The glorious 12th

downcow · 17-07-2019 5:49am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

According to the 2001 Census, 658,103 people (36% of the population) had "some knowledge of Irish" – of whom 559,670 were Catholics and 48,509 were Protestants and "other Christians".

You are again talking ill informed rubbish.

Define what was meant by ‘some knowledge of irish’. I would expect 100% to have some knowledge of Irish.

downcow · 17-07-2019 6:18am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

BTW how many protestants does this happen to?

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/catholic-man-left-for-dead-in-kilkeel-after-brutal-sectarian-attack-says-family-38317501.html

Seems to be this sort of vile attack tends to happen to catholics in Northern Ireland.

Orange fever?

I am stunned by the stuff some people believe here.
Here’s one wee example in the last couple of days. And unlike your case it was with drink taken late at night. This one is just pure sectarian hate in the middle of the day.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-48968109

lawred2 · 17-07-2019 7:36am

janfebmar wrote: »

No it is not. Everyone in the UK understands English, no need for the extra expense of bi-lingual signage.

Maybe you should ask Ryanair to make all its info and signage bi-linguial in Irish and English?

You really do need to get out more

janfebmar · 17-07-2019 9:02am

lawred2 wrote: »

You really do need to get out more

Do not worry about me, I get out plenty.
There is no need to go to the expense and bother of ugly and confusing bi-lingual signage on boards.ie, Ryanair, roads or anywhere else when everyone understands English. Use the Irish language section of boards.ie if you think there is a demand for Irish. Only a few posters a month do, last time I looked.

lawred2 · 17-07-2019 9:11am

janfebmar wrote: »

Do not worry about me, I get out plenty.
There is no need to go to the expense and bother of ugly and confusing bi-lingual signage on boards.ie, Ryanair, roads or anywhere else when everyone understands English. Use the Irish language section of boards.ie if you think there is a demand for Irish. Only a few posters a month do, last time I looked.

What's your obsession with looking for Irish usage on Ryanair and boards?

You clearly don't get out enough. Your insular inward looking mind is betrayed in every single post.

17-07-2019 9:13am

downcow wrote: »

I am stunned by the stuff some people believe here.
Here’s one wee example in the last couple of days. And unlike your case it was with drink taken late at night. This one is just pure sectarian hate in the middle of the day.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-48968109

There have been many many cases of catholics being badly beaten or killed by being badly beaten, often by mobs down the years. I rarely see the same happen to protestants. I just wonder why it appears to be a one way street with that level of violent hatred. It takes some level of hatred to beat someone to death.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 9:20am

downcow wrote: »

Define what was meant by ‘some knowledge of irish’. I would expect 100% to have some knowledge of Irish.

Well, if knowing 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' was the metric, it would indeed have been 100%, which leads me to believe that the metric was knowing a lot more.

The interesting figure is the amount of Protestants who know some and who clearly aren't dying of offence.

You still haven't told us on what grounds bilingual signs in the workplace would be 'offensive'.

Irish clearly isn't only the language of one 'tribe'.

firemansam4 · 17-07-2019 9:25am

downcow wrote:

Thank you. I genuinely want to engage and learn. My problem with your post , and I quote â€œon the 12th this burning of our flag happens on a massive scale in NI orchestrated by members of the OOâ€. Now can you give me one single example of this. I have been to the twelfth every year from age 1 to 54 and I have never seen this happen. Now if it is on a massive scale I guess you will easily educate me with a link or two.

So you are splitting hairs to avoid the question.
You know what I am talking about was the bon fires being lit on the 11th, it is all part of the 12th celebrations.

You say it's just a different younger crowd who attend these bon fires but we have seen photos of unionist politicians posing attending these bonfires, one a few years back trying to promote a charity.

So again can you answer the question I have asked you on why you think we should find this acceptable this side of the border?

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 9:32am

firemansam4 wrote: »

So you are splitting hairs to avoid the question.
You know what I am talking about was the bon fires being lit on the 11th, it is all part of the 12th celebrations.

You say it's just a different younger crowd who attend these bon fires but we have seen photos of unionist politicians posing attending these bonfires, one a few years back trying to promote a charity.

So again can you answer the question I have asked you on why you think we should find this acceptable this side of the border?

downcow will just wash his hands of the bits of the marching season that are undefensible...drunk, kids apparently. When every dog in the street knows that 11th night is planned with military precision with the aid of the loyalist military, who (we know, from the PSNI and some within the OO itself) are also attached to contentious and confrontational parades.

'Nothing to do me', iss the stock answer of downcow and unionist leaders.

Scoundrel · 17-07-2019 9:44am

downcow wrote: »

I am stunned by the stuff some people believe here.
Here’s one wee example in the last couple of days. And unlike your case it was with drink taken late at night. This one is just pure sectarian hate in the middle of the day.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-48968109

While throwing a stone through a window is reprehensible beating a man half to death because he's Catholic is just ever so slightly worse don't you think? Or did the uppity taig deserve it? As for the drink taken excuse? reprehensible attempt to excuse the naked bigotry of unionism/loyalism

downcow · 17-07-2019 9:52am

lawred2 wrote: »

What's your obsession with looking for Irish usage on Ryanair and boards?

You clearly don't get out enough. Your insular inward looking mind is betrayed in every single post.

I think it’s a really important point janfebmar is making. If there was a genuine need or demand out there for Irish then Ryanair and the likes would be straight on to it.
This is important in ascertaining if it is something there is a demand for.

downcow · 17-07-2019 9:54am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, if knowing 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' was the metric, it would indeed have been 100%, which leads me to believe that the metric was knowing a lot more.

The interesting figure is the amount of Protestants who know some and who clearly aren't dying of offence.

You still haven't told us on what grounds bilingual signs in the workplace would be 'offensive'.

Irish clearly isn't only the language of one 'tribe'.

Francie I have some knowledge of Irish. It’s a meaningless stat until we know the measure.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 9:56am

downcow wrote: »

Francie I have some knowledge of Irish. It’s a meaningless stat until we know the measure.

That is the standard way anywhere of estimating usage- the census.

downcow Please answer the question that has been asked quite a number of times now

downcow · 17-07-2019 9:58am

firemansam4 wrote: »

So you are splitting hairs to avoid the question.
You know what I am talking about was the bon fires being lit on the 11th, it is all part of the 12th celebrations.

You say it's just a different younger crowd who attend these bon fires but we have seen photos of unionist politicians posing attending these bonfires, one a few years back trying to promote a charity.

So again can you answer the question I have asked you on why you think we should find this acceptable this side of the border?

My point is you should educate yourself on the nuances of the various celebrations around the twelfth.
I could post on here endless riots, fighting, burning flags etc on st Patrick’s night - not just in Belfast but the world over. I have educated myself to understand that that is not typical of an actual st Patrick’s parade.
You just need to do likewise.
Or else be consistent and include the chaos of st Patrick’s night as part of the st Patrick’s celebration
You just can’t continue to have it both ways.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 9:59am

downcow wrote: »

I think it’s a really important point janfebmar is making. If there was a genuine need or demand out there for Irish then Ryanair and the likes would be straight on to it.
This is important in ascertaining if it is something there is a demand for.

It isn't up to you or Jan to ascertain the need or importance of it to people. Nor Unionists either.
That is like asking Turkey's to vote for Xmas etc etc

downcow · 17-07-2019 10:19am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It isn't up to you or Jan to ascertain the need or importance of it to people. Nor Unionists either.
That is like asking Turkey's to vote for Xmas etc etc

We are not francie. We are pointing out that all the big successful companies are deciding there’s no demand.
Well spotted janfebmar

RobMc59 · 17-07-2019 10:25am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It isn't up to you or Jan to ascertain the need or importance of it to people. Nor Unionists either.
That is like asking Turkey's to vote for Xmas etc etc

Francie, this is a British matter in Britain-how is it not Downcow's(British citizen)business ?
No disrespect but its actually you who it isn't up to,you are entitled to espress your opinion obviously but it has no bearing in British decisions or policies.

downcow · 17-07-2019 10:34am

Deleted User wrote: »

There have been many many cases of catholics being badly beaten or killed by being badly beaten, often by mobs down the years. I rarely see the same happen to protestants. I just wonder why it appears to be a one way street with that level of violent hatred. It takes some level of hatred to beat someone to death.

I think that is because you suffer from tunnel vision.
Earlier in this thread i stated how my small town moved from 40%+ protestant to well under 5% protestant. That was because of sectarian violence directed at the protestant community by catholics (I am sorry to put it that blunt but it seems you have no idea how protestants suffer at the hands of catholics).

I'll catalogue some of the stuff if you want it but I think even Francie etc would no that protestants had no monopoly on sectarianism in Ireland and people might get bored with me stating the obvious.

Your misconception is though very worrying but I guess not totally your fault

Pedro K · 17-07-2019 10:35am

downcow wrote: »

We are not francie. We are pointing out that all the big successful companies are deciding there’s no demand.
Well spotted janfebmar

I'll ask once more, since you've ignored it twice before, and then I'll drop it. What if signage had both English and Irish in it in equal prominence? What would be wrong with that?

downcow · 17-07-2019 10:38am

Pedro K wrote: »

I'll ask once more, since you've ignored it twice before, and then I'll drop it. What if signage had both English and Irish in it in equal prominence? What would be wrong with that?

I hadn't responded as i felt you were on the wind-up. Nobody has ever suggested doing away with English - mind you that would be entertaining.

Could you help me. Why is it important to you to have Irish signs up? - I genuinely would like to understand

_blaaz · 17-07-2019 10:49am

downcow wrote: »

Could you help me. Why is it important to you to have Irish signs up? - I genuinely would like to understand

Because its in ireland,hardly expecting too much to have irish signs in ireland??

Why is it yous are againest it

lawred2 · 17-07-2019 10:50am

downcow wrote: »

I hadn't responded as i felt you were on the wind-up. Nobody has ever suggested doing away with English - mind you that would be entertaining.

Could you help me. Why is it important to you to have Irish signs up? - I genuinely would like to understand

No you don't. That is clear for all and sundry.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 10:53am

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie, this is a British matter in Britain-how is it not Downcow's(British citizen)business ?
No disrespect but its actually you who it isn't up to,you are entitled to espress your opinion obviously but it has no bearing in British decisions or policies.

So the British have decided to deny language rights that they have given to Wales and Scotland?

That are they mandated to do under various agreements and treaties?

Yeh Rob? How do you stand over that 'decision'?

The fact is that Britain's commitments under the UN CEDAW recommendations forced them to introduce SSM and Abortion legislation.
They also have commitments under Language Rights if they remain in the EU and the St Andrew's Agreement and their hand will be forced there too if the DUP keep blocking.

As said, the DUP merrily drove into a cul-de-sac on this issue as well and it is only a matter of time before it backfires on them.

Pedro K · 17-07-2019 10:56am

downcow wrote: »

I hadn't responded as i felt you were on the wind-up. Nobody has ever suggested doing away with English - mind you that would be entertaining.

Could you help me. Why is it important to you to have Irish signs up? - I genuinely would like to understand

It's not important for me. I couldn't care less what language my signage is in. I'm trying to understand your objection to both languages being on signs.

Why are you against English and Irish being in equal prominence on signs?

RobMc59 · 17-07-2019 11:06am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So the British have decided to deny language rights that they have given to Wales and Scotland?

That are they mandated to do under various agreements and treaties?

Yeh Rob? How do you stand over that 'decision'?

The fact is that Britain's commitments under the UN CEDAW recommendations forced them to introduce SSM and Abortion legislation.
They also have commitments under Language Rights if they remain in the EU and the St Andrew's Agreement and their hand will be forced there too if the DUP keep blocking.

As said, the DUP merrily drove into a cul-de-sac on this issue as well and it is only a matter of time before it backfires on them.

It is complicated because a sizable number of British people in NI don't want Irish signage,if everyone agrees to it then it would be implemented as in Wales.
I know for a fact abortion has been available in Britain a lot longer than Ireland so don't know where you're getting some of your information from.

firemansam4 · 17-07-2019 11:10am

downcow wrote:

My point is you should educate yourself on the nuances of the various celebrations around the twelfth. I could post on here endless riots, fighting, burning flags etc on st Patrickâ€™s night - not just in Belfast but the world over. I have educated myself to understand that that is not typical of an actual st Patrickâ€™s parade. You just need to do likewise. Or else be consistent and include the chaos of st Patrickâ€™s night as part of the st Patrickâ€™s celebration You just canâ€™t continue to have it both ways.

We seem to be going round in circles here Downcow and I'm at the point of just giving up debating this with you.

There is nothing that happens on St Patrick's day that comes anywhere close to the mass bonfires and burning of flags around the 12th of July. Nothing!

You say I should educate myself on the celebrations around the twelfth, but that is beside the point.
I get what your saying about the 12th day celebrations being a family affair and being different to what happens the night before, but as long as you have these hateful demonstrations of burning our flag on a large scale and the likes of your politicians attending and supporting them then there is always going to be a negative perception of all the 12th celebrations this side of the border.

Its like the RC Church has now got a very bad reputation here due to the child abuse scandals and all the covering up that went with it.
I know that certain priests do great community work and others in the church do great charity work and dedicate there lives to it through the world.
But none of that is talked about and really matters due to the heinous crimes committed and covered up by other members of the church, and that is now the perception the RC Church has got here.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 11:17am

downcow wrote: »

I hadn't responded as i felt you were on the wind-up. Nobody has ever suggested doing away with English - mind you that would be entertaining.

Could you help me. Why is it important to you to have Irish signs up? - I genuinely would like to understand

If I said, AS YOU HAVE about Irish, 'that 'English only' on signage reminds me about who is in charge of the place and I therefore find that offensive' I would be laughed out of the forum and rightfully thrown out of any arbitration process.

Irish, is a 2000 year old language, rich in cultural touchpoints for all of us, from literature to poetry and to song. To survive it needs protection and promotion right throughout society.
As the Welsh Language Commissioner said when calling on the British government to live up to it's commitments to an ILA,

Meri Huws wrote:

Language laws are not "threatening" but strengthen communities. Nobody will be dis-empowered by this, everybody over time will become stronger and empowered.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 11:21am

RobMc59 wrote: »

It is complicated because a sizable number of British people in NI don't want Irish signage,if everyone agrees to it then it would be implemented as in Wales.

Again I ask you, do you understand the concept of 'equality' and how 'some' people, even 'sizeable' amounts of people have to concede to things they 'don't want' under that concept? You can also brief yourself on democracy and parity of esteem when looking up the world 'equal' :rolleyes:

I know for a fact abortion has been available in Britain a lot longer than Ireland so don't know where you're getting some of your information from.

What?

downcow · 17-07-2019 11:26am

Pedro K wrote: »

It's not important for me. I couldn't care less what language my signage is in. I'm trying to understand your objection to both languages being on signs.

Why are you against English and Irish being in equal prominence on signs?

Fair enough Pedro.
I will try to answer you.
My concerns and frustrations are

the IL has been used throughout the conflict by the IRA and other sectarian bigots to intimidate eg painting Tiocfaidh ar la (our day will come) on our churches, OO halls, schools, etc - I often arrived at school as a kid to find our windows broken and irish language painted on the walls - that is hard to shake off
Sinn Fein set up an IL class on the falls. The first speaker was Padraig O Maolchraoibhe, a Sinn Fein cultural officer and a teacher in Belfast. He told those present: "Every phrase you learn is a bullet in the freedom struggle." https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/sinn-fein-linguists-fired-bullet-into-language-of-our-politics-29994735.html
They also want an irish language act without giving us any idea what it means or the costs ie is it every road sign, will courtcases be allowed to be carried out in Irish with interpreters, will some jobs require it, etc, etc.
They want a commissioner who is accountable to no one - now who would that be and where would he take it.
We have minority groups here who cannot speak English. I was in a pub the other day and three separate groups were speaking in Chinese. If we are flush with cash should we not be doing practical steps to help them eg translate healt info, benifits, etc into these languages
and above all probaly the arrogance of IL speakers who know right well that it is a divisive issue but want to deal with it in isolation of other divisive issue eg flags
It will also clearly mark territory. Either the irish will only be up in nationalist areas or you will no what area you are in as to whether the signs are defaced or not - as is the case inmy Council area at the minute as the SF controlled council insists on put their signs in Irish ain areas the community don't want them.

hows tha for starters

downcow · 17-07-2019 11:29am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If I said, AS YOU HAVE about Irish, 'that 'English only' on signage reminds me about who is in charge of the place and I therefore find that offensive' I would be laughed out of the forum and rightfully thrown out of any arbitration process.
,

Thats fair Francie. I will acknowledge that is an interesting point that I hadn't really considered.
But pushing it in our faces is simply making us despise the language. A better way to respect eachothers culture needs to be found

The glorious 12th

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