Jordan Peterson interview on C4

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 12:18PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

But your examples are so narrow and for those you would accost one of the most vulnerable minorities in or society?

I'm not "accosting" anybody.

Here in Ireland how many trans athletes do we have?

I have no idea.

How many examples do we have of trans athletes stealing a living or college degree from women due to perceived athletic advantages?

Wired is able to proclaim that "Transgender athletes are having a moment. At all levels of sport, they’re stepping onto the podium and into the headlines." But they are stepping onto the podium at the expense of natural-born girls and women, who are easily swept aside by biologically male competitors.

In Ireland how many trans people have been convicted of sexual assault in changing rooms (gendered or mixed)?

Again, you're missing the point. A typical response to transgender activism is to replace sex-segregated facilities with unisex ones. In other words, being more "inclusive" entails putting everyone in the same facilities, despite the fact that women and girls are more at risk there. But if women and girls are being sexually assaulted at higher rates in unisex facilities, so what? If schoolgirls are not drinking water during the day or refusing to go to school while on their periods so that they don't have to use unisex toilets, so what? It's all in the name of "progress."

Moving forward from that, how would you feel if only somebody who has gone through the arduous legal requirements to change their gender had access to these changing rooms, would you be OK with that?

I don't believe anyone can change their gender. A man can take all the hormones and go through all the surgical procedures he wants, but he will never become an actual woman.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 12:18PM

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

The person in that video isn't trans.

Trans people would have the same issues.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 12:24PM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

I'm not "accosting" anybody.

I have no idea.

Wired is able to proclaim that "Transgender athletes are having a moment. At all levels of sport, they’re stepping onto the podium and into the headlines." But they are stepping onto the podium at the expense of natural-born girls and women, who are easily swept aside by biologically male competitors.

Again, you're missing the point. A typical response to transgender activism is to replace sex-segregated facilities with unisex ones. In other words, being more "inclusive" entails putting everyone in the same facilities, despite the fact that women and girls are more at risk there. But if women and girls are being sexually assaulted at higher rates in unisex facilities, so what? If schoolgirls are not drinking water during the day or refusing to go to school while on their periods so that they don't have to use unisex toilets, so what? It's all in the name of "progress."

I don't believe anyone can change their gender. A man can take all the hormones and go through all the surgical procedures he wants, but he will never become an actual woman.

Out of interest then what's your solution?
Seems the only thing would be to ban them or segregate them.

That's not fair at all.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 12:27PM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

I'm not "accosting" anybody.

I have no idea.

Wired is able to proclaim that "Transgender athletes are having a moment. At all levels of sport, they’re stepping onto the podium and into the headlines." But they are stepping onto the podium at the expense of natural-born girls and women, who are easily swept aside by biologically male competitors.

Again, you're missing the point. A typical response to transgender activism is to replace sex-segregated facilities with unisex ones. In other words, being more "inclusive" entails putting everyone in the same facilities, despite the fact that women and girls are more at risk there. But if women and girls are being sexually assaulted at higher rates in unisex facilities, so what? If schoolgirls are not drinking water during the day or refusing to go to school while on their periods so that they don't have to use unisex toilets, so what? It's all in the name of "progress."

I don't believe anyone can change their gender. A man can take all the hormones and go through all the surgical procedures he wants, but he will never become an actual woman.

Oh no, you very much are. You're literally denying that a group of people exist.

Great. So the thing you have a big issue about, you don't know if it's ever actually occurred in the country that you live in. Meaning it's what? A boogeyman argument?

Where are they? I've tried googling it and all I've found is new rules coming in about testosterone levels in sport. You're so worked up but can you find me a single example of this happening in Ireland? The way you speak, its sounds like a pandemic, reality is it's not.

Honestly I think the right have some phobia of bathrooms more than anything. I asked earlier, if they have legally changed their gender, would you still deny them access to the bathroom of their gender? Yes or no.

And while you're entitled to your beliefs, it's that belief that makes you a bigot. That's just how it works.

B0jangles · 19-02-2020 12:35PM

I am so disappointed to find out that posters I liked and respected are so proudly transphobic.

You say stuff about transgender people that you'd find disgusting if it were said about gay people.

Imagine saying gay men/lesbians should be barred from changing rooms because they might start sexually harassing people? That they pose a risk to children simply by being present? Imagine being told at your gym that you cannot use the changing rooms anymore because another patron had heard you're gay and isn't comfortable changing near you any more?

Every trans person I've met or interacted with has just wanted to live their life in peace. They just want to get through the day without being harassed or stared at or treated like some kind of monster.

The idea that all trans people should be excluded because an individual who is trans, (or just uses the identity to gain access to private spaces) might commit a crime is so grossly unfair. What other minority would you be comfortable doing this to?

Trans people are suffering the same kind of ugly fearmomgering that gay people did, and sadly still sometimes do. Remember when they claimed that The Gays were turning Our Children gay with their magic gay propoganda?

It's exactly the same organisations doing the same thing, and people who'd utterly reject the message if it were about gay people are nodding along in perfect agreement now that the target is trans people.

sbsquarepants · 19-02-2020 12:54PM

B0jangles wrote: »

The idea that all trans people should be excluded because an individual who is trans, (or just uses the identity to gain access to private spaces) might commit a crime is so grossly unfair. What other minority would you be comfortable doing this to?.

I understand entirely where Permabear is coming from - i have young daughters and to be perfectly honest i'm more concerned about them than i am about strangers. You may "feel" like a woman, but i don't want you getting your hairy lady balls out around my kids - i honestly don't give a rats arse how that makes you feel, my kids are my priority, i care how they feel.

I have no issue with trans people, anyone who undergoes surgery and hormones etc to be a man / woman - fair play to them, i'll treat you just like any other man or a woman as the case may be. I don't think you ARE the exact same, but so what no 2 people are the exact same. I honestly don't care, it's your body, your life, have at it. If you want me to call you Mary instead of Martin, no problem whatsoever. I don't think you should be allowed compete as a woman however, if you've had the benefit of 10 or 15 odd years of testosterone, if a natural born woman took testosterone supplements for 10 years she'd be banned, and rightly so!

But...the idea of just self identification of gender, in the absence of any medical assistance or anything like that just seems like nonsense to me. I don't know maybe it makes perfect sense to someone else, but to me it's basically self indulgent, fantasist, bolloxology.

A man in a dress, is a man in a dress, it's not a woman.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 01:03PM

B0jangles wrote: »

I am so disappointed to find out that posters I liked and respected are so proudly transphobic.

You say stuff about transgender people that you'd find disgusting if it were said about gay people.

Imagine saying gay men/lesbians should be barred from changing rooms because they might start sexually harassing people? That they pose a risk to children simply by being present? Imagine being told at your gym that you cannot use the changing rooms anymore because another patron had heard you're gay and isn't comfortable changing near you any more?

Every trans person I've met or interacted with has just wanted to live their life in peace. They just want to get through the day without being harassed or stared at or treated like some kind of monster.

The idea that all trans people should be excluded because an individual who is trans, (or just uses the identity to gain access to private spaces) might commit a crime is so grossly unfair. What other minority would you be comfortable doing this to?

Trans people are suffering the same kind of ugly fearmomgering that gay people did, and sadly still sometimes do. Remember when they claimed that The Gays were turning Our Children gay with their magic gay propoganda?

It's exactly the same organisations doing the same thing, and people who'd utterly reject the message if it were about gay people are nodding along in perfect agreement now that the target is trans people.

Always look at whose around you. The same groups, the same people who were arguing against gay rights yesterday are the same groups, the same people arguing against trans people today. Are those groups, are those people you want to be associated with?

19-02-2020 01:05PM

Radfems were not the ones organising against gay people, lots of lesbians in there. Same ones getting shut down and kicked out of pride
The rise of female and lesbian erasure is not fear mongering, when there is actual state nhs literature telling young lesbians to get used to penis, and i will not support a campaign against women
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2020/02/17/whats-current-lesbian-event-removed-from-sydney-pride-due-to-accusations-of-transphobia-against-arielle-scarcella/

CtevenSrowder · 19-02-2020 01:11PM

20Cent wrote: »

Trans people would have the same issues.

But that person isn't trans like you stated. You are wrong, as per the course. It's a slimey attempt to portray non-binary and trans people as being one group with similar problems. They simply aren't. Trans peoples issues are far worse and real as opposed to the attention seeking NB lot latching onto the trans cause to give their movement some embers of respect.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 01:13PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Radfems were not the ones organising against gay people, lots of lesbians in there. Same ones getting shut down and kicked out of pride
The rise of female and lesbian erasure is not fear mongering, when there is actual state nhs literature telling young lesbians to get used to penis, and i will not support a campaign against women
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2020/02/17/whats-current-lesbian-event-removed-from-sydney-pride-due-to-accusations-of-transphobia-against-arielle-scarcella/

Picking and choosing minority cases to make it appear as though all lesbians are in agreement with that stance is misleading, particularly when the largest feminist group in America are in favour of trans rights.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 01:17PM

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

But that person isn't trans like you stated. You are wrong, as per the course. It's a slimey attempt to portray non-binary and trans people as being one group with similar problems. They simply aren't. Trans peoples issues are far worse and real as opposed to the attention seeking NB lot latching onto the trans cause to give their movement some embers of respect.

A trans person recently sued a barber shop in Dublin because they refused to cut his hair. It is a real issue and one they share with non binary people.

NB are just attention seeking?

20Cent · 19-02-2020 01:22PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Radfems were not the ones organising against gay people, lots of lesbians in there. Same ones getting shut down and kicked out of pride
The rise of female and lesbian erasure is not fear mongering, when there is actual state nhs literature telling young lesbians to get used to penis, and i will not support a campaign against women
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2020/02/17/whats-current-lesbian-event-removed-from-sydney-pride-due-to-accusations-of-transphobia-against-arielle-scarcella/

Do you think trans people should be banned from pride?

nhs literature telling young lesbians to get used to penis: Bull****.

CtevenSrowder · 19-02-2020 01:24PM

20Cent wrote: »

A trans person recently sued a barber shop in Dublin because they refused to cut his hair. It is a real issue and one they share with non binary people.

NB are just attention seeking?

Yes and? That person is legally a man. A non-binary person doesn't even believe in such concepts. The issues are completely different.

Yes, they are attentions seekers.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 01:26PM

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Yes and? That person is legally a man. A non-binary person doesn't even believe in such concepts. The issues are completely different.

Yes, they are attentions seekers.

You clearly have no idea what the topic of conversation is about.

B0jangles · 19-02-2020 01:32PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Radfems were not the ones organising against gay people, lots of lesbians in there. Same ones getting shut down and kicked out of pride
The rise of female and lesbian erasure is not fear mongering, when there is actual state nhs literature telling young lesbians to get used to penis, and i will not support a campaign against women
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2020/02/17/whats-current-lesbian-event-removed-from-sydney-pride-due-to-accusations-of-transphobia-against-arielle-scarcella/

What's this nhs literature you speak of? I just had a quick google and all I could find was a dailymail (yep) article freaking out that a guide about sexual health for women who have sex with women had a section about the possible need for condoms to be used if one of the women in a couple is trans but has not had surgery. I didn't see where they are instructing young lesbians they had to get used to penis?*

Also I believe Arielle Scarcella self-describes as a transphobe, it seems to be a major part of her public persona and her message. I can understand why an event which aims to be inclusive might have an issue with someone who wants to exclude an entire minority group.

Trans people are not trying to erase women, why would they do that?

*I think this is the guide in question:
https://www.lgbtyouth.org.uk/media/1633/good-sex-is-women.pdf
It was written in consultation with young people in Scotland and the section that has people up in arms appears to be:

"It is possible to become pregnant as soon as you have your first period (monthly bleeding from your vagina). If either you or your partner has a penis then you should always use a condom to prevent sperm from entering the vagina."

Which seems pretty uncontroversial to me, unless you think lesbians are likely to be traumatised by the very sight of the word 'penis'

19-02-2020 01:41PM

Arielle doesn't self describe as that at all, she's always been an ally and is friends with blaire white

Presenting it as fact that a young impressionable lesbian may be dealing with penis presents exactly that message. It's lgbt youth it's aimed at. I went on the actual nhs site at the time and read the leaflets. Didn't see any mention of young gay men getting used to vagina anywhere. Genuinely correct me if you find it. Thankfully a number of trans people don't seem to be in support of this - comes up a fair bit that lesbians are being harassed and told to 'reexamine their genital preferences'. straight out of 50s conversion therapy.

Decision about VRR being defunded seems to be coming up next week, this is the one that had dead rats nailed to it for refusing a trans woman a volunteer job (iirc)
https://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/learn/resources/discrimination-against-women-name-inclusion-statement-vancouver-rape-relief-and-wome

this is one of the prison cases i was referring to and an unfortunate consequence of self id which is why i have a problem with it
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 01:42PM

B0jangles wrote: »

I am so disappointed to find out that posters I liked and respected are so proudly transphobic.

I'm not remotely transphobic. I've already said in this thread that trans individuals should be free from harassment, violence, and discrimination.

However, I don't believe that a biological male can become a woman. And I don't believe that identifying as female should grant a biological male access to female-only facilities or athletic competitions.

I also don't believe it's economically feasible to provide separate facilities for a tiny percentage of the population. Imagine requiring a small coffee shop to spend thousands installing a trans/nonbinary bathroom that might be used once a week.

The oft-proposed solution of making everything unisex has negative repercussions, especially for girls and women, who are at much higher risk of sexual assault in unisex changing rooms. Girls are avoiding unisex toilets in schools by not drinking water during daytime, and some are not attending school at all while menstruating, because of voyeurism, harassment, and period-shaming from boys.

Freely admitting any male who claims to identify as female into segregated facilities also has problems. What's to stop a sex offender from donning a dress, posing as a woman, and walking into female-only changing rooms to ogle women and girls? Under the proposed new regime, absolutely nothing.

If it comes to it, women and girls are 50 percent of the population. Trans individuals are estimated as 0.6 percent of the population. Putting 50 percent at greater risk so that 0.6 percent can feel more accepted is silly.

Like it or not, these are real problems — and trans activists have no answers to them, so they just engage in victim blaming and name-calling. If a young girl feels uncomfortable undressing in front of adults with penises, she's the one with the problem. If a menstruating schoolgirl doesn't feel comfortable using the unisex bathrooms in her school, it's her problem again. If a lesbian doesn't want sex with people who have penises, she's a bigot.

Victim-blaming and name-calling will only get trans activists so far. Unless they can respond to real and legitimate concerns about their agenda, and stop dismissing critics with accusations of transphobia and bigotry, they are unlikely to succeed in the long run.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 01:47PM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

I'm not remotely transphobic. I've already said in this thread that trans individuals should be freed from harassment, violence, and discrimination.

However, I don't believe that a biological male can become a woman. And I don't believe that identifying as female should grant a biological male access to female-only facilities or athletic competitions.

I also don't believe it's economically feasible to provide separate facilities for a tiny percentage of the population. Imagine requiring a small coffee shop to spend thousands installing a trans bathroom that might be used once a week.

The oft-proposed solution of making everything unisex has negative repercussions, especially for girls and women, who are at much higher risk of sexual assault in unisex changing rooms. Girls are avoiding unisex toilets in schools by not drinking water during daytime, and some are not attending school at all while menstruating, because of voyeurism, harassment, and period-shaming from boys.

Freely admitting any male who claims to identify as female into segregated facilities also has problems. What's to stop a sex offender from donning a dress and walking into women's changing rooms? Under the proposed new regime, absolutely nothing.

If it comes to it, women and girls are 50 percent of the population. Trans individuals are estimated as 0.6 percent of the population. Putting 50 percent at greater risk so that 0.6 percent can feel more accepted is silly.

Like it or not, these are real problems — and trans activists have no answers to them, so they just engage in victim blaming. If a young girl feels uncomfortable undressing in front of adults with penises, she's the one with the problem. If a menstruating schoolgirl doesn't feel comfortable using the unisex bathrooms in her school, it's her problem again. If a lesbian doesn't want sex with people who have penises, she's a bigot.

Victim-blaming and name-calling will only get trans activists so far. Unless they can respond to real and legitimate concerns about their agenda, and stop dismissing critics with accusations of transphobia and bigotry, they are unlikely to get far.

Asked you several times to name a single example of a trans athlete competing causing controversy in Ireland and you haven't named a single instance. Asked you if a person who has legally assumed a different gender should be granted access to that bathroom, still no response.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 01:50PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Arielle doesn't self describe as that at all, she's always been an ally and is friends with blaire white

Presenting it as fact that a young impressionable lesbian may be dealing with penis presents exactly that message. It's lgbt youth it's aimed at. I went on the actual nhs site at the time and read the leaflets. Didn't see any mention of young gay men getting used to vagina anywhere. Genuinely correct me if you find it. Thankfully a number of trans people don't seem to be in support of this

It doesn't say "get used to", it just says one can get pregnant from sperm which I don't think is controversial even to conservatives. Maybe a lesbian chooses to have sex with a transwoman who hasn't transitioned. Only hysterical reaction or the Daily Mail would see that as get used to penis and lesbians should have sex with people with dicks.

B0jangles · 19-02-2020 01:50PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Arielle doesn't self describe as that at all, she's always been an ally and is friends with blaire white

Presenting it as fact that a young impressionable lesbian may be dealing with penis presents exactly that message. I went on the actual nhs site at the time and read the leaflets. Didn't see any mention of young gay men getting used to vagina anywhere. Genuinely correct me if you find it. Thankfully a number of trans people don't seem to be in support of this

Look, I don't know the woman in question at all, but going by the titles she gives her youtube videos she has absolutely no problem with being considered transphobic

I cannot understand your objection to the NHS leaflet at all - do you think its some kind of subliminal message to young lesbian women that they ought to be having sex involving penises? I just read it as an FYI: if your partner has a penis, you should use a condom to prevent unplanned pregnancy.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 01:52PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Asked you several times to name a single example of a trans athlete competing causing controversy in Ireland and you haven't named a single instance.

Why are you obsessed with athletes in Ireland, specifically? This is not an Ireland-specific concern. The increasing number of biological men competing against women in athletic competitions around the world is widely documented.

Asked you if a person who has legally assumed a different gender should be granted access to that bathroom, still no response.

I already told you that I don't believe it's possible for someone to "assume" a different gender — whether by hormonal, surgical, or legal means.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 01:52PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Look, I don't know the woman in question at all, but going by the titles she gives her youtube videos she has absolutely no problem with being considered transphobic

I cannot understand your objection to the NHS leaflet at all - do you think its some kind of subliminal message to young lesbian women that they ought to be having sex involving penises? I just read it as an FYI: if your partner has a penis, you should use a condom to prevent unplanned pregnancy.

The trans fear-mongering has taken quite the turn here. What an awful person she is to reference when you're trying to make out that you aren't a transphobe.

19-02-2020 01:53PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Look, I don't know the woman in question at all, but going by the titles she gives her youtube videos she has absolutely no problem with being considered transphobic

i'll have a look at the videos. i've been aware of her for a while as being exactly the opposite as she also does videos with blaire white so i'll hold my hands up if i'm out of date

I cannot understand your objection to the NHS leaflet at all - do you think its some kind of subliminal message to young lesbian women that they ought to be having sex involving penises?

i think it's a symptom of a wider issue that is happening in real life, and it's sexist.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 01:55PM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Why are you obsessed with athletes in Ireland, specifically? This is not an Ireland-specific concern. The increasing number of biological men competing against women in athletic competitions around the world is widely documented.

I already told you that I don't believe it's possible for someone to "assume" a different gender — whether by hormonal, surgical, or legal means.

We live in Ireland. We're on an Irish forum. I have no obsession with trans athletes. You do, or at least you pretend to as a stick to beat trans people with. So in the land in which you live if this pandemic is ruining female sports for you so much, why haven't you got any examples?

So tell me, in your opinion, why do trans people try to transition?

20Cent · 19-02-2020 01:55PM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Why are you obsessed with athletes in Ireland, specifically? This is not an Ireland-specific concern. The increasing number of biological men competing against women in athletic competitions around the world is widely documented.

And sports bodies are working on ways to deal with it.
Simply banning trans people from sports should not be an option.

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

I already told you that I don't believe it's possible for someone to "assume" a different gender — whether by hormonal, surgical, or legal means.

Science and the medical community disagree.

19-02-2020 01:57PM

the first line of that video is 'i've been told i'm transphobic for liking vagina. who i date is not up for debate'. also followed by 'trans women are women'
seems to be a clickbait title. top comment replies from trans women in full agreement with the message

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dumQfzcrOzk

exactly the same message that got her deplatformed from pride, it looks like

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 01:59PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

We live in Ireland. We're on an Irish forum.

In case you haven't noticed, you're on a thread discussing a Canadian psychology professor's appearance on a British news show. I'm not sure why you think this discussion should be about Ireland?

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 02:10PM

20Cent wrote: »

Who is requiring you to say things you don't believe?

trans activist. and it is in this that they diverge from gay rights campaigners. gay rights was live and let live. trans rights is live and let live AND you need to validate someone's dysphoria through language and access to women's spaces, sports etc....can people really not see the difference here?

CtevenSrowder · 19-02-2020 02:10PM

20Cent wrote: »

You clearly have no idea what the topic of conversation is about.

I think it's you that doesn't.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 02:14PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

trans activist. and it is in this that they diverge from gay rights campaigners. gay rights was live and let live. trans rights is live and let live AND you need to validate someone's dysphoria through language and access to women's spaces, sports etc....can people really not see the difference here?

How are they forcing you?

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Comments