The glorious 12th

downcow

I would still like someone to outline to me the reasons they would like to see Irish signs up? I know someone doesn't believe me but i genuinely want to try to understand. I have no desire whatsoever to have ulster scots up so i cant see why it is important

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Fair enough Pedro.
I will try to answer you.
My concerns and frustrations are

• the IL has been used throughout the conflict by the IRA and other sectarian bigots to intimidate eg painting Tiocfaidh ar la (our day will come) on our churches, OO halls, schools, etc - I often arrived at school as a kid to find our windows broken and irish language painted on the walls - that is hard to shake off

The conflict is over. ALL SIDES have similar stories. This has nothing to do with the Irish Language and everything to do with your inability to move on.

[*]Sinn Fein set up an IL class on the falls. The first speaker was Padraig O Maolchraoibhe, a Sinn Fein cultural officer and a teacher in Belfast. He told those present: "Every phrase you learn is a bullet in the freedom struggle." https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/sinn-fein-linguists-fired-bullet-into-language-of-our-politics-29994735.html

Also, nothing to do with the anguage and everything to do with your never give an inch position.

[*]They also want an irish language act without giving us any idea what it means or the costs ie is it every road sign, will courtcases be allowed to be carried out in Irish with interpreters, will some jobs require it, etc, etc.
[*]They want a commissioner who is accountable to no one - now who would that be and where would he take it.

Nonsense and already debunked.

[*]We have minority groups here who cannot speak English. I was in a pub the other day and three separate groups were speaking in Chinese. If we are flush with cash should we not be doing practical steps to help them eg translate healt info, benifits, etc into these languages

No reason in a modern progressive society that the above can not be done as well.

[*]and above all probaly the arrogance of IL speakers who know right well that it is a divisive issue but want to deal with it in isolation of other divisive issue eg flags

Has the 'fleg' issue being 'normalised' resulted in you feeling LESS British?

[*]It will also clearly mark territory. Either the irish will only be up in nationalist areas or you will no what area you are in as to whether the signs are defaced or not - as is the case inmy Council area at the minute as the SF controlled council insists on put their signs in Irish ain areas the community don't want them.


hows tha for starters

You make a good case for standardising it across northern Ireland.

downcow

One other problem with our starting points is

I love NI and really want NI to work. Therefore it is in my interests to try and ensure all people feel as comfortable as possible here.

Many on here despise the 'state-let' of NI and they want it to fail asap. Therefore you can hardly blame me for being suspicious when those people demand an Irish language act.

I also fully recognise the dangers of this for us all and for driving us apart - but i have no idea how we crack it

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The conflict is over. ALL SIDES have similar stories. This has nothing to do with the Irish Language and everything to do with your inability to move on.

Also, nothing to do with the anguage and everything to do with your never give an inch position.

Nonsense and already debunked.

No reason in a modern progressive society that the above can not be done as well.

Has the 'fleg' issue being 'normalised' resulted in you feeling LESS British?

You make a good case for standardising it across northern Ireland.

Will there we are now francie has it sorted - and he just might be one of those people who want NI to fail asap

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

One other problem with our starting points is

I love NI and really want NI to work. Therefore it is in my interests to try and ensure all people feel as comfortable as possible here.

Many on here despise the 'state-let' of NI and they want it to fail asap. Therefore you can hardly blame me for being suspicious when those people demand an Irish language act.

I also fully recognise the dangers of this for us all and for driving us apart - but i have no idea how we crack it

The statelet at NO time in it's 100 year history has 'worked' for everyone. It has in fact abjectly failed, in economic and social terms and requires an International Agreement between 2 governments to function at all.

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

One other problem with our starting points is

I love NI and really want NI to work. Therefore it is in my interests to try and ensure all people feel as comfortable as possible here.

Many on here despise the 'state-let' of NI and they want it to fail asap. Therefore you can hardly blame me for being suspicious when those people demand an Irish language act.

I also fully recognise the dangers of this for us all and for driving us apart - but i have no idea how we crack it

All your postings betray is that the NI that you want to 'work' is an Orange NI ..

But you'll need to move on.

citytillidie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The conflict is over. ALL SIDES have similar stories. This has nothing to do with the Irish Language and everything to do with your inability to move on.

Also, nothing to do with the anguage and everything to do with your never give an inch position.

Nonsense and already debunked.

No reason in a modern progressive society that the above can not be done as well.

Has the 'fleg' issue being 'normalised' resulted in you feeling LESS British?

You make a good case for standardising it across northern Ireland.

User also seems to be ignoring that the Irish language is being taught in East Belfast with no issue

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If I said, AS YOU HAVE about Irish, 'that 'English only' on signage reminds me about who is in charge of the place and I therefore find that offensive' I would be laughed out of the forum and rightfully thrown out of any arbitration process.

I really appreciate this point Francie. I absolutely don't want people in NI feeling 'someone else is running the place'.
I think it is incumbent on unionists to engage with this issue and find is there a way to celebrate the IL for those who want to celebrate it but not rub it in the face of others - Nationalists need to honestly consider how they can take the heat out of it and reassure unionists. But this compromise would be a long long way short of the current demands

janfebmar

lawred2 wrote: »

What's your obsession with looking for Irish usage on Ryanair and boards?

.

As someone who has travelled over all 32 counties for many decades, I cannot help but notice that virtually nobody uses Irish, and certainly nobody uses Irish if they have to pay for it.

FrancieBrady

lawred2 wrote: »

All your postings betray is that the NI that you want to 'work' is an Orange NI ..

But you'll need to move on.

One thing about the British we can conclusively say is that when they are sick of you, they are sick of you.

Unionists have had their asses handed to them ever since the British ended their veto with the Anglo Irish Agreement.

Every single, not an inch pole they run the flag up has ended with them slinking away with tails between legs. the AIA, The GFA, Flags, Parades, SSM, Abortion Rights, and now imminently on Brexit and special staus etc etc etc

They still haven't learned.

downcow

citytillidie wrote: »

User also seems to be ignoring that the Irish language is being taught in East Belfast with no issue

I am not ignoring it. It just isn't really relevant. I completely support people learning Irish or whatever they want and as much as possible funded by the state

blanch152

I don't understand how the solution of a Minority Languages Act that contains provisions (that may be different to each other) to recognise and respect both Irish and Ulster Scots cannot be put in place.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

One thing about the British we can conclusively say is that when they are sick of you, they are sick of you.

Unionists have had their asses handed to them ever since the British ended their veto with the Anglo Irish Agreement.

Every single, not an inch pole they run the flag up has ended with them slinking away with tails between legs. the AIA, The GFA, Flags, Parades, SSM, Abortion Rights, and now imminently on Brexit and special staus etc etc etc

They still haven't learned.

Meanwhile back in the 26 counties everyone was working hard to bring their Northern brothers back into the fold LOL

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

I really appreciate this point Francie. I absolutely don't want people in NI feeling 'someone else is running the place'.
I think it is incumbent on unionists to engage with this issue and find is there a way to celebrate the IL for those who want to celebrate it but not rub it in the face of others - Nationalists need to honestly consider how they can take the heat out of it and reassure unionists. But this compromise would be a long long way short of the current demands

Yes it is incumbent upon you to realise that bi-lingual signage is not actually rubbing anyone's face in anything.

It's easy to talk nice about it being incumbent on unionists to engage - however when you yourself introduce aggressive terminology such as 'rubbing it in the face' it's defacto evidence of your inability or desire to 'engage'..

If you were entertained this thread would run for years going around in circles with you uttering platitudes and niceties about what's incumbent on unionists...

downcow

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't understand how the solution of a Minority Languages Act that contains provisions (that may be different to each other) to recognise and respect both Irish and Ulster Scots cannot be put in place.

I agree blanch - I i don't think theres much demand or interest in Ulster Scots provision.

Just realistic demands and we'd be sorted

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Meanwhile back in the 26 counties everyone was working hard to bring their Northern brothers back into the fold LOL

What?

lawred2

janfebmar wrote: »

As someone who has travelled over all 32 counties for many decades, I cannot help but notice that virtually nobody uses Irish, and certainly nobody uses Irish if they have to pay for it.

right - person doesn't see what they don't want to see - that's unusual

janfebmar

downcow wrote: »

Will there we are now francie has it sorted - and he just might be one of those people who want NI to fail asap

Lol " he might just be".

If one of my employees ever suggested having all signage, documentation etc bi-lingual I would have known that employee wanted the company to fail asap.

downcow

lawred2 wrote: »

Yes it is incumbent upon you to realise that bi-lingual signage is not actually rubbing anyone's face in anything.

It's easy to talk nice about it being incumbent on unionists to engage - however when you yourself introduce aggressive terminology such as 'rubbing it in the face' is defacto evidence of your inability or desire to 'engage'..

If you were entertained this thread would run for years going around in circles with you uttering platitudes and niceties about what's incumbent on unionists...

Lawred. I have been attempting to engage here, answer questions, find solutions, etc. You refuse to tell us even why you personally request signs in irish and you snipe with short digs instead of engaging

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The statelet at NO time in it's 100 year history has 'worked' for everyone. It has in fact abjectly failed, in economic and social terms and requires an International Agreement between 2 governments to function at all.

Isn't he entitled to his opinion?especially as its actually his country that's being discussed?
If he wants NI to work that's fine and is the view of many people in other parts of the UK.I'd like to see NI remain part of the UK but I like the fact Ireland has prospered in the last 20-30 years-it is possible for both to exist side by side.

FrancieBrady

lawred2 wrote: »

right - person doesn't see what they don't want to see - that's unusual

The Irish taxpayer happily funds the language as far as I can tell. Has anyone run on a platform of cutting the funding and succeeded?

As an aside, the Irish taxpayer also happily funds the Irish Language in the north, through Foras Na Gaelige.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

I think it’s a really important point janfebmar is making. If there was a genuine need or demand out there for Irish then Ryanair and the likes would be straight on to it.
This is important in ascertaining if it is something there is a demand for.

You can pick whatever private companies you like, I could mention a few to make the counter point. Tescos have bilingual signage in many of their stores.

Boards only has a small Irish section, but Twitter and Facebook both provide an Irish version of their site. I guess there is need of Irish after all.

The bigger point though is that we are only talking about private companies because some posters are trying to score a point. The actuall issue is about the language rights of our citizens. It is not an issue of need, the state has no great 'need' to respect your rights, or mine, but it has an obligation to do so.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Isn't he entitled to his opinion?especially as its actually his country that's being discussed?
If he wants NI to work that's fine and is the view of many people in other parts of the UK.I'd like to see NI remain part of the UK but I like the fact Ireland has prospered in the last 20-30 years-it is possible for both to exist side by side.

We can all want something to work, but the FACT is Rob that northern Ireland has never 'worked' for all it's people in the 100 years of it's existence. You can poll a 'sizeable amount' of people on that to confirm.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Lawred. I have been attempting to engage here, answer questions, find solutions, etc. You refuse to tell us even why you personally request signs in irish and you snipe with short digs instead of engaging

No you have not reaonably engaged, you are here to promote the OO, never give an inch, official position on the Irish Language and what they believe it stands for.

Pedro K

downcow wrote: »

I really appreciate this point Francie. I absolutely don't want people in NI feeling 'someone else is running the place'.
I think it is incumbent on unionists to engage with this issue and find is there a way to celebrate the IL for those who want to celebrate it but not rub it in the face of others - Nationalists need to honestly consider how they can take the heat out of it and reassure unionists. But this compromise would be a long long way short of the current demands

And you think that having both English and Irish on road signs would be the nationalists 'rubbing it in the face of others?'

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We can all want something to work, but the FACT is Rob that northern Ireland has never 'worked' for all it's people in the 100 years of it's existence. You can poll a 'sizeable amount' of people on that to confirm.

You are entitled to your opinion but it's a British matter-the FACT is not everyone agrees with your "hurler on the ditch"comments regarding NI.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion but it's a British matter-the FACT is not everyone agrees with your "hurler on the ditch"comments regarding NI.

Ask a 'sizeable amount' in northern Ireland so. The answer and the fact will be the same.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion but it's a British matter-the FACT is not everyone agrees with your "hurler on the ditch"comments regarding NI.

And it isn't just a 'British' matter. Again the 'fact' is that there are commitments under the GFA and it's various supplementary agreements not to mention EU and UN expectations on language rights to be fulfilled.
The Orange Order/DUP position will not hold. You know that and so do I.

SusieBlue

janfebmar wrote: »

As someone who has travelled over all 32 counties for many decades, I cannot help but notice that virtually nobody uses Irish, and certainly nobody uses Irish if they have to pay for it.

That's not my experience at all. I live in Cork city, I am fluent as are my entire family.
In a 15 minute drive radius, there are about 9 Gaelscoil primary schools and 4 secondaries. In rural locations in the county, I know of at least 5/6 other schools.
Each of those schools has a couple of hundred students. Those students have parents who help them with their homework, who even if they can't speak Irish, they at least have the cúpla focail to help their kids.
I can comfortably state that by the age of 8/9, the children attending these schools are fluent in Irish. We can safely assume that the parents of these children have an interest in the language, even if they can't speak it themselves.

Each of these schools also has language classes for the community to get involved in. They have school plays, and fun days, and bake sales, through the medium of Irish, again involving the local community.

These schools are located in both working class/disadvantaged and middle class areas, so it isn't just certain sections of society involved either.

UCC, Cork Institute of Technology, & Cork College of Commerce (PLC college) all have active Irish language societies. Again, they organise events for both students and locals, promoting the language.

And that's without even touching on the independent groups and the people who choose to speak it at home of their own accord (I know people who do both).

The Irish language is alive and well in my community, and I don't even live in a rural/Gaeltacht area.
Its there if you know where to look. But there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

downcow

Pedro K wrote: »

And you think that having both English and Irish on road signs would be the nationalists 'rubbing it in the face of others?'

I just see it exactly the same as a union flag on a lamppost. Offensive to some but doesn’t bother many and some love them.
There could be room for both but we need to work on mutual understanding and respect first.