Jordan Peterson interview on C4

20Cent · 19-02-2020 04:46PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

sorry to pedantic but surely some babies may be born with gender dysphoria, babies are not "trans".

Don't know the scientific terminology but some babies born with a penis go on to become women and vice versa. What Dawn Butler said is correct, but a tiny number.

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 04:47PM

20Cent wrote: »

What Dawn Butler said is correct, but a tiny number.

Ok...so you agree that babies are born without sex?

19-02-2020 04:49PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

OK, so say somebody has legally gone about changing their gender status (something which you'll know takes years and is very difficult) they've had operations, they've physically assimilated into their correct gender, would you have an issue with that person using that gender's changing room?

We have self id in Ireland. It doesn't take years nor is it difficult, you send off a form

20Cent · 19-02-2020 04:51PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Ok...so you agree that babies are born without sex?

Think gender is a more appropriate word than she used.
Clearly they are unless you think trans people are having all those operations for the craic.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 04:55PM

bluewolf wrote: »

We have self id in Ireland. It doesn't take years nor is it difficult, you send off a form

https://www.thejournal.ie/trans-transgender-ireland-transitioning-health-hse-doctors-surgery-4759414-Aug2019/

Reading this and in my own experience with friends who have, or a couple who are currently, transitioning I don't believe it is a simply experience at all.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 04:56PM

bluewolf wrote: »

We have self id in Ireland. It doesn't take years nor is it difficult, you send off a form

It's been the case for the last 5 years.
230 people have used it.

The idea that loads of men will use it to go into women's spaces if demonstrably false.

19-02-2020 04:56PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/trans-transgender-ireland-transitioning-health-hse-doctors-surgery-4759414-Aug2019/

Reading this and in my own experience with friends who have, or a couple who are currently, transitioning I don't believe it is a simply experience at all.

You said legally changing takes years. We have self id
Medically changing is another story

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 04:57PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

OK, so say somebody has legally gone about changing their gender status (something which you'll know takes years and is very difficult) they've had operations, they've physically assimilated into their correct gender, would you have an issue with that person using that gender's changing room?

I’d more on board though sorry to say, assimilation can never be complete. The big giveaway for me is physical movements. But yeah, if they were clearly dedicated to the transition, I’d be on board. Self ID being the only requirement? No, just no.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 04:58PM

bluewolf wrote: »

You said legally changing takes years. We have self id
Medically changing is another story

But our prison system is still set up whereby gender is determined by natal sex in Ireland.

19-02-2020 05:01PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

But our prison system is still set up whereby gender is determined by natal sex in Ireland.

No, male sex offender in the dochas centre

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261.amp

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 05:02PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’d more on board though sorry to say, assimilation can never be complete. The big giveaway for me is physical movements. But yeah, if they were clearly dedicated to the transition, I’d be on board. Self ID being the only requirement? No, just no.

OK. A guy turning up to an athletics event saying "I'm a woman let me in" I wouldn't be on board with. Thing is though something like that basically never happens anyway. The people who are passionate about this stuff, because it is literally their entire life, are people who more often than not transition, who live their life by the gender they believe that they should be. I think if somebody lives their life as that gender they should be treated as such.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 05:02PM

B0jangles wrote: »

I am so disappointed to find out that posters I liked and respected are so proudly transphobic.

I’ve learned from this thread that the word ‘transphobic’ now rolls off my back.

Bring it.

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 05:03PM

20Cent wrote: »

Think gender is a more appropriate word than she used.
Clearly they are unless you think trans people are having all those operations for the craic.

ok babies are born one sex or the other. Intersex babies can have traits from both sexes.

No I don't think people transition for the craic. I also don't think that the transitioning process makes the person the other sex. It may mimic some of the features of the other sex but that's as far as the technology can go at present.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 05:04PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

But our prison system is still set up whereby gender is determined by natal sex in Ireland.

Untrue.

Currently, a pre-operative, pre-hormone therapy, male-to-female transgender prisoner is being held in Limerick women’s prison.

This is understood to be the first time that an inmate, registered as male at birth, has been housed in a women’s prison in Ireland.

When before the court last July, the prisoner was in possession of a gender recognition certificate.

It is understood that the prisoner was assigned a high level of monitoring after being convicted of ten counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child.

The prisoner is accompanied by two officers at all times while in the common areas of the detention facility.

“The Irish Prison Service must accept all prisoners into custody, into whatever prison that a judge orders,” Minister Charlie Flanagan said in response to a parliamentary question from Aontú TD Peadar Tóibín, on 12 September.

19-02-2020 05:04PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

OK. A guy turning up to an athletics event saying "I'm a woman let me in" I wouldn't be on board with. Thing is though something like that basically never happens anyway. The people who are passionate about this stuff, because it is literally their entire life, are people who more often than not transition, who live their life by the gender they believe that they should be. I think if somebody lives their life as that gender they should be treated as such.

I don't know of any cases in ireland but legally we have self id so it can. In the states, girls are losing scholarships over this. Someone who transitioned knocked a couple women off in weightlifting for some qualifying event that i understand was their gateway to the olympics or some such.
If its a problem elsewhere and we have no barriers to it here then we should be aware. Fallon fox breaking a woman's jaw should have been enough tbh. She was quoted afterwards saying the difference in strength straight away was scary.
Secondary school lads can and will break top female athlete running records. Just no comparison

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 05:05PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

OK. A guy turning up to an athletics event saying "I'm a woman let me in" I wouldn't be on board with. Thing is though something like that basically never happens anyway. The people who are passionate about this stuff, because it is literally their entire life, are people who more often than not transition, who live their life by the gender they believe that they should be. I think if somebody lives their life as that gender they should be treated as such.

That literally happened in Connecticut. There is lawsuit going on at the moment about it.

I don’t think men who transition should be in women’s sports because most of the physical advantages remain. And if a boy transitions before puberty and doesn’t gain those advantages, that’s also unethical because those blockers shouldn’t be given to children.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 05:06PM

bluewolf wrote: »

No, male sex offender in the dochas centre

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261.amp

Realistically how often does this happen? Again we've already gone over how trans people tend to be almost 50% less likely to commit sexual assault than cis people. The person linked in your article is a horrible person. Any sex offender is a horrible person. Using 1 horrible person as a crutch to beat an at risk minority is not fair.

19-02-2020 05:07PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Realistically how often does this happen? Again we've already gone over how trans people tend to be almost 50% less likely to commit sexual assault than cis people. The person linked in your article is a horrible person. Any sex offender is a horrible person. Using 1 horrible person as a crutch to beat an at risk minority is not fair.

Nobody is beating anyone but it can happen, it has happened, and women should not be put at risk of assault in the interest of "fairness". It happened in the uk. It happened in canada. It is happening and women are at risk too. We're not sacrifices for political correctness.

At least the person in the dochas centre is being guarded 24/7 but i don't know how sustainable that is

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 05:08PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That literally happened in Connecticut. There is lawsuit going on at the moment about it.

I don’t think men who transition should be in women’s sports because most of the physical advantages remain. And if a boy transitions before puberty and doesn’t gain those advantages, that’s also unethical because those blockers shouldn’t be given to children.

Then that board needs to look at their rules and regulations. From a competitive point of view testing is in place, if anything it's becoming more and more stringent. To be very honest, in all my time in LGBTQ groups and of the trans people I've come across, a small percentage of them have any interest in sport. Something like that is for sporting bodies to consider, again it's not a reason to deny a person rights.

19-02-2020 05:10PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Then that board needs to look at their rules and regulations. From a competitive point of view testing is in place, if anything it's becoming more and more stringent. To be very honest, in all my time in LGBTQ groups and of the trans people I've come across, a small percentage of them have any interest in sport. Something like that is for sporting bodies to consider, again it's not a reason to deny a person rights.

Which rights are being denied?

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 05:10PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Nobody is beating anyone but it can happen, it has happened, and women should not be put at risk of assault in the interest of "fairness". It happened in the uk. It happened in canada. It is happening and women are at risk too. We're not sacrifices for political correctness.

At least the person in the dochas centre is being guarded 24/7 but i don't know how sustainable that is

But how would that person fair in a mens prison? If they've transitioned, they'd be preyed upon by male prisoners, an easy target.

19-02-2020 05:11PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

But how would that person fair in a mens prison? If they've transitioned, they'd be preyed upon by male prisoners, an easy target.

Women are preyed upon by people like "karen white" as easy targets. There are no easy answers here and putting women at risk like they did in the uk is not an answer

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 05:13PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Then that board needs to look at their rules and regulations. From a competitive point of view testing is in place, if anything it's becoming more and more stringent. To be very honest, in all my time in LGBTQ groups and of the trans people I've come across, a small percentage of them have any interest in sport. Something like that is for sporting bodies to consider, again it's not a reason to deny a person rights.

It doesn’t matter if it’s a small amount, it will still skew things badly. I believe 2000 men in the world can run the 100m faster than the women’s Olympic champion. We’ve seen out of shape, self IDing men top podiums beside lithe, honed women.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 05:13PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Women are preyed upon by people like "karen white" as easy targets. There are no easy answers here and putting women at risk like they did in the uk is not an answer

But what is your solution?

If a man has medically transitioned, has legally transitioned into a woman, where would you put that person?

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 05:14PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Realistically how often does this happen?

How many anatomically male sex offenders would have to be incarcerated in women's prisons for you to take it seriously?

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

To be very honest, in all my time in LGBTQ groups and of the trans people I've come across, a small percentage of them have any interest in sport.

How many anatomical males would have to dominate women's sports for you to take it seriously?

The mother of a female Connecticut high-school athlete writes:

Since 2017, our state’s high-school athletic conference has allowed biological boys to compete against girls. It’s enough that they subjectively identify as female. Since then, two biological boys have won 15 women’s track championships, titles held by nine different girls in 2016.

Not only that, the same two biological boys have taken away more than 50 chances for girls to compete at the next level of competition, running these girls right off the track and forcing them to be spectators in their own sport.

Of course, there's no real problem here because, according to you, trans individuals generally aren't all that interested in sports.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 05:17PM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

How many anatomically male sex offenders would have to be incarcerated in women's prisons for you to take it seriously?

How many anatomical males would have to dominate women's sports for you to take it seriously? The mother of a Connecticut athlete writes:

Of course, there's no real problem here because, according to you, trans individuals generally aren't all that interested in sports.

Well Permabear how many trans people do you know that are interested in sport from your own personal experience? Is it possible that you're reading a little too much into 1 or 2 stories and you've reached the conclusion that it's a pandemic? Infact would you say that, by and large, you never encounter a transgender person in your life, and, chances are, when you do, you don't even notice? That this sport, prison and bathroom problem is barely a problem at all in the grand scheme of things?

Titclamp · 19-02-2020 05:19PM

Well it took a man to be woman of the year.

19-02-2020 05:22PM

It is a very big problem for women who have dedicated their lives to their sport only to be pushed out and denied opportunities. I thought this was about empathy and compassion?
Do these women not matter because you haven't personally encountered them?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58d280efe4b02d33b7474cfd/amp

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a29578581/rachel-mckinnon-world-championship-masters-win-transgender-sport-debate/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/16/stripped-womens-records-transgender-powerlifter-asks-where-do-we-draw-line/%3foutputType=amp

https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/pluralist.com/hannah-mouncey-transgender-handball/amp/

Or women who just want to play casually?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/rugby-union/49298550

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 05:24PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Well Permabear how many trans people do you know that are interested in sport from your own personal experience?

How many does it take? As the article notes, two anatomical males have won 15 women’s track championships in the state of Connecticut since 2017.

What incentive does that give girls to train hard for years and do their very best at their sport, knowing that there's a good likelihood they'll be beaten in the championship race by a boy?

This is taking equality of opportunity away from girls.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 05:29PM

Sporting bodies have rules about trans athletes.
It's not an insurmountable problem or a reason to discriminate.

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Comments