Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Gynoid

Because they are women having to change in front of men?? ^^^^

20Cent

Gynoid wrote: »

Because they are women having to change in front of men?? ^^^^

Gynoid have you done anything to have the law reversed since it is of such concern to you?

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Gynoid have you done anything to have the law reversed since it is of such concern to you?

But that's not really how it works..no one will go actively campaigning to change the law.. you would just be met with vitriol from the twitterati..but it will engender (BOOM!) a kind of resentment under the surface..which in turn will lead to the rise of an opposition..and you will wonder how it happened.. It's the likes of this that has led to Trump, and brexit, and rather than learn from these, people are getting more entrenched.. It's quite tragic really..

Jordan Peterson attempted to object to a law, and here you are two years later still giving out about him..

coffee_cake

Anyone who tried to say a word about this law would be sacked like maya f or death and rape threats galore like jkr and anyone else who has a concern expressed on twitter. Posted a link to plenty of such threats earlier in thread.

Third spaces already exist ie family changing rooms. Surely mixed sex in there. 12 year old can stick with female only and either trans people could use third space

markodaly

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nobody is stupid for feeling uncomfortable having to share a space with strangers. Get that out of the way first of all. Now the thing is, in the example you gave, the circumstances of that case were that the male assailant wasn’t even trying to pass themselves off as a woman.

You are missing the point.

There is a narrative being pushed that if young girls feel uncomfortable sharing public spaces like toilets or hospital wards with older men, then they should just get over it.

It does not matter really if the men in question are biological men. In this day where someone can self-identity whatever gender they feel like on any given day, then it gives pause to the practical problems this may cause.

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

There are plenty of 12 year old girls in the world who are naked in front of men regularly without issues.

.

WHAT???

Do you have your own kids?

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

WHAT???

Do you have your own kids?

This has been answered. There are cultural differences all over the world. Nudity is more taboo in some than others. This isn't a controversial statement.

20Cent

Deleted User wrote: »

But that's not really how it works..no one will go actively campaigning to change the law.. you would just be met with vitriol from the twitterati..but it will engender (BOOM!) a kind of resentment under the surface..which in turn will lead to the rise of an opposition..and you will wonder how it happened.. It's the likes of this that has led to Trump, and brexit, and rather than learn from these, people are getting more entrenched.. It's quite tragic really..

Jordan Peterson attempted to object to a law, and here you are two years later still giving out about him..

Peterson warned of all kinds of problems from adding trans people to protected groups in Canada. He thought he'd be dragged off to jail because some student wanted to be referred to as Zee or something and he didn't.

Legal experts told him he was wrong but he continued. The law passed and it turns out the legal experts were right.

I was surprised that self I'd has been legal in Ireland since 2015 and that we have some of the most liberal laws in the world in this area. Don't recall much of a fuss when it passed and there was little to no opposition to it in the Dail. Haven't heard it mentioned ever, have never heard anyone complain about it, haven't heard of anyone abusing it,.

Maybe like Peterson the fears are unfounded. The experience in Ireland is that there is no evidence of problems for the last five years since self I'd became law.

LineOfBeauty

markodaly wrote: »

You are missing the point.

There is a narrative being pushed that if young girls feel uncomfortable sharing public spaces like toilets or hospital wards with older men, then they should just get over it.

It does not matter really if the men in question are biological men. In this day where someone can self-identity whatever gender they feel like on any given day, then it gives pause to the practical problems this may cause.

OK so play out this made up scenario.

Male sexual deviant (because that's what he is, trans people are not sexual deviants, in the same way gay people weren't sexual deviants when in the 60's and 70's they'd have you believe that all gay people were) walks into local gym in the middle of the day, the sexual deviant walks into the ladies locker room, lady inside goes to front desk to complain, staff can see this on camera and they go into locker room and have him removed. Sexual deviant attempts to defend himself by saying he identifies as a woman. It's pretty clear from the sexual deviant's appearance and lack of legal gender recognition that it's made up.

What kind of sexual predator would strike in such a public place where they are already causing notice to themselves by looking out of place?

So if you're talking about actual trans people, and not this threat of a guy in a wig looking to molest someone, what harm do they cause in these spaces? Firstly chances are you wont notice them in the 1st place, and odds are you're more likely to be assaulted by a man bursting into your locker room than the trans woman.

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

This has been answered. There are cultural differences all over the world. Nudity is more taboo in some than others. This isn't a controversial statement.

So, no, you dont have kids.

If you did, you may feel different about it.

markodaly

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

What kind of sexual predator would strike in such a public place where they are already causing notice to themselves by looking out of place?

.

What kind of sexual predator sexually assaults a 17-year-old girl on a public ward?
Well it happened.

Are you saying that hospital wards should be unisex?

coffee_cake

We have self id. They don't need to alter their appearance to identify, genuinely or not, as trans.
Real scenario is more likely:
Woman complains
Woman is told man self ids as female
Woman is told she's a terf and a bigot and is not welcome anymore

20Cent

bluewolf wrote: »

We have self id. They don't need to alter their appearance to identify, genuinely or not, as trans.
Real scenario is more likely:
Woman complains
Woman is told man self ids as female
Woman is told she's a terf and a bigot and is not welcome anymore

230 people have self ID's since it became legal.
Sounds lower than I'd have guessed.
Doesn't sound like the facility to do it is being abused by people.
Also why would someone change their gender legally just so they could go into female spaces sounds like a lot of trouble to go through!

Are there any reports of the above scenario happening?

Something so remote isn't a good reason to disenfranchise a tiny minority.

LineOfBeauty

bluewolf wrote: »

We have self id. They don't need to alter their appearance to identify, genuinely or not, as trans.
Real scenario is more likely:
Woman complains
Woman is told man self ids as female
Woman is told she's a terf and a bigot and is not welcome anymore

Even more real scenario:
The above scenario would not play out like that in any gym in this country and thinking it would is in the realms of right wing fantasy.

If you so strongly believe that you, a man, can walk into a ladies changing room in a gym without consequence then go for it. Lets play it out. Changing your gender status is easy, so do it. Change your gender status. Go to your gym dressed as a man. Walk into the ladies changing room. When you get kicked out say you identify as a woman and shout "terf and bigot" until you are hoarse. Let's see what the real life and online reaction will be to you. Because, you say, the gym and the lady will be ridiculed, I say you'll be called a sexual deviant. Let's genuinely see which way it swings and see who is right.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

So, no, you dont have kids.

If you did, you may feel different about it.

I don't have kids, and can understand the problems involved. Don't make this an issue about whether someone has kids or not.

He's right in that there are different perceptions about nudity, or sharing spaces of the genders. However, at the same time, to expect an established traditional view to instantly, or even quickly, disappear is unrealistic... because that is what is being asked (or rather we're really being told) to accept.

CtevenSrowder

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

OK so play out this made up scenario.

Male sexual deviant (because that's what he is, trans people are not sexual deviants, in the same way gay people weren't sexual deviants when in the 60's and 70's they'd have you believe that all gay people were) walks into local gym in the middle of the day, the sexual deviant walks into the ladies locker room, lady inside goes to front desk to complain, staff can see this on camera and they go into locker room and have him removed. Sexual deviant attempts to defend himself by saying he identifies as a woman. It's pretty clear from the sexual deviant's appearance and lack of legal gender recognition that it's made up.

What kind of sexual predator would strike in such a public place where they are already causing notice to themselves by looking out of place?

So if you're talking about actual trans people, and not this threat of a guy in a wig looking to molest someone, what harm do they cause in these spaces? Firstly chances are you wont notice them in the 1st place, and odds are you're more likely to be assaulted by a man bursting into your locker room than the trans woman.

Your point is mute. What people are talking about is discomfort, and why the discomfort of a biological male should trump that of a biological female.

LineOfBeauty

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Your point is mute. What people are talking about is discomfort, and why the discomfort of a biological male should trump that of a biological female.

And my point is that if you're actually in the changing room with an actual trans person you probably won't even notice and that the changing room debate is nothing but silly scare mongering in the 1st place.

CtevenSrowder

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

And my point is that if you're actually in the changing room with an actual trans person you probably won't even notice and that the changing room debate is nothing but silly scare mongering in the 1st place.

You will, if you can see their penis. The issue here is more to do with self Id. I (think at least) that the majority of the posters here are OK with a post op transwoman using female facilities but not pre op.

20Cent

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

You will, if you can see their penis. The issue here is more to do with self Id. I (think at least) that the majority of the posters here are OK with a post op transwoman using female facilities but not pre op.

It's about .7% of the population.
Out of that .7% some will be post opp so say it's .5% who will have a penis.
Out of that .5% what are the chances of being in the changing room looking at them for the few seconds they are exposed?

You are talking about an event that is so remote to be insignificant.

LineOfBeauty

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

You will, if you can see their penis. The issue here is more to do with self Id. I (think at least) that the majority of the posters here are OK with a post op transwoman using female facilities but not pre op.

But we've had self ID for 5 years and it hasn't been a problem! And again, in the scenario I laid out a few posts ago, any lad going to the bother of changing their status on self ID and going into a ladies changing room will probably just be thrown out. Realistically, a public space where they are drawing huge amounts of attention to themselves is probably the opposite of ideal conditions for a sexual predator.

CtevenSrowder

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

But we've had self ID for 5 years and it hasn't been a problem! And again, in the scenario I laid out a few posts ago, any lad going to the bother of changing their status on self ID and going into a ladies changing room will probably just be thrown out. Realistically, a public space where they are drawing huge amounts of attention to themselves is probably the opposite of ideal conditions for a sexual predator.

If they are thrown out they could sue and they would win. The fact that it hasn't been a problem for 5 years is neither here nor there. Things aren't problems until they are problems.

One eyed Jack

markodaly wrote: »

You are missing the point.

There is a narrative being pushed that if young girls feel uncomfortable sharing public spaces like toilets or hospital wards with older men, then they should just get over it.

It does not matter really if the men in question are biological men. In this day where someone can self-identity whatever gender they feel like on any given day, then it gives pause to the practical problems this may cause.

I’m not missing your point at all, and I’m well aware that’s the narrative being push by a tiny minority of people who show no consideration for anyone’s opinions but their own.

As to people identifying themselves as whatever gender they like on any given day, it doesn’t give rise to any practical problems, only the problems that you imagine and want everyone else to imagine too. I don’t imagine them because I’m not inclined to presume the worst of other people, and that’s where the whole argument that people shouldn’t be allowed do this, that and the other simply falls apart. They have the same rights and responsibilities in law as everyone else in Irish society.

If you want to make the argument that men are inherently predatory, you’re going to need a lot more evidence than just mere supposition, because the figures don’t bear out your assumptions about the risk to women’s safety and welfare from biological males, let alone the tiny minority of biological males who identify themselves as women.

The idea is not only unreasonable, it’s hysterics and trying to generate pandemonium which doesn’t map to reality. It’s one of the reasons why prejudices against homosexuals have decreased - because people were being told things about them that didn’t map to the reality of people’s expectations of homosexuals. Turns out they’re not all deviants after all. Same thing is happening with people who are transgender - it doesn’t map to people’s reality any more than the wingnuts on social media declaring the end of womanhood. People see for themselves that a lot of the hysteria is just nonsense.

LineOfBeauty

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

If they are thrown out they could sue and they would win. The fact that it hasn't been a problem for 5 years is neither here nor there. Things aren't problems until they are problems.

I can't wrap my head around that line of thinking. And it would lead me to ask, are you as protective of women's safety issues over things that actually have happened, numerous times, as you are about something that hasn't happened?

Edit: Just off the top of my head, over the last 5 years ladies being sexually assaulted by male taxi drivers has happened a whole lot more than ladies being sexually assaulted by trans men in changing rooms (which, we know in this country, hasn't happened) so, why are people not up in arms about taxi drivers and painting taxi drivers by the same brush (apologies to all taxi drivers out there, this is an example to describe how off the argument is here).

Gynoid

20Cent wrote: »

Gynoid have you done anything to have the law reversed since it is of such concern to you?

Yup Argue my head off with idealogues like you in a public forum pointing out biological realities and logical incoherence so that some readers may be informed . Woohoo! Go me

coffee_cake

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Even more real scenario:
The above scenario would not play out like that in any gym in this country and thinking it would is in the realms of right wing fantasy.

If you so strongly believe that you, a man, can walk into a ladies changing room in a gym without consequence then go for it. Lets play it out. Changing your gender status is easy, so do it. Change your gender status. Go to your gym dressed as a man. Walk into the ladies changing room. When you get kicked out say you identify as a woman and shout "terf and bigot" until you are hoarse. Let's see what the real life and online reaction will be to you. Because, you say, the gym and the lady will be ridiculed, I say you'll be called a sexual deviant. Let's genuinely see which way it swings and see who is right.

Am female. Heard plenty anecdotes from canada where the self id male belongs in there.
You're welcome to give it a go

CtevenSrowder

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around that line of thinking. And it would lead me to ask, are you as protective of women's safety issues over things that actually have happened, numerous times, as you are about something that hasn't happened?

Such as?

The point is why increase the risk to a majority to placate an tiny, tiny minority even if the increase in that risk is small (and with self I'd I'm not necessarily talking about the threat of actual trans people but potential non-trans opportunists that are seen in prisons for example).

And regardless, the issue is more to with the comfort of biological females in their spaces as opposed to any increase in threats to them.

LineOfBeauty

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Such as?

The point is why increase the risk to a majority to placate an tiny, tiny minority even if the increase in that risk is small (and with self I'd I'm not necessarily talking about the threat of actual trans people but potential non-trans opportunists that are seen in prisons for example).

And regardless, the issue is more to with the comfort of biological females in their spaces as opposed to any increase in threats to them.

Please see taxi driver scenario and advise on how to protest correctly.

LineOfBeauty

bluewolf wrote: »

Am female. Heard plenty anecdotes from canada where the self id male belongs in there.
You're welcome to give it a go

And have you heard about anecdotes where the trans person went into the changing room, got changed and left and nobody noticed?
Can you find a like minded male friend to give it a go? Because I would love to see it play out, because, in a real life scenario, you know my version of things is far more likely to happen than your version of things.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The idea is not only unreasonable, it’s hysterics and trying to generate pandemonium which doesn’t map to reality. It’s one of the reasons why prejudices against homosexuals have decreased - because people were being told things about them that didn’t map to the reality of people’s expectations of homosexuals. Turns out they’re not all deviants after all. Same thing is happening with people who are transgender - it doesn’t map to people’s reality any more than the wingnuts on social media declaring the end of womanhood. People see for themselves that a lot of the hysteria is just nonsense.

I'd feel that the hysteria was more easily dismissed (not easy really, but...) because homosexuality had been part of society for a long time. Part of but not approved of. Whereas with transgenderism, it's mostly a new thing for western nations. We don't have a history with such a thing, and can't really know how it will evolve within mainstream society over time. With homosexuality, we could (kinda). Transgender is different. And it's even more different because it covers so much.. it's not simply people who change their gender physically.. it's more than that, and could easily expand to include other behaviors later.

As for unreasonable hysteria about transgender, I'm in the middle. While I haven't had many normal encounters with them, I have met them in LGB bars/clubs, and they've shown themselves to be quite aggressive and violent at times. Sure, all people do, but.. there's a rather unpredictable element with some T that makes me uneasy. Same with encountering T in Thailand and other parts of Asia. There was a very unpredictable and hostile element of T too. Not everywhere, and not by everyone, but it definitely existed..

As the numbers have traditionally been so low, it's hard to be sure of the T with regards to violence, but I've met far more who were aggressive/offensive, than those who weren't. Admittedly all in LGB bars/clubs/parties, but to be fair, these should be places they would be more relaxed. I dunno.

I'd like to see more research done before we jump aside and give them the keys to the city. Let's determine whether there are threats involved. and what will happen over time. Ease in the changes gradually, giving everything time to grow more comfortable with the whole thing. T are not persecuted the way that LGB were. That's already a major step which they didn't really have to fight hard for... enjoy that for a while, before pushing for more.

20Cent

Gynoid wrote: »

Yup Argue my head off with idealogues like you in a public forum pointing out biological realities and logical incoherence so that some readers may be informed . Woohoo! Go me

I'm not an ideologue, my position is the same as the vast majority of people in Ireland and is totally uncontroversial.