and what is considered attractive, but the physical attractiveness of the female body tends to be stronger than the male body. Males when aroused will have a sure sign in the stiffening of the penis to let them know of their attraction on a sexual level. Females have the hardening of nipples, or I've heard "becoming wet" (but I don't know if that's accurate). The point for males though is that they have a very strong reminder throughout their lives when sexual attraction occurs, and that does have an impact on their development, and how they perceive their desired gender. From what I've read, or spoken to females, females don't have a similar physical messaging system.. at least, it doesn't happen as often as it does for males.

Most males will have random thoughts about sex many times daily. All the males, except for two guys, who I've had this conversation admitted to such thoughts. They're unasked for, they're not something they go seeking, they're just thoughts that pop up. That doesn't mean they dwell on the thoughts, but it does mean that sex (or the sexual attraction of a females' behavior) is a common occurrence. Most males learn to block out these thoughts, but many others (either due to environmental concerns, or experience) don't. They might dwell on them (I did as a teenager), and allow them to cause frustration. Actual physical frustration, which is why there's so much emphasis on male masturbation, but masturbation is often shown as a negative thing. I know guys who were physically beaten by their parents when they were caught masturbating, and still feel guilt when they **** (or can't do it all).

The next point is about the subconscious. Looking at a woman's appearance, although generally it's about the actual body. Stealing glances at the body. If a woman is wearing clothes that is revealing (dependent on the cultural background of the male), he'll look at the revealed areas. It's not intentional (although it can be), but generally, there's an uncontrollable desire to see some flesh, especially when it comes to breasts, or the upper parts of the thighs. Even though, I've worked on creating habits to control, and not look, I still do it. It's not sexual as such. There's no intention, but it's something that slips by my behavioral controls. (to my knowledge from conversations with women, they don't have any similar appreciation of the male body, but will sometimes do it regarding another female)

A lot of female fashions take note of these factors, and take advantage of them. Sheer clothes which can show the shape, but not give a clear definition of the body part, is very enticing to some. Hot pants, with the cuts, so high to show the upper thighs, and emphasize the shape of the vagina. Short skirts which have males automatically looking to catch a glance at her underwear, even though, there's no actual desire to see anything. I could list two dozens aspects of female fashion which reveals the body in different ways, and how it would affects many males. And it's intentional. Fashion designers know that their designs have this affect on males, because women want to feel desired. Most women (traditionally) wanted the attention. Nowadays, there's the expectation that a female should wear whatever she wants, and the male should just know (somehow) what she wants from them, or doesn't want from them. Irrespective of why, or the manner in which the fashion style affects males, females should be able to wear them... but it conveniently ignores conditioning, and basic biological reflexes.

The next problem is knowing what females want. We're not mind readers. Different women want different things and what they want can change quite often, even within minutes. Many females seem to believe that a male should just know what the female wants. Some males might get lucky with their assumptions, but most are guessing.. and guesses are often wrong. Judging a woman by her appearance (clothes, makeup, behavior) is the way that most males will seek to understand a female, and what she wants. Many women seem to think that females are very direct in saying what they want, but alas, that's not often true. There are many sets of behavior, along with degrees of confidence, so it makes it difficult to create a base template to follow. Speaking as a bisexual male, I find females more mercurial than males, with males being very easy to read... not so with most females.

You're correct in thinking at a respectful male aren't a problem. Most guys aren't. Oh sure, most guys will have an experience in their lives where they harassed a female, felt bad, and used it as a template for not doing it again. Whereas others will have done that, and used it as a template for some other behavior. I don't really know. I'm very uncomfortable with feeling like I'm pushing myself on other people... but there is a learning process involved, and some people learn slower than others. And some don't want to learn.

I could write a lot more, but there's little point. The truth is that female fashion (in terms of clothes, and makeup) were designed to affect males both consciously and subconsciously. The use of perfume is a great example. In most cases, it's not the female intention about wearing the clothes that's important, it's the effect (intentional or unintentional) that is important. Many females these days, want to wear whatever they want but pretend that the influence of the style is dependent on whether they want the attention. Like there's an on/off switch that they can press depending on their feeling at any given time, and worse yet, that they can have it turned on for one individual male, and be turned off for another individual. It's unrealistic, and impractical.

The problem is that many women want to remove their own responsibility in choosing what they wear, and how they behave. Oh, I'm not denying that males have a responsibility not to be a dick... but there is responsibility on both sides. Many females want to behave any which way, regardless of the traditional consequences of that behavior. Wear sexy clothes, drink like crazy, and be very touchy with strangers in a bar? Those are the signals that she's looking for companionship. She might not be, but most guys (and girls) in a room will think that she is. There's no way to read her mind... so people judge by appearance. Females these days want to remove responsibility for their appearance and the message it sends to males... It's not going to work. Sorry. I genuinely wish that it could work... but I don't think it will. Women will continue to be hassled by nice and bad guys because of their appearance, because the baseline behavior/intention changes so much depending on the individual but the fashion remains the same.

Um.. this is getting too long. haha. I think Peterson was reaching out to the generation of males who have very little experience with females. Many millennial's in the US don't have a relationship or even lose their virginity until they're in their mid-20s. We learn how to behave mostly through experience. Reading or learning from others only goes so far. Direct personal experience is king. And many people nowadays due to dating apps (which emphasize physical beauty which most of us don't have), social media, etc don't get much experience with their preferred gender. There's little chance to experiment with dating in school/university when these things are supposed to happen (and US universities are probably now the worst place to try to learn these things).

So, I suspect such behavior is likely to get worse, not better. Society is changing, becoming less tolerant of people making mistakes, and removing the places/opportunities for many people to learn these things for themselves.

Lastly, none of this is seeking to excuse/justify a rapist, molester, harasser, or anyone who is forceful against another person's wishes. I find that people want to dumb down human social interaction, and human biology. To make it so simple that it removes all the confusing factors that make life so damn complicated. White wash the whole area. Wishing something is better doesn't make it better. And limiting our appreciation for human behavior because it is complicated, uncomfortable, bizarre, etc is dangerous.

[Oh. And when people decide to take me apart... quote the whole paragraph. I have no intention of responding to anyone who takes something out of context. --- and don't go nuts because I didn't say "some" women and "some" men everywhere. Generalisations abound. Oh.. and it's not close to perfect.. be a little patient. I didn't want to write too much more.. and yet, to be clear would need a lot more writing. Life is so Hard! ]

20Cent wrote: »

If you find yourself or your children sharing a changing room with a trans person here are some easy steps if you feel uncomfortable. First buy a lotto ticket because the chances are incredibly slim.

The chances of encountering a transgender who has done the physical transition is rare (for now), but the chance of meeting someone who identifies themselves as the other gender are much higher. You, yourself, have stated that such people should not be treated any differently that those who have made the physical transformation, and so they'll gain access to female only changing rooms too.

TBH I find your inability to sympathise with the females who find this uncomfortable or worrying, disturbing. You're so hellbent on giving transgenders full access to gender specific areas, that you have no issue with trampling over their rights.

It's been asked a few times, and you've always skipped past it. Why do transgenders, as a minority, receive so much priority in their wants over the majority?