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The glorious 12th
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Fair enough Pedro.
I will try to answer you.
My concerns and frustrations are- the IL has been used throughout the conflict by the IRA and other sectarian bigots to intimidate eg painting Tiocfaidh ar la (our day will come) on our churches, OO halls, schools, etc - I often arrived at school as a kid to find our windows broken and irish language painted on the walls - that is hard to shake off
- Sinn Fein set up an IL class on the falls. The first speaker was Padraig O Maolchraoibhe, a Sinn Fein cultural officer and a teacher in Belfast. He told those present: "Every phrase you learn is a bullet in the freedom struggle." https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/sinn-fein-linguists-fired-bullet-into-language-of-our-politics-29994735.html
- They also want an irish language act without giving us any idea what it means or the costs ie is it every road sign, will courtcases be allowed to be carried out in Irish with interpreters, will some jobs require it, etc, etc.
- They want a commissioner who is accountable to no one - now who would that be and where would he take it.
- We have minority groups here who cannot speak English. I was in a pub the other day and three separate groups were speaking in Chinese. If we are flush with cash should we not be doing practical steps to help them eg translate healt info, benifits, etc into these languages
- and above all probaly the arrogance of IL speakers who know right well that it is a divisive issue but want to deal with it in isolation of other divisive issue eg flags
- It will also clearly mark territory. Either the irish will only be up in nationalist areas or you will no what area you are in as to whether the signs are defaced or not - as is the case inmy Council area at the minute as the SF controlled council insists on put their signs in Irish ain areas the community don't want them.
hows tha for starters
A load of bollocks if you ask me.
Every step of the way the Orange state has tried to make life impossible for Irish seakers. Just take education, in the early days after partition Unionists decided to close down all Irish language schools in NI. Irish speakers were abused and discriminated against throughout the conflict and long before. You can talk about a SF member who said something during a speach, but what about the Unionists Ministers who decided to take away funding from Irish language schools and make it impossible for parents to educate their children through Irish? Years later, when the first Gaelscoil was opened in Belfast the only reason it was able to stay open in the early years was that the RUC could not go into the area to shut it down. It took years for the school to get official recognitation and funding. That kind of thing does not happen in a normal society. Unionism made an enemy of the Irish language early and made consistant efforts to undermine it. What do you think fules the protest movement so much? It's not just a bunch of SF members play acting, it is young prople who value the language as part of their lives who have had first hand experience of the discrimination that is regularly meeted out to Irish speakers by the northern state.
It is a devicive issue because Unionism has made it so, it is not arrogent of Irish speakers to push back against this constant abuse.
As for what an Irish Language act means or what it costs, if you don't know that then you are not listening, or worse you are listening to the lies of Unionist Polititions. What an ILA entails has clearly been spelled out by groups like Conradh na Gaeilge. Perhaps you should do some reading rather than merely parroting the talking points of the DUP.0 -
Are you trying to say these are the same?I am stunned by the stuff some people believe here.
Here’s one wee example in the last couple of days. And unlike your case it was with drink taken late at night. This one is just pure sectarian hate in the middle of the day.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-489681090 -
RobMc59 wrote:You are entitled to your opinion but it's a British matter-the FACT is not everyone agrees with your "hurler on the ditch"comments regarding NI.
I'm not going to get into the whole Irish language debate here, but your posting itself is very provocative.
Many people who live in NI do not consider it to be a British matter.
NI and the ROI are linked in many areas such as culture and shared history and although it has been a troubled past people here on this forum whether they are from the south or the North are entitled to an opinion on it.
So stop trying to shut people down saying that it is just a British matter!0 -
One other problem with our starting points is
I love NI and really want NI to work. Therefore it is in my interests to try and ensure all people feel as comfortable as possible here.
Many on here despise the 'state-let' of NI and they want it to fail asap. Therefore you can hardly blame me for being suspicious when those people demand an Irish language act.
I also fully recognise the dangers of this for us all and for driving us apart - but i have no idea how we crack it
How exactly does an Irish language act threaten NI? I have heard Unionists claim that the Irish language is a threat to their Britishness, but cannot for the life of me understand how.
Do you think the Irish language is a threat to "Britishness" or to the union?0 -
I don't understand how the solution of a Minority Languages Act that contains provisions (that may be different to each other) to recognise and respect both Irish and Ulster Scots cannot be put in place.
Irish and Ulster Scots are two very different languages, with very different communities who which have very different needs. No-one ever seems to ask Ulster-Scots speakers if they want to be lumped into an act that does not reflect their needs. There seems to be an assumption that they only exist to temper the demands of Irish speakers.0 -
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firemansam4 wrote: »I'm not going to get into the whole Irish language debate here, but your posting itself is very provocative.
Many people who live in NI do not consider it to be a British matter.
NI and the ROI are linked in many areas such as culture and shared history and although it has been a troubled past people here on this forum whether they are from the south or the North are entitled to an opinion on it.
So stop trying to shut people down saying that it is just a British matter!
Rob seems to be living in a pre-GFA world. Obviously Ireland, as a signatory to the peace agreements in NI, has a deep involvement in issues like this. The Irish language is one of the issues that comes directly under the remit of the agreements, one of the cross border bodies set up under the agreements is Foras na Gaeilge.0 -
How exactly does an Irish language act threaten NI? I have heard Unionists claim that the Irish language is a threat to their Britishness, but cannot for the life of me understand how.
Do you think the Irish language is a threat to "Britishness" or to the union?
downcow is here to spread the official Orange line I believe. His view is entirely consistent to this bizarre resolution.We reaffirm opposition to the introduction of any legislation for the Irish language. Such a move would have detrimental consequences for our British identity and would be acknowledged as a landmark victory for Irish republicanism in the cultural war against our community.’
Note, that they are in opposition to ANY legislation.
http://www.bandparades.co.uk/archives/624210 -
Many unionists view their Britishness as having “cultural supremacy” over the fenians, so when you argue for things like designated days (like they have in Britain) and in this case language rights (like they have in Britain) it is somehow chipping away at their Britishness. They speak of a cultural war, the reality is the OO is (thankfully) shrinking in numbers, demographics are changing and the result is an increasing amount of perennially under siege insecure loyalists/unionists desperately trying to cling onto what they once had; while at the same time denying anything that can be remotely perceived as a concession to thenmuns (usually with some tedious link to the IRA)How exactly does an Irish language act threaten NI? I have heard Unionists claim that the Irish language is a threat to their Britishness, but cannot for the life of me understand how.
Do you think the Irish language is a threat to "Britishness" or to the union?0 -
A load of bollocks if you ask me.
Every step of the way the Orange state has tried to make life impossible for Irish seakers. Just take education, in the early days after partition Unionists decided to close down all Irish language schools in NI. Irish speakers were abused and discriminated against throughout the conflict and long before. You can talk about a SF member who said something during a speach, but what about the Unionists Ministers who decided to take away funding from Irish language schools and make it impossible for parents to educate their children through Irish? Years later, when the first Gaelscoil was opened in Belfast the only reason it was able to stay open in the early years was that the RUC could not go into the area to shut it down. It took years for the school to get official recognitation and funding. That kind of thing does not happen in a normal society. Unionism made an enemy of the Irish language early and made consistant efforts to undermine it. What do you think fules the protest movement so much? It's not just a bunch of SF members play acting, it is young prople who value the language as part of their lives who have had first hand experience of the discrimination that is regularly meeted out to Irish speakers by the northern state.
It is a devicive issue because Unionism has made it so, it is not arrogent of Irish speakers to push back against this constant abuse.
As for what an Irish Language act means or what it costs, if you don't know that then you are not listening, or worse you are listening to the lies of Unionist Polititions. What an ILA entails has clearly been spelled out by groups like Conradh na Gaeilge. Perhaps you should do some reading rather than merely parroting the talking points of the DUP.
A big long rant with very little substance and you are one of the many on here who would rather use you time telling me I should know why you want Irish language signs up rather that just telling me why you want them.0 -
How exactly does an Irish language act threaten NI? I have heard Unionists claim that the Irish language is a threat to their Britishness, but cannot for the life of me understand how.
Do you think the Irish language is a threat to "Britishness" or to the union?
No not significantly0 -
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I just see it exactly the same as a union flag on a lamppost. Offensive to some but doesn’t bother many and some love them.
There could be room for both but we need to work on mutual understanding and respect first.
You don't show respect by preventing the use of the Irish language in the public sphere. Unionist controlled councils have gotten themselves in trouble by trying to ban the use of Irish on street signs. There is very little evidence of any desire to engage or build mutual understanding and respect on the part of Unionism.
Unionism's message to the rest of the community, it seems, has never really moved beyond 'you surrender first and then we can get along'. Irish language rights is part of a society based on mutual understanding and respect. You don't get to ignore the issue, have your own way and call it mutual understanding and respect.0 -
A big long rant with very little substance and you are one of the many on here who would rather use you time telling me I should know why you want Irish language signs up rather that just telling me why you want them.
In a supposedly equal society (and this is something belligerent Unionism STILL doesn't get) there is no onus to 'convince or persuade you'. That is arrogant Orangeism right there. And it you downcow, who will have his own nose 'rubbed in it' as it has been on every stand you guys have made in maintaining inequality.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »We can all want something to work, but the FACT is Rob that northern Ireland has never 'worked' for all it's people in the 100 years of it's existence. You can poll a 'sizeable amount' of people on that to confirm.
That is not a fact, that is your opinion, an opinion that belongs sometime in the late 1960s and is half a century out of date.
This is a really interesting academic piece that explores the Northern Irish identity:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1a7c/16bd314a13f746c61fbcc8005268771d6459.pdf
Some really good insights:
" Recent survey data supports this assertion, showing that Northern Irish is the most popular identity option among 18–24 year olds (ARK, 2015). Media reports have suggested that it is associated with a new, postconflict generation for whom the traditional conflict between British and Irish national identities is less salient, and other less political dimensions of division are more important (Belfast Telegraph, 2012, December 12). As such, it potentially constitutes a new emergent form of national identity that could both transcend previous conflict and form the basis for cross-community solidarity."
On Sinn Fein members that were interviewed the study had this to say:
"Their principal goal is to bring about a united Ireland, and so there is skepticism among members about an identity that is associated the Northern Ireland state. Only four out of 13 participants indicated any acceptance of a Northern Irish identity, and in all cases, this was heavily qualified. Several gave very short answers and simply rejected the authenticity of Northern Irishness entirely. One interviewee described their feelings on this identity as “Disaster. Fudge. Offensive.” Several claimed the identity was a divisive media creation that undermines Irishness in the north."
You can see the exact same attitudes time and again repeated across threads from certain posters on here.
This extract from a young person's response is particularly illuminating:
"Extract 1. “It’s not necessarily something that we wanted but we have it” [Focus Group 27]
1. I would consider myself to be Northern Irish rather than Irish. I don’t know…
2. I feel that I identify more with people from this area of the country, when you go
3. down south you don’t get treated like you’re from this country. You know rightly
4. when you go down south they treat you like you’re a northerner from the north, I just
5. don’t think we are the same and it’s not necessarily something that we wanted but we
6. have it"
I would recommend that anyone with any interest in exploring the Northern Irish identity and how and why people see themselves differently should read this study a couple of times.0 -
Or you could just be like me and live thereThat is not a fact, that is your opinion, an opinion that belongs sometime in the late 1960s and is half a century out of date.
This is a really interesting academic piece that explores the Northern Irish identity:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1a7c/16bd314a13f746c61fbcc8005268771d6459.pdf
Some really good insights:
" Recent survey data supports this assertion, showing that Northern Irish is the most popular identity option among 18–24 year olds (ARK, 2015). Media reports have suggested that it is associated with a new, postconflict generation for whom the traditional conflict between British and Irish national identities is less salient, and other less political dimensions of division are more important (Belfast Telegraph, 2012, December 12). As such, it potentially constitutes a new emergent form of national identity that could both transcend previous conflict and form the basis for cross-community solidarity."
On Sinn Fein members that were interviewed the study had this to say:
"Their principal goal is to bring about a united Ireland, and so there is skepticism among members about an identity that is associated the Northern Ireland state. Only four out of 13 participants indicated any acceptance of a Northern Irish identity, and in all cases, this was heavily qualified. Several gave very short answers and simply rejected the authenticity of Northern Irishness entirely. One interviewee described their feelings on this identity as “Disaster. Fudge. Offensive.” Several claimed the identity was a divisive media creation that undermines Irishness in the north."
You can see the exact same attitudes time and again repeated across threads from certain posters on here.
This extract from a young person's response is particularly illuminating:
"Extract 1. “It’s not necessarily something that we wanted but we have it” [Focus Group 27]
1. I would consider myself to be Northern Irish rather than Irish. I don’t know…
2. I feel that I identify more with people from this area of the country, when you go
3. down south you don’t get treated like you’re from this country. You know rightly
4. when you go down south they treat you like you’re a northerner from the north, I just
5. don’t think we are the same and it’s not necessarily something that we wanted but we
6. have it"
I would recommend that anyone with any interest in exploring the Northern Irish identity and how and why people see themselves differently should read this study a couple of times.0 -
Irish and Ulster Scots are two very different languages, with very different communities who which have very different needs. No-one ever seems to ask Ulster-Scots speakers if they want to be lumped into an act that does not reflect their needs. There seems to be an assumption that they only exist to temper the demands of Irish speakers.
I don't have any particular gra for Ulster-Scots. If people are truly concerned about achieving parity of esteem for both communities and mutual respect of traditions, then a Minority Languages Act is the way to go. Anything else, either denying language rights or insisting on an Irish Language Act only, is an attempt by one or other side to oppress the other.0 -
A big long rant with very little substance and you are one of the many on here who would rather use you time telling me I should know why you want Irish language signs up rather that just telling me why you want them.
As I have said, language rights are part of a shared society. Since it's inception, unionism in NI has attacked the language rights of Irish speakers. You might call it a rant with little substance, but it is the problem that Irish speakers have faced, unionists in power denying them their rights.
The issue of language rights goes beyond the issue of signage, I'm not sure why you are focusing on that issue above all else, but the reason Irish speakers want to see Irish on signage is because they want to be able to have their culture and idnetity reflected in the public spaces around them. Irish is not the sole domain of one community or one political ideology, it is part of the herritage of everyone in NI. Denying this and creating a public space that suppresses this and does not allow the Irish language to be seen is clearly an attempt to marginalise and delegitimise the language and unfortunatly it seems that Unionism in the main is still committed to such efforts to marginalise the use of Irish.0 -
Or you could just be like me and live there
Not necessarily. There are so many people in the North and the border counties who are so far down in the trenches that they have dug that they cannot see the blue sky and the bright future of Northern Ireland.
Oftentimes, it is the perspective that outsiders or academics bring that enable us to see things clearly.0 -
I don't have any particular gra for Ulster-Scots. If people are truly concerned about achieving parity of esteem for both communities and mutual respect of traditions, then a Minority Languages Act is the way to go. Anything else, either denying language rights or insisting on an Irish Language Act only, is an attempt by one or other side to oppress the other.
I don't believe anyone who supports an Irish Language Act is insisting on an Irish language act only, or wishes to see language rights denyed to the speakers of Ulster-Scots. I, and I believe the vast majority of people who wish to see an Irish language act would have no problem with an Ulster-Scots Act that reflects the needs of that community, the question is weather or not that community themselves want an act, one should not be forced upon them becasue legislation is provided for Irish. The problem with having a Minority Languages Act is that it is a one size fits all aproch that will serve the needs of neither language.
A minority languages act is not the way to go and neither community actually wants one as far as I can see.0 -
Isn't he entitled to his opinion?especially as its actually his country that's being discussed?
If he wants NI to work that's fine and is the view of many people in other parts of the UK.I'd like to see NI remain part of the UK but I like the fact Ireland has prospered in the last 20-30 years-it is possible for both to exist side by side.
It is also my country and i fell it is a failed state with one half of the community been seen as 2nd class citizens for over 50 years and those who did run it do their hardest to try and keep the status quo instead of working towards a better future******
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I don't have any particular gra for Ulster-Scots. If people are truly concerned about achieving parity of esteem for both communities and mutual respect of traditions, then a Minority Languages Act is the way to go. Anything else, either denying language rights or insisting on an Irish Language Act only, is an attempt by one or other side to oppress the other.
A couple of great posts there blanch but I don’t agree with this one.
People can deny it and condemn me for drawing comparisons but identity here is not symmetrical.
Language seems really important in nationalist thinking as does probable Irish dancing, fleadhs, gaa etc.
Unionist have little interest in many of these but are interested in music/bands, marching, orange culture, ww1 & ww2 history/commemoration and diversity eg broad range of sporting interests etc.
So to suggest a stand alone IL act is useful completely misses the point that language is of no interest to most unionist.
I can certainly support a well thought through and fair culture/identity act which amongst other ensure parity of funding of eg IL and marching bands.0 -
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As I have said, language rights are part of a shared society. Since it's inception, unionism in NI has attacked the language rights of Irish speakers. You might call it a rant with little substance, but it is the problem that Irish speakers have faced, unionists in power denying them their rights.
The issue of language rights goes beyond the issue of signage, I'm not sure why you are focusing on that issue above all else, but the reason Irish speakers want to see Irish on signage is because they want to be able to have their culture and idnetity reflected in the public spaces around them. Irish is not the sole domain of one community or one political ideology, it is part of the herritage of everyone in NI. Denying this and creating a public space that suppresses this and does not allow the Irish language to be seen is clearly an attempt to marginalise and delegitimise the language and unfortunatly it seems that Unionism in the main is still committed to such efforts to marginalise the use of Irish.
Would you accept signs up on designated days as has been done to the union flag in Belfast council. This might be a fair solution0 -
Would you accept signs up on designated days as has been done to the union flag in Belfast council. This might be a fair solution
Designated days was to bring NI into line with the rest of the UK on the flags issue. I would be happy to have NI brought into line with the rest of the UK on the issue of signage too.
On the issue of language, like so much else, it seems unionists really struggle with the idea of British Rights for British Citizens.0 -
Designated days was to bring NI into line with the rest of the UK on the flags issue. I would be happy to have NI brought into line with the rest of the UK on the issue of signage too.
On the issue of language, like so much else, it seems unionists really struggle with the idea of British Rights for British Citizens.
Stop answering the questions that aren’t asked and try answer exactly what is asked0 -
Designated days was to bring NI into line with the rest of the UK on the flags issue. I would be happy to have NI brought into line with the rest of the UK on the issue of signage too.
On the issue of language, like so much else, it seems unionists really struggle with the idea of British Rights for British Citizens.
I think you’ll find the vast majority of the UK does not have a language act. So yeah. Sounds good to me.0 -
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I think you’ll find the vast majority of the UK does not have a language act. So yeah. Sounds good to me.
I think you will find that in those parts of the UK where indigenous lanugages are a relevant issue, that they have legislative protection, except for NI. Why is NI the odd man out in the UK? Unionism!0 -
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citytillidie wrote: »It is also my country and i fell it is a failed state with one half of the community been seen as 2nd class citizens for over 50 years and those who did run it do their hardest to try and keep the status quo instead of working towards a better future
I can see your point that there are a lot of people unhappy with the way things are.Like you say,people need to work towards a better future for all,agreed by the people of NI-NOT people from mainland Britain or Ireland.0 -
I can see your point that there are a lot of people unhappy with the way things are.Like you say,people need to work towards a better future for all,agreed by the people of NI-NOT people from mainland Britain or Ireland.
Aren't equality and parity of esteem the place to start.
Instead of the Orange Order led 'to be equal, you must first persuade us' nonsense we are listening to here.0 -
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Not necessarily. There are so many people in the North and the border counties who are so far down in the trenches that they have dug that they cannot see the blue sky and the bright future of Northern Ireland.
Oftentimes, it is the perspective that outsiders or academics bring that enable us to see things clearly.
Who are these people?0
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