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The glorious 12th
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FrancieBrady wrote: »Aren't equality and parity of esteem the place to start.
Instead of the Orange Order led 'to be equal, you must first persuade us' nonsense we are listening to here.
Francie,I'm married to an Irish Catholic and have no problem with anyone's religious persuasion.0 -
Francie,I'm married to an Irish Catholic and have no problem with anyone's religious persuasion.
What has it got to do with religion?
Here is the Orange resolution echoed by downcow on his soapOrangebox:‘The Orange Institution remembers the Armistice centenary of November 1918 which signalled the end of the Great War. An estimated 200,000 Orangemen served in that terrible conflict. This Orange family paid a high price and we remember with gratitude the service and sacrifice made by so many of our brethren and sisters. We remember too, the price paid by our 336 members who died at the hands of terrorists during the Troubles. We again commit ourselves to perpetuating their memory and to ensuring that the perpetrators of these crimes against humanity will not be permitted to rewrite the history of that period. As uncertainty continues regarding the process of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union, we reaffirm our commitment to, and support of, maintenance of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We will resolutely oppose any development which politically, economically or culturally undermines the current constitutional position. We reaffirm opposition to the introduction of any legislation for the Irish language. Such a move would have detrimental consequences for our British identity and would be acknowledged as a landmark victory for Irish republicanism in the cultural war against our community.’
What business has an Order purportedly founded on the principles of 'civil and religious liberties' got 'resolving' to do the above?0 -
I don't believe anyone who supports an Irish Language Act is insisting on an Irish language act only, or wishes to see language rights denyed to the speakers of Ulster-Scots. I, and I believe the vast majority of people who wish to see an Irish language act would have no problem with an Ulster-Scots Act that reflects the needs of that community, the question is weather or not that community themselves want an act, one should not be forced upon them becasue legislation is provided for Irish. The problem with having a Minority Languages Act is that it is a one size fits all aproch that will serve the needs of neither language.
A minority languages act is not the way to go and neither community actually wants one as far as I can see.
I think you misunderstood my post as I am not proposing a one size fits all. Rather, I am suggesting an approach that recognises equality of tradition.
A Minority Languages Act may have an overarching approach but it may have differential provisions for different languages. For example, it might provide for road-signs in three languages, but only provide for schools through Irish.
I am not surprised that neither community actually wants a Minority Languages Act, each side is much more interested in securing a victory over the other.0 -
A couple of great posts there blanch but I don’t agree with this one.
People can deny it and condemn me for drawing comparisons but identity here is not symmetrical.
Language seems really important in nationalist thinking as does probable Irish dancing, fleadhs, gaa etc.
Unionist have little interest in many of these but are interested in music/bands, marching, orange culture, ww1 & ww2 history/commemoration and diversity eg broad range of sporting interests etc.
So to suggest a stand alone IL act is useful completely misses the point that language is of no interest to most unionist.
I can certainly support a well thought through and fair culture/identity act which amongst other ensure parity of funding of eg IL and marching bands.
I wasn't suggesting a stand-alone Irish Languages Act, I was suggesting a Minority Languages Act, that would deal generally with minority languages, and set out specific measures in respect of each language. That wouldn't have to be limited to Irish and Ulster-Scots, provision could be made for certain information leaflets to be in Polish for example.
On the issue of a culture/identity Act, that might be a good idea, to recognise certain cultural traditions around marches, flags, St. Patrick's Day, the 12th etc., and to appropriately legislate for those.0 -
I think you misunderstood my post as I am not proposing a one size fits all. Rather, I am suggesting an approach that recognises equality of tradition.
A Minority Languages Act may have an overarching approach but it may have differential provisions for different languages. For example, it might provide for road-signs in three languages, but only provide for schools through Irish.
I am not surprised that neither community actually wants a Minority Languages Act, each side is much more interested in securing a victory over the other.
The tradition of Ulster Scots is nowhere near equal to that of the Irish Language.
It's an insult to anybody's intelligence to suggest they are.0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »What has it got to do with religion?
Here is the Orange resolution echoed by downcow on his soapOrangebox:
What business has an Order purportedly founded on the principles of 'civil and religious liberties' got 'resolving' to do the above?
I really don't see your problem with that resolution. It is akin to the Catholic Church reaffirming and resolving to try and reverse the political acceptance of SSM and abortion. While I might not like the sentiment of the OO or the Catholic Church, they have every right to express a view and resolve to seek change.0 -
I really don't see your problem with that resolution. It is akin to the Catholic Church reaffirming and resolving to try and reverse the political acceptance of SSM and abortion. While I might not like the sentiment of the OO or the Catholic Church, they have every right to express a view and resolve to seek change.
Any organisation that pretends, and draws taxpayer support on the basis that they are primarily about 'civil and religious liberty' should be called out for the hypocrites they are when they say things like this:We will resolutely oppose any development which politically, economically or culturally undermines the current constitutional position. We reaffirm opposition to the introduction of any legislation for the Irish language. Such a move would have detrimental consequences for our British identity and would be acknowledged as a landmark victory for Irish republicanism in the cultural war against our community.’
'We wish to maintain our identity by denying others theirs'? Civil and religious liberty my ass!0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »The tradition of Ulster Scots is nowhere near equal to that of the Irish Language.
It's an insult to anybody's intelligence to suggest they are.
And where did I suggest that the tradition of Ulster Scots is equal to that of the Irish language? The revival of Ulster Scots is a much more recent phenonemon.
In fact, if you want to argue the legitimacy of minority languages, the languages that immigrants from Eastern Europe have brought with them arguably have a lot more legitimacy than either of the two revived languages. Irish died out in the North for whatever reason, and there were no native speakers left by the mid-1970s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland
"The last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century."
Yes, it was being revived elsewhere at the same time, but the dialect used is mostly based on Donegal Irish.FrancieBrady wrote: »Says a poster who has a legendary position on here of conceding nothing to nationalists or republicans.
Not worth responding to.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »Any organisation that pretends, and draws taxpayer support on the basis that they are primarily about 'civil and religious liberty' should be called out for the hypocrites they are when they say things like this:
'We wish to maintain our identity by denying others theirs'? Civil and religious liberty my ass!
Again, the Catholic Church gets money from the State, and wants to deny identity to the LGBTQ community. I don't like the OO, I don't like the Catholic Church, I don't agree with their positions on these issues, but unlike you, I won't deny them the right to have their views and express them.0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »The tradition of Ulster Scots is nowhere near equal to that of the Irish Language.
It's an insult to anybody's intelligence to suggest they are.
ah yeah but one hand washes the other.. all these things should be recognised equally. Can't be giving out on one hand about Unionists not recognizing the Irish language and then pretty much do the same with Ulster Scots..
I wouldn't see them as the same myself but as you said earlier - is that up to us?0 -
And where did I suggest that the tradition of Ulster Scots is equal to that of the Irish language? The revival of Ulster Scots is a much more recent phenonemon.
In fact, if you want to argue the legitimacy of minority languages, the languages that immigrants from Eastern Europe have brought with them arguably have a lot more legitimacy than either of the two revived languages. Irish died out in the North for whatever reason, and there were no native speakers left by the mid-1970s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland
"The last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century."
Yes, it was being revived elsewhere at the same time, but the dialect used is mostly based on Donegal Irish.
yeah 'for whatever reason'
:pac:0 -
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Again, the Catholic Church gets money from the State, and wants to deny identity to the LGBTQ community. I don't like the OO, I don't like the Catholic Church, I don't agree with their positions on these issues, but unlike you, I won't deny them the right to have their views and express them.
The OO is not a religion or a church.
Please stop echoing the nonsense 'look over there' comparisons of janfebmar and downcow etc
If you object to religions getting taxpayers money to promote politcal agendas, open a thread on it.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »The tradition of Ulster Scots is nowhere near equal to that of the Irish Language.
It's an insult to anybody's intelligence to suggest they are.
I disagree Francie. Ulster Scots is not just about a language. Ulster Scots is the tradition of a very large number of people who live in NI. The most downtroden of all in the past (the 'blackmouths'). There is a very rich tradition which we did not need acts or government funding to sustain. The language/accent/or whatever has added a real richness to life here and again has done that with no historic funding. The parading is just one important part of it, that alone has 3,000 parades per year. The Ulster Scots community also regularly (if not almost always) has the world champion bands in accordion, highland pipe and flute - impressive for such a tiny group of people and i could go on and on. So I know you'd prefer not to regard us as equal but equal we are, and we are flourishing. One newly revived aspect is Scottish dancing which is starting to flourish in our communities.0 -
Again, the Catholic Church gets money from the State, and wants to deny identity to the LGBTQ community.
Does it? I'm aware it has tax exempt status, but I wasn't aware of any special grants it got - outside of the usual community grants for things tied to it, but I'm also aware of such things being given to other faiths (protestant Girl Guides springs to mind).
Not that I'm saying you're lying or anything, I'm genuinely curious.
I do tend to be of the view that if the expressed views of any organisation involve putting down citizens (be it Catholics for the OO, or LGBT individuals for the CC) that it should not be given any kind of state funding. Governments should not be seen to be funding any kind of bigoted position that demands its citizens should belong to some kind of second level status.
That said, I don't actually see anything wrong with membership rules - again, as above, the protestant Girl Guides in Ireland. It's unreasonable to demand of, for example, a mosque or church or religious organisation to provide services to those not of their faith. It should be, however, required to keep to themselves. The CC not allowing for gay weddings (as a ceremony) in their churches is one thing, them campaigning to forbid gay marriage (as a legal institution) is another. I figure the same standards should apply to the Orange Order.
Although not being a church, I'd imagine they don't qualify for tax exempt status. So it's solely grants and direct funding that comes into question.0 -
You can put it down to oppression, you can put it down to disinterest, you can put it down to lack of opportunity, we can have that debate another time. The point is, native Irish speaking died out in the North.
they can't be listed like that... simply can't
It diminishes the role the organs of the Orange state supported by the British State played in the suppression of all things Irish.
You can't list them in some trivial manner as if they are equivalents.. We wouldn't be here having this discussion without decades/centuries of subjugation in the North. An effort that continues to this day where any cultural concession is seen as an assault on Britishness and to be resisted at all costs.0 -
Does it? I'm aware it has tax exempt status, but I wasn't aware of any special grants it got - outside of the usual community grants for things tied to it, but I'm also aware of such things being given to other faiths (protestant Girl Guides springs to mind).
Not that I'm saying you're lying or anything, I'm genuinely curious.
I do tend to be of the view that if the expressed views of any organisation involve putting down citizens (be it Catholics for the OO, or LGBT individuals for the CC) that it should not be given any kind of state funding. Governments should not be seen to be funding any kind of bigoted position that demands its citizens should belong to some kind of second level status.
That said, I don't actually see anything wrong with membership rules - again, as above, the protestant Girl Guides in Ireland. It's unreasonable to demand of, for example, a mosque or church or religious organisation to provide services to those not of their faith. It should be, however, required to keep to themselves. The CC not allowing for gay weddings (as a ceremony) in their churches is one thing, them campaigning to forbid gay marriage (as a legal institution) is another. I figure the same standards should apply to the Orange Order.
Although not being a church, I'd imagine they don't qualify for tax exempt status. So it's solely grants and direct funding that comes into question.
I wasn't aware of the Protestant GG i was aware of the Catholic GG. could you give me a link to this organisation?0 -
I reckon the Airdrie Albion Accordion band would give any of them a run for their money!:)FrancieBrady wrote: »The tradition of Ulster Scots is nowhere near equal to that of the Irish Language.
It's an insult to anybody's intelligence to suggest they are.
I disagree Francie. Ulster Scots is not just about a language. Ulster Scots is the tradition of a very large number of people who live in NI. The most downtroden of all in the past (the 'blackmouths'). There is a very rich tradition which we did not need acts or government funding to sustain. The language/accent/or whatever has added a real richness to life here and again has done that with no historic funding. The parading is just one important part of it, that alone has 3,000 parades per year. The Ulster Scots community also regularly (if not almost always) has the world champion bands in accordion, highland pipe and flute - impressive for such a tiny group of people and i could go on and on. So I know you'd prefer not to regard us as equal but equal we are, and we are flourishing. One newly revived aspect is Scottish dancing which is starting to flourish in our communities.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »The OO is not a religion or a church.
Please stop echoing the nonsense 'look over there' comparisons of janfebmar and downcow etc
If you object to religions getting taxpayers money to promote politcal agendas, open a thread on it.
Ok, forget about the Catholic Church, how about the GAA?
"The Gaelic Athletic Association today is an organisation which
reaches into every corner of the land and has its roots in every
Irish parish. Throughout the Country, legions of voluntary
workers willingly make sacrifices to promote its ideals and carry
its daily burdens. Why does the Association receive this unselfish
support?
Those who play its games, those who organise its activities
and those who control its destinies see in the G.A.A. a means
of consolidating our Irish identity. The games to them are
more than games - they have a national significance - and the
promotion of native pastimes becomes a part of the full national
ideal, which envisages the speaking of our own language,
music and dances. The primary purpose of the G.A.A. is the
organisation of native pastimes and the promotion of athletic
fitness as a means to create a disciplined, self- reliant, national minded manhood. The overall result is the expression of a
people’s preference for native ways as opposed to imported ones.
Since she has not control over all the national territory,
Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired. It would be still
more impaired if she were to lose her language, if she failed to
provide a decent livelihood for her people at home, or if she
were to forsake her own games and customs in favour of the
games and customs of another nation. If pride in the attributes
of nationhood dies, something good and distinctive in our
race dies with it. Each national quality that is lost makes us so
much poorer as a Nation. Today, the native games take on a
new significance when it is realised that they have been a part,
and still are a part, of the Nation’s desire to live her own life, to
govern her own affairs."
Again, I have no problem at all with the political aspirations expressed here by the GAA, and no problem with their funding, they are entitled to their views, but if you are going to withdraw funding from the Orange Order because they have something to say about identity, you would have to do the same for the GAA on principle.0 -
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Ok, forget about the Catholic Church, how about the GAA?
"The Gaelic Athletic Association today is an organisation which
reaches into every corner of the land and has its roots in every
Irish parish. Throughout the Country, legions of voluntary
workers willingly make sacrifices to promote its ideals and carry
its daily burdens. Why does the Association receive this unselfish
support?
Those who play its games, those who organise its activities
and those who control its destinies see in the G.A.A. a means
of consolidating our Irish identity. The games to them are
more than games - they have a national significance - and the
promotion of native pastimes becomes a part of the full national
ideal, which envisages the speaking of our own language,
music and dances. The primary purpose of the G.A.A. is the
organisation of native pastimes and the promotion of athletic
fitness as a means to create a disciplined, self- reliant, national minded manhood. The overall result is the expression of a
people’s preference for native ways as opposed to imported ones.
Since she has not control over all the national territory,
Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired. It would be still
more impaired if she were to lose her language, if she failed to
provide a decent livelihood for her people at home, or if she
were to forsake her own games and customs in favour of the
games and customs of another nation. If pride in the attributes
of nationhood dies, something good and distinctive in our
race dies with it. Each national quality that is lost makes us so
much poorer as a Nation. Today, the native games take on a
new significance when it is realised that they have been a part,
and still are a part, of the Nation’s desire to live her own life, to
govern her own affairs."
Again, I have no problem at all with the political aspirations expressed here by the GAA, and no problem with their funding, they are entitled to their views, but if you are going to withdraw funding from the Orange Order because they have something to say about identity, you would have to do the same for the GAA on principle.
Where in that text is the equivalent of:We will resolutely oppose any development which politically, economically or culturally undermines the current constitutional position. We reaffirm opposition to the introduction of any legislation for the Irish language. Such a move would have detrimental consequences for our British identity and would be acknowledged as a landmark victory for Irish republicanism in the cultural war against our community.’
Which is 'preserve our culture AT THE EXPENSE of another'.
By all means form societies and organisations to perserve your own culture, but not at the expense of somebody else's in a shared EQUAL society.
Keep digging those holes blanch.0 -
I wasn't aware of the Protestant GG i was aware of the Catholic GG. could you give me a link to this organisation?
If you live in NI, I would not be surprised. The Irish Girl Guides are not an all-island organisation and only operate in the Republic.
Also I may have been incorrect on calling them a 'Protestant' organisation, a quick scan of their website doesn't actually mention any kind of religious affiliation. My knowledge of them came through a Church of Ireland community. Coupled with their being a distinct organisation from the CGI, I made an assumption which may not be accurate.
My bad.0 -
I disagree Francie. Ulster Scots is not just about a language. Ulster Scots is the tradition of a very large number of people who live in NI. The most downtroden of all in the past (the 'blackmouths'). There is a very rich tradition which we did not need acts or government funding to sustain. The language/accent/or whatever has added a real richness to life here and again has done that with no historic funding. The parading is just one important part of it, that alone has 3,000 parades per year. The Ulster Scots community also regularly (if not almost always) has the world champion bands in accordion, highland pipe and flute - impressive for such a tiny group of people and i could go on and on. So I know you'd prefer not to regard us as equal but equal we are, and we are flourishing. One newly revived aspect is Scottish dancing which is starting to flourish in our communities.
Ulster Scots is a dialect, one that I could be speaking tomorrow and have a lot of by dint of where I live...in Ulster. It is a fascinating and rich dialect which it would be tragic to lose. It SHOULD BE protected and supported but attempts to call it a language on a par with Irish are ridiculous and do nobody any favours. Two pieces here underline that: One by a journalist and this one that took place on radio.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=693489797522641Jason Walsh wrote:Some years ago I was employed in a production capacity by an Irish unionist newspaper and it was here that I first came head-to-head with the bizarre twilight world of Ulster Scots. As I came from the republican stronghold of west Belfast I knew little of this ‘language’ but a good friend of mine in the newsroom was responsible for laying-out ‘the Ulster Scot’, a free supplement all about this make-believe lingo.
At the time I thought it was nothing short of hilarious: clearly unionists were chafing at the sight of the Irish language undergoing a genuine (though frequently overstated) renaissance that was dragging it out of its comfortable romantic obscurity and into the modern world. What was the best thing to do about this, pondered unionist politicians, until one had the astonishingly grandiose idea of actually inventing their own language. Of course, synthetic languages like Loglan and Esperanto are difficult to learn and it’s even harder to persuade people to actually learn the damn things, so in order to facilitate rapid growth the new language of Ulster Scots would be simply the dialect of English spoken in North Antrim with a kind of dyslexic phonetic spelling system and a few inscrutable phrases pilfered from Lowland Scots dialect of English. If Ulster Scots is a language then so are the dialects used in Irvine Welsh’s ‘Trainspotting’ or James Kelman’s ‘How Late it Was, How Late.’ When BBC Radio Ulster announced, sadly incorrectly, that the Ulster Scots term for mentally disabled children was “wee daftie weans” I almost fell over, so hard was I laughing at the antics of these clowns.
I later enjoyed, if that is the correct word, a further dunking in the stagnant waters of the unionist identity project when BBC Northern Ireland screened the execrable ‘On Eagle’s Wing’, an all-singing, all-dancing, and above all, almightily camp musical that appears to be a kind of ‘Ulster kulsher’ response to the dreadful Riverdance. Revelling in unionist victimology, ‘On Eagle’s Wing’ tells the story of the stout Ulstemen and their redoubtable womenfolk as they made their way to the New World in order to escape persecution from the British Establishment in Ireland. Tellingly, the so-called ‘Scots-Irish-Americans’ are virtually unknown today, not because they were unsuccessful, but precisely because they thrived, threw off the chains of their former identities and merged completely into American society – precisely the opposite of what their born-again boosters are now promoting.0 -
I just see it exactly the same as a union flag on a lamppost. Offensive to some but doesn’t bother many and some love them.
There could be room for both but we need to work on mutual understanding and respect first.
But you already have the Union flag flying on particular days, as per the rest of the U.K., and you have the English language on signs. How could Irish language on signs alongside English be offensive? Could that not be considered trying to eat your cake and have it too?0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »Where in that text is the equivalent of:
Which is 'preserve our culture AT THE EXPENSE of another'.
By all means form societies and organisations to perserve your own culture, but not at the expense of somebody else's in a shared EQUAL society.
Keep digging those holes blanch.
That GAA statement goes further than preserving your own culture, as you well know - "The overall result is the expression of a people’s preference for native ways as opposed to imported ones." and " if she were to forsake her own games and customs in favour of the games and customs of another nation."
It is expressed in much more judicial language but the sentiment and the principle of our culture at the expense of others is still the same.FrancieBrady wrote: »Ulster Scots is a dialect, one that I could be speaking tomorrow and have a lot of by dint of where I live...in Ulster. It is a fascinating and rich dialect which it would be tragic to lose. It SHOULD BE protected and supported but attempts to call it a language on a par with Irish are ridiculous and do nobody any favours. Two pieces here underline that: One by a journalist and this one that took place on radio.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=693489797522641
Who has said that Ulster-Scots should be on a par with Irish? All that I have said is that an overarching Minority Languages Act would be a symbol of mutual respect for traditions but that there should be different practical arrangements for different languages within the overarching Act.
The veil of equality you draw over your proposals is embarrassingly thin.0 -
But you already have the Union flag flying on particular days, as per the rest of the U.K., and you have the English language on signs. How could Irish language on signs alongside English be offensive? Could that not be considered trying to eat your cake and have it too?
There is a peculiar schizophrenic logic in downcow's answers, on the one hand, he washes his hands on behalf of Unionists and the OO for the taunting that goes on with flags on lamposts, bonfires and contentious parades, yet on the other hand in return for language rights he wants this behaviour to be accepted as part of their culture. :rolleyes:0 -
That GAA statement goes further than preserving your own culture, as you well know - "The overall result is the expression of a people’s preference for native ways as opposed to imported ones." and " if she were to forsake her own games and customs in favour of the games and customs of another nation."
It is expressed in much more judicial language but the sentiment and the principle of our culture at the expense of others is still the same.
I am not that interested in getting into a tit for tat, look over there argument. If you feel that the GAA or the Catholic church are out of order that does not excuse anybody else for being out of order.Who has said that Ulster-Scots should be on a par with Irish? All that I have said is that an overarching Minority Languages Act would be a symbol of mutual respect for traditions but that there should be different practical arrangements for different languages within the overarching Act.
The veil of equality you draw over your proposals is embarrassingly thin.
Nobody has an objection to the support and protection of Ulster Scots, least of all those proposing an Irish Language act. Once again, your desire to depict this as some sort of territorial battle that requires a trade off, in case republicans or nationalists might win something is writ large.
Like the Welsh and Scots the Irish require a standalone act and are supported in this by the British (who agreed to one) the EU and UN.
Ulster Scots is also supported as a dialect worthy of it's own protection.0 -
A wee bit of that disgusting ulster scots culture associated with the twelfth. Maybe some who have been blasting the twelfth can give some honest feed back - this is the real orange culture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPHpSJEZAjQ our current flute world champions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp4elB3Ksrc our current pipe world champions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLhnaB8W83k a wee sample of the fast growing scottish dancing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1yJQnKDj_0 the belfast tattoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf5DNpSkvrY Francie says it dying out. Here is the traditional welcome home for the MYD who have no lodge to parade with in their own town so go to Belfast twelfth and return to their we rural town at 10pm. Have a wee look at the crowd that return after a long twelfth day to meet them and have a look at the age profile - I think its here for a while yet Francie0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »I am not that interested in getting into a tit for tat, look over there argument.
That must be a first.FrancieBrady wrote: »
Nobody has an objection to the support and protection of Ulster Scots, least of all those proposing an Irish Language act. Once again, your desire to depict this as some sort of territorial battle that requires a trade off, in case republicans or nationalists might win something is writ large.
Like the Welsh and Scots the Irish require a standalone act and are supported in this by the British (who agreed to one) the EU and UN.
Ulster Scots is also supported as a dialect worthy of it's own protection.
Nope, didn't depict it as a territorial battle, just mutual respect for cultures and traditions, appropriately differentiated. Not interested in anyone winning anything, just in middle ground compromises.0
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