Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Tony EH

I think this thread has stopped being about Jordan Peterson.

20Cent

bluewolf wrote: »

definitely not rates of assault
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

definitely not all the threats against women
https://terfisaslur.com/

no comparison with gay rights at all. zero. particularly from the homophobic ones.

Article one no mention of trans people.
Article two is nothing to do with changing rooms and a load of tweets.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Tony EH wrote: »

I think this thread has stopped being about Jordan Peterson.

Threads evolve.

Tony EH

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Threads evolve.

They certainly do ODB, they certainly do.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I cannot believe people cite danger to transgender people in the facility of their biological sex but then dismiss women’s safety fears on the same topic. I just can’t understand that. Such dissonance.

Whenever a conflict arises between women's rights and trans rights, the trans activists expect their agenda to take precedence.

Woman's Place UK, which supports the right of natural-born women to their own segregated paces, has been described as a "hate group" in a pledge signed by several top figures in the Labour Party, including leadership contenders Lisa Nandy and Rebecca Long-Bailey.

Women are expected to sacrifice privacy, safety, and athletic accomplishment to the trans agenda — and those who object are being bullied, threatened, and harassed into silence. A female Oxford professor is now under police protection after receiving credible threats. And we're supposed to believe this represents progress?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

B0jangles wrote: »

I have no doubt you did, and do support gay rights. I just don't see how you can miss the very close likeness between the arguments that were made against gay rights and those being made trans rights. They are in many ways the same dang arguments.

If a person is in a bathroom or changing room and behaving in a way which is making other people uncomfortable, they can be reported to the management of the facility. If they commit a crime they can be charged. The vast vast majority of trans people just want to get in and get out of such places with the minimum of fuss.

Ostracising all trans people because a criminal might pretend to be trans in order to harass or attack women would be grossly unfair.

No doubt. That holds for the majority of people. But transgender people cite safety fears of using the facility of their biological sex. Fine but it’s hypocritical to then dismiss women’s safety fears in changing rooms and toilets. You can’t have it both ways.

B0jangles

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So how to you reconcile transgender people’s fears of using the facilities of their biological sex with the fears biological women have of sharing with self-IDing transwomen? Why are women’s fears dismissed?

I am a woman myself and I have no fear of sharing a space with a trans woman. The possibility of being assaulted in a bathroom or changing room exists certainly, I do not think it is significantly altered by the presence of trans women in those spaces.



I do sympathise with women who have had experiences with men that have made them deeply fearful of anyone who appears male in any way, but I do not think that fear that justifies the total ostracisation of trans people.

CtevenSrowder

20Cent wrote: »

They have had that right for the last five years in Ireland.
Has there been any instances of people using it to perv on people in changing rooms.

Nope.

How do you know?

One eyed Jack

20Cent wrote: »

She didn't say most babies are intersex.
She said babies are born without sex.
This is true.

It’s not true though, no matter how much anyone wants it to be true. Sex is a biological matter, not a psychological matter. Humans are either born male or female. Some humans are born with ambiguous sex characteristics, but that doesn’t mean they are neither of the male or female sex. To claim that anyone is born without sex is simply a falsehood as bad as claiming that a person can change their sex. Humans cannot do that either, it’s simply biologically, scientifically and medically impossible.

Gynoid

Slavoj Zizek, the stuttering Marxist so many here seem to love, advocates for third spaces. Many transgender people advocate for third spaces. It is the fairest solution.

Because not all transwomen are a threat to females but some are. If you say it never happens you will find many very disturbing examples here - https://www.womenarehuman.com/
The numbers of assaults increases all the time.


A transwoman who has self identified as female has the same sex drive and muscle mass as a man. Male sex offense rates are far higher than female rates (By the way this does not mean men are more generally physically abusive than women, those figures of general abuse may be far closer, but in terms of sexual attack rates by males are much higher).

The population of transwomen and especially those who may self ID with no chemical or surgical change will sexually offend at the same RATE as the male population. This is logical and rational.
Note - hormones and surgery are becoming less popular among the trans population because of the dreadful harm they cause including loss of sexual potency and pleasure.

The population of natal women and girls deserve SAFEGUARDING.

The UN fights campaigns in the developing world for single sex spaces including toilets for girls precisely because girls do not attend school due to high levels of sexual assault in communal or unisex toilets.

Safeguarding women and girls from a higher rate of sexual assault trumps the rights of those who identify as females to enter their sex-protected spaces. I for one will not accept an attrition rate of sexually assaulted girls/ women, to satisfy activists. A third space is the solution.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

B0jangles wrote: »

I am a woman myself and I have no fear of sharing a space with a trans woman. The possibility of being assaulted in a bathroom or changing room exists certainly, I do not think it is significantly altered by the presence of trans women in those spaces.



I do sympathise with women who have had experiences with men that have made them deeply fearful of anyone who appears male in any way, but I do not think that fear that justifies the total ostracisation of trans people.

That’s great but not all women feel the same as you.

The second bolded part - do you not realise how silly that sounds when transgender people’s fears about facilities are treated with nothing but compassion? No woman is fearful of “anyone who appears male”. We just need protections from the minority.

Transpeople do have facilities - the facility of their biological sex.

20Cent

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s not true though, no matter how much anyone wants it to be true. Sex is a biological matter, not a psychological matter. Humans are either born male or female. Some humans are born with ambiguous sex characteristics, but that doesn’t mean they are neither of the male or female sex. To claim that anyone is born without sex is simply a falsehood as bad as claiming that a person can change their sex. Humans cannot do that either, it’s simply biologically, scientifically and medically impossible.

People do change their sex.
So it is true.
Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

CtevenSrowder

20Cent wrote: »

People do change their sex.
So it is true.
Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

This is quite simply unbelievable. An absurdity. People do not change their sex. Show me an example of someone in the scientific literature who has changed their biological sex as opposed to their gender.

20Cent

If these spaces are divided by biologigal or chromosome sex then this man would be in the ladies.




And this woman in the mens.




Doesn't change the issue really.

CtevenSrowder

20Cent wrote: »

If these spaces are divided by biologigal or chromosome sex then this man would be in the ladies.




Doesn't change the issue really.

Neither of those people have nor can change their sex.

Gynoid

20Cent wrote: »

People do change their sex.
So it is true.
Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

They do not change sex. People change gender.
Their chromosones remain those of their natal sex. Their reaction to medicine and blood products remains that of their natal sex. Etc etc

Many trans people are very vocal about the absurdity of claiming people ACTUALLY change sex. Fionne Orlander. Debbie Hayton. Jenn Smith. Blaire White. Many more. It is a biological lie to say people change sex, they cannot. It is harsh for those who are uncomfortable in their natal bodies but they can change gender, they can change gender expression. Many find confort in that reality and that is good. I cannot change into a tall person, or a Chinese person. I just cannot.

20Cent

Gynoid wrote: »

They do not change sex. People change gender.
Their chromosones remain those of their natal sex. Their reaction to medicine and blood products remains that of their natal sex. Etc etc

Many trans people are very vocal about the absurdity of claiming people ACTUALLY change sex. Fionne Orlander. Debbie Hayton. Jenn Smith. Blaire White. Many more. It is a biological lie to say people change sex, they cannot. It is harsh for those who are uncomfortable in their natal bodies but they can change gender, they can change gender expression. Many find confort in that reality and that is good. I cannot change into a tall person, or a Chinese person. I just cannot.

Sex gender whatever play semantics with someone else.
Boring.

B0jangles

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That’s great but not all women feel the same as you.

The second bolded part - do you not realise how silly that sounds when transgender people’s fears about facilities are treated with nothing but compassion? No woman is fearful of “anyone who appears male”. We just need protections from the minority.

Transpeople do have facilities - the facility of their biological sex.

Like someone else said, how would that work when the trans man (born biologically female) looks like a burly bearded man?


He walks into the bathroom and the women there who are made uncomfortable by the presence of male person will just psychically know that 'he' is actually 'she' on the chromosomal level? They won't be distressed and upset because as far as they can tell by looking, a man has just walked into a woman's space?

Gynoid

20Cent wrote: »

Sex gender whatever play semantics with someone else.
Boring.

Sex and gender are different.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

B0jangles wrote: »

Like someone else said, how would that work when the trans man (born biologically female) looks like a burly bearded man?


He walks into the bathroom and the women there who are made uncomfortable by the presence of male person will just psychically know that 'he' is actually 'she' on the chromosomal level? They won't be distressed and upset because as far as they can tell by looking, a man has just walked into a woman's space?

That person would probably still read as a woman to many. Transgender people do their best to pass but something usually betrays them. Movement being the one I tend to pick up on. And how many transmen are burly and have big bushy beards? Meanwhile passing as female is even harder again.

The bottom line is that for transactivists is that transgender’s people fears of assault is taken seriously but women’s fears of same are handwaved away.

20Cent

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That person would probably still read as a woman to many. Transgender people do their best to pass but something usually betrays them. Movement being the one I tend to pick up on. And how many transmen are burly and have big bushy beards? Meanwhile passing as female is even harder again.

Doubt that's a statistic that has been counted.
The transman I met had one, getting stubble is a big deal for them.

Google transman with beard and look at the images.
Imagine any of them walking into a women's changing room.

B0jangles

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That person would probably still read as a woman to many. Transgender people do their best to pass but something usually betrays them. Movement being the one I tend to pick up on. And how many transmen are burly and have big bushy beards? Meanwhile passing as female is even harder again.

It seems very weird to me that anyone would be so closely analysing the appearance or gait of a person they pass in a public bathroom or in a changingroom.

I know when I use such places I go in, use the space, and leave. I spend no time staring at strangers to see if they have any 'tells' that suggest they might possibly be trans

One eyed Jack

20Cent wrote: »

People do change their sex.
So it is true.
Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Unless you’re using some trickery of language that I’m unaware of, your statement is simply false. It’s that sort of clear intention to deceive people that makes them very wary of your motives.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

20Cent wrote: »

Doubt that's a statistic that has been counted.
The transman I met had one, getting stubble is a big deal for them.

Google transman with beard and look at the images.
Imagine any of them walking into a women's changing room.

So... then they can use the men’s facilities if they pass. And as women are at a significant physical disadvantage to men, it’s easy to see why it would be less of an issue. Though if a man doesn’t want to change around a transman, that’s also valid. It’s not an easy topic but dismissing those with objections as bigots doesn’t help.

B0jangles wrote: »

It seems very weird to me that anyone would be so closely analysing the appearance or gait of a person they pass in a public bathroom or in a changingroom.

I know when I use such places I go in, use the space, and leave. I spend no time staring at strangers to see if they have any 'tells' that suggest they might possibly be trans

I’m talking about videos I have watched about various topics where I’ve noticed. I’m not analysing people. But a lot of it would be instinctual anyway. AND with self-ID, no transitioning is required. I think I’d be uncomfortable changing next to a biological man at any time but definitely as a teenager, it would have been deeply uncomfortable. But, lol, what a transphobe I am. It’s disturbing to me that women are having a hand in relinquishing our hard-won sex-based rights.

20Cent

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’m talking about videos I have watched about various topics where I’ve noticed. I’m not analysing people. But a lot of it would be instinctual anyway. AND with self-ID, no transitioning is required. I think I’d be uncomfortable changing next to a biological man at any time but definitely as a teenager, it would been deeply uncomfortable. But, lol, what a transphobe I am. It’s disturbing to me that women are having a hand in relinquishing our hard-won sex-based rights.

This is a biological female.
According to you they should use the women's.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

20Cent wrote: »

This is a biological female.
According to you they should use the women's.

Have you been reading the reasons why women are wary about their spaces being invaded?

But actually, I’d like to hear men’s thoughts on transmen using men’s facilities. I come at it from a female perspective, natch.

20Cent

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Have you been reading the reasons why women are wary about their spaces being invaded?

But actually, I’d like to hear men’s thoughts on transmen using men’s facilities. I come at it from a female perspective, natch.

Yes they are saying they would feel uncomfortable sharing a space with someone biologically male. The person in that photo is biologically female. How would anyone even know.

Personally I could not care less who I share a bathroom or changing room with.

Gynoid

20Cent wrote: »

This is a biological female.

Aha. We have white smoke. This IS a biological female. Their gender expression is male, their body has responded to very high doses of testosterone, they have had surgery to remove breasts, likely womb and ovaries and they have possibly had a phalloplasty. They look great. Their dysphoria is hopefully much relieved. Hopefully their natal female physiology is not too stressed by the high dose male hormones. Up to 80% of natal females on testosterone experience severe pain at orgasm. Buck Angel talks about this, how his womb and cervix fused and became septic. The risk of cardiovascular problems is 11 in 100,000 now as opposed to 3 in 100,000 before testosterone. Higher risks of liver cancer. PCOS increases. Migraines and epilepsy increase if present pre testosterone. This transman looks great but it is at a high cost in the body systems.


Third spaces are the way forward for the comfort and safeguarding of all. A third space may mean that in future all public facilities are self sufficient contained units, but where this cannot be afforded, then a third space will help safeguard against collateral damage for all concerned.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gynoid wrote: »

Aha. We have white smoke. This IS a biological female. Their gender expression is male, their body has responded to very high doses of testosterone, they have had surgery to remove breasts, likely womb and ovaries and they have possibly had a phalloplasty. They look great. Their dysphoria is hopefully much relieved. Hopefully their natal female physiology is not too stressed by the high dose male hormones. Up to 80% of natal females on testosterone experience severe pain at orgasm. Buck Angel talks about this, how his womb and cervix fused and became septic. The risk of cardiovascular problems is 11 in 100,000 now as opposed to 3 in 100,000 before testosterone. Higher risks of liver cancer. PCOS increases. Migraines and epilepsy increase if present pre testosterone. This transman looks great but it is at a high cost in the body systems.


Third spaces are the way forward for the comfort and safeguarding of all. A third space may mean that in future all public facilities are self sufficient contained units, but where this cannot be afforded, then a third space will help safeguard against collateral damage for all concerned.

I think self-contained units are the way too go too but they are not possible everywhere. I’ve used unisex bathrooms and they are always self-contained, sealed rooms. That’s the only way to please everyone but it’s a lot of hoop-jumping to go through. This isn’t like disabled access.

20Cent

Gynoid wrote: »

Aha. We have white smoke. This IS a biological female. Their gender expression is male, their body has responded to very high doses of testosterone, they have had surgery to remove breasts, likely womb and ovaries and they have possibly had a phalloplasty. They look great. Their dysphoria is hopefully much relieved. Hopefully their natal female physiology is not too stressed by the high dose male hormones. Up to 80% of natal females on testosterone experience severe pain at orgasm. Buck Angel talks about this, how his womb and cervix fused and became septic. The risk of cardiovascular problems is 11 in 100,000 now as opposed to 3 in 100,000 before testosterone. Higher risks of liver cancer. PCOS increases. Migraines and epilepsy increase if present pre testosterone. This transman looks great but it is at a high cost in the body systems.


Third spaces are the way forward for the comfort and safeguarding of all. A third space may mean that in future all public facilities are self sufficient contained units, but where this cannot be afforded, then a third space will help safeguard against collateral damage for all concerned.

Why should transwomen have to share with the transmen if it's so dangerous?