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Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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    #5192
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    20Cent wrote: »
    Yes they are called intersex.
    Some are born with ambiguous genitalia as well.

    There is a famous case of twin boys.
    There was an accident when circumcising one of them so the doctor castrated him and made a vagina. He was raised a a girl but when he reached puberty rejected anything feminine and was suicidal with depression. Being male of female isn't down to just genitals.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-11814300

    He felt like he was a boy and he was born male. I don’t think that really helps your point at all.

    As for the bolded, intersex babies are intersex. Most babies are not intersex. And guess what? Intersex babies can’t change their chromosomes either. They are always intersex.

    Jeebus. I guess I’m partial as a biology graduate but the poor grasp of basic science by huge swathes of the population never fails to depress me.


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    #5193
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    bluewolf wrote: »
    the more original question was what rights are they being denied

    Apparently the right to pee anywhere or get changed after a gym session anywhere aside from a dark corridor.

    Really though it's simple things and we should be trying to make their lives as easy and as comfortable as ours. Things that we take for granted are things that are everyday problems for them. I suppose ultimately what I'm saying is, if people actually treated trans people in the way in which they speak about them in this thread I'd say that would be despicable, a little bit of empathy, a little bit of consideration for a person whose most likely had a really tough life can go such a long way.


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    #5194
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    No come back to the other question about what rights would be infringed do you think by giving trans people full rights?

    Plenty of come back actually. You’ve been given examples on this thread. Lots.

    Women’s rights are encroached to accommodate trans rights.


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    #5195
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    He felt like he was a boy and he was born male. I don’t think that really helps your point at all.

    As for the bolded, intersex babies are intersex. Most babies are not intersex. And guess what? Intersex babies can’t change their chromosomes either. They are always intersex.

    Jeebus. I guess I’m partial as a biology graduate but the poor grasp of basic science by huge swathes of the population never fails to depress me.

    She didn't say most babies are intersex.
    She said babies are born without sex.
    This is true.

    He had female genitalia and raised female but his brain was a boys and this caused him great distress to the point of being suicidal. That's the point thought it was clear.


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    #5196
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Apparently the right to pee anywhere or get changed after a gym session anywhere aside from a dark corridor.

    Really though it's simple things and we should be trying to make their lives as easy and as comfortable as ours. Things that we take for granted are things that are everyday problems for them. I suppose ultimately what I'm saying is, if people actually treated trans people in the way in which they speak about them in this thread I'd say that would be despicable, a little bit of empathy, a little bit of consideration for a person whose most likely had a really tough life can go such a long way.

    so... no rights are being denied?


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    #5197
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    You’ve been given examples on this thread. Lots.

    No but I want yours. Which ones do you think are infringed upon by giving trans people all the rights that you and I have.


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    #5198
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    bluewolf wrote: »
    so... no rights are being denied?

    I don't know, what rights do you think are denied? Or, more pressingly because this thread is about a man who would advocate for trans people being second class citizens, what rights would you like to be taken away?


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    #5199
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    I don't know, what rights do you think are denied??

    nope. you keep saying they don't have the same rights as anyone else and that we're denying them rights. which rights?


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    #5200
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    20Cent wrote: »
    She didn't say most babies are intersex.
    She said babies are born without sex.
    This is true.

    He had female genitalia and raised female but his brain was a boys and this caused him great distress to the point of being suicidal. That's the point thought it was clear.

    No, it’s not possible for a baby to not have a biological sex. Having an intersex karyotype is also a biological sex.


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    #5201
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    bluewolf wrote: »
    nope. you keep saying they don't have the same rights as anyone else and that we're denying them rights. which rights?

    I'm saying that culturally it's difficult for transgender people and that the attitude of some would have them turned into second class citizens, I'm asking you what rights do you want to take from them?


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    #5202
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    No, it’s not possible for a baby to not have a biological sex. Having an intersex karyotype is also a biological sex.

    Whatever combination of genitalia and organs you can think of will have happened at some stage.


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    #5203
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    No but I want yours. Which ones do you think are infringed upon by giving trans people all the rights that you and I have.

    I’ve been pretty active in this discussion. But okay, in Ireland we have self-ID. That means that men who go through the self-ID process can use women’s facilities. You may say a gender recognition cert will be required to use them. How would that be policed? Would somebody even have to provide that information for a stranger? You can’t envisage that self-ID laws could be abused?


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    #5204
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    I'm saying that culturally it's difficult for transgender people and that the attitude of some would have them turned into second class citizens, I'm asking you what rights do you want to take from them?
    you seemed to have very clear ideas about what rights they did or didn't have earlier. i want to know what they were?

    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    again it's not a reason to deny a person rights.
    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    OK then in a non confrontational way as somebody who has supported gay rights and who probably would consider himself a gay ally, where do you stand on trans rights?
    .
    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    No come back to the other question about what rights would be infringed do you think by giving trans people full rights?


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    #5205
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    20Cent wrote: »
    Whatever combination of genitalia and organs you can think of will have happened at some stage.

    That’s an intersex condition. Again, can’t be changed. Literally every baby born has an arrangement of chromosomes present at birth.


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    #5206
    tdf7187
    Registered Users Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭tdf7187


    Some of youse spend too much time on the internet, is all I'd say.


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    #5207
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Gas people who wouldn't even want to allow trans people in bathrooms or changing rooms asking what right they are denied.


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    #5208
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    tdf7187 wrote: »
    Some of youse spend too much time on the internet, is all I'd say.

    My mom thinks I’m cool. :(


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    #5209
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    20Cent wrote: »
    Gas people who wouldn't even want to allow trans people in bathrooms or changing rooms asking what right they are denied.

    There is a bathroom or changing facility available to everyone who changes gender, the one of their biological sex.

    If you say that transgender people are in danger in the facility of their biological sex and that should be taken seriously, why are women’s fears of same dismissed? You can’t have it both ways.


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    #5210
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    My mom thinks I’m cool. :(

    hasnt been my most productive day off all right


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    #5211
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    There is a bathroom or changing facility available to everyone who changes gender, the one of their biological sex.

    If you say that transgender people are in danger in the facility of their biological sex and that should be taken seriously, why are women’s fears of same dismissed? You can’t have it both ways.

    Never said they were in danger.
    Probably someone else.


    If a woman doesn't want to share the space with a trans they can move or wait till they are finished.


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    #5212
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    20Cent wrote: »
    Never said they were in danger.
    Probably someone else.


    If a woman doesn't want to share the space with a trans they can move or wait till they are finished.

    Or the transwoman or transman can use the facilities of their biological sex. Literally nobody had no place they can go to change. There are options for all. Why should a biological woman have to work around the transgender woman?


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    #5213
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Or the transwoman or transman can use the facilities of their biological sex. Literally nobody had no place they can go to change. There are options for all. Why should a biological woman have to work around the transgender woman?

    With that "solution" the transman with a beard, hairy chest and a dick will be in the womens and the transwoman with breasts and a vagina in the mens.

    Doesn't really change things.


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    #5214
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    20Cent wrote: »
    Gas people who wouldn't even want to allow trans people in bathrooms or changing rooms asking what right they are denied.

    It's a form of one of the arguments that was used against gay marriage - you see gay people were already perfectly entitled to get married (as long as they married someone of the opposite sex)

    Similarly trans people can use the bathroom/changing room of their birth sex, no matter how much their appearance would make them stick out there or how dangerous it would be for them to do so.

    I don't even see how you could enforce a law saying trans people have to use whichever changing-room/bathroom matches with the sex they were assigned at birth. Who is going to be going around checking people's genitalia? And on what grounds?

    'Excuse me, but your hips are suspiciously narrow and I think your gait is very manly - PANTS DOWN. NOW!'

    Imagine doing that to someone who is just trying to go to the loo :(.


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    #5215
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    B0jangles wrote: »
    It's a form of one of the arguments that was used against gay marriage - you see gay people were already perfectly entitled to get married (as long as they married someone of the opposite sex)

    Similarly trans people can use the bathroom/changing room of their birth sex, no matter how much their appearance would make them stick out there or how dangerous it would be for them to do so.

    I don't even see how you could enforce a law saying trans people have to use whichever changing-room/bathroom matches with the sex they were assigned at birth. Who is going to be going around checking people's genitalia? And on what grounds?

    'Excuse me, but your hips are suspiciously narrow and I think your gait is very manly - PANTS DOWN. NOW!'

    Imagine doing that to someone who is just trying to go to the loo :(.

    Sigh. I was very much for gay marriage. In the interests of transparency, I didn’t get to vote in the referendum because of severe health problems I was going through. But I was ‘Yes’ all the way.

    I cannot believe people cite danger to transgender people in the facility of their biological sex but then dismiss women’s safety fears on the same topic. I just can’t understand that. Such dissonance.

    You’ve highlighted the issue. We CAN’T police it. So somebody can claim they are self-IDing and use the facilities of the opposite biological sex.


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    #5216
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

    You’ve highlighted the issue. We CAN’T police it. So somebody can claim they are self-IDing and use the facilities of the opposite biological sex.

    which they have the full right to do, already


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    #5217
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Sigh. I was very much for gay marriage. In the interests of transparency, I didn’t get to vote in the referendum because of severe health problems I was going through. But I was ‘Yes’ all the way.

    I cannot believe people cite danger to transgender people in the facility of their biological sex but then dismiss women’s safety fears on the same topic. I just can’t understand that. Such dissonance.


    I have no doubt you did, and do support gay rights. I just don't see how you can miss the very close likeness between the arguments that were made against gay rights and those being made trans rights. They are in many ways the same dang arguments.

    If a person is in a bathroom or changing room and behaving in a way which is making other people uncomfortable, they can be reported to the management of the facility. If they commit a crime they can be charged. The vast vast majority of trans people just want to get in and get out of such places with the minimum of fuss.

    Ostracising all trans people because a criminal might pretend to be trans in order to harass or attack women would be grossly unfair.


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    #5218
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    bluewolf wrote: »
    which they have the full right to do, already

    They have had that right for the last five years in Ireland.
    Has there been any instances of people using it to perv on people in changing rooms.

    Nope.


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    #5219
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    bluewolf wrote: »
    which they have the full right to do, already

    Yup. Nobody is going to ask anyone for a gender recognition cert and I don’t know if they’d be entitled to that information anyway. So self-ID can easily be abused. But lol, silly broads. What are they worried about?


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    #5220
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    B0jangles wrote: »
    I have no doubt you did, and do support gay rights. I just don't see how you can miss the very close likeness between the arguments that were made against gay rights and those being made trans rights. They are in many ways the same dang arguments.

    So how to you reconcile transgender people’s fears of using the facilities of their biological sex with the fears biological women have of sharing with self-IDing transwomen? Why are women’s fears dismissed?


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    #5221
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Yup. Nobody is going to ask anyone for a gender recognition cert and I don’t know if they’d be entitled to that information anyway. So self-ID can easily be abused. But lol, silly broads. What are they worried about?

    definitely not rates of assault
    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

    definitely not all the threats against women
    https://terfisaslur.com/

    no comparison with gay rights at all. zero. nearly the opposite


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