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Greystones school - gender neutral uniforms to be introduced.

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    #692
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    Pretty irrelevant but no I'm not. Speaking anecdotally none of the women I know would give 2 sh1ts (lol) about using a unisex toilet, if anything I think unisex toilets would get rid of thd problem if not enough cubicles for the ladies. There's buckets of women out there who will rightly or wrongly nip into the men's of the q for the ladies is mental

    I agree it probably would help with the queues outside women's toilets.

    Here's a survey:

    https://today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2013/09/13/unisex-toilets-british-women-most-reluctant-share-

    It's from 2013, so the numbers could be better or worse now. Here's a snippet:

    "in Britain, where 56% of women said they are NOT comfortable with the thought of using a unisex toilet"

    I looked at another survey which specially asked women who had previously been sexually abused, and almost none were comfortable with unisex toilets.

    Interestingly most men don't seem to care.


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    #693
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    Sittingpretty wrote:
    I don’t ever want to suffer the horror of unisex toilets. I don’t necessarily have an issue with them being provided in addition to rather than in place of the old classic fir/mná toilets.

    Sittingpretty wrote:
    Only time I’ve ever used a men’s toilet is in my twenties at a night club when there’s a queue at the ladies and I’ve needed to go and there’s no option.

    Sittingpretty wrote:
    I think you’ll find there’s many women who would feel the same.

    Horses for courses as I said I'm a woman and I feel the opposite. Why not have one large unisex loo with multiple cubicles and then have 1 individual toilet. The people who don't want to unisex don't have to and the people who don't care either way can. It's a toilet like, everyone's sh1t stinks, it's max 5 mins in there.


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    #694
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    Horses for courses

    arah jaysus look can we not get gender sorted before moving on like this!


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    #695
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    I agree it probably would help with the queues outside women's toilets.

    Here's a survey:

    https://today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2013/09/13/unisex-toilets-british-women-most-reluctant-share-

    It's from 2013, so the numbers could be better or worse now. Here's a snippet:

    "in Britain, where 56% of women said they are NOT comfortable with the thought of using a unisex toilet"

    I looked at another survey which specially asked women who had previously been sexually abused, and almost none were comfortable with unisex toilets.

    Interestingly most men don't seem to care.


    So the majority of people don't mind?


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    #696
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    OMM 0000 wrote:
    "in Britain, where 56% of women said they are NOT comfortable with the thought of using a unisex toilet"

    OMM 0000 wrote:
    I looked at another survey which specially asked women who had previously been sexually abused, and almost none were comfortable with unisex toilets.


    I'm not here to dictate what other women should be comfortable with, so that's fair enough. I will say I do think there's a big difference between a group of 6 year old girls and boys using the same toilets and a group of adults. At primary school age, it really makes no difference and as I said before probably way more practical in terms of supervision


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    #697
    Sittingpretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,872 ✭✭✭Sittingpretty


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    Horses for courses as I said I'm a woman and I feel the opposite. Why not have one large unisex loo with multiple cubicles and then have 1 individual toilet. The people who don't want to unisex don't have to and the people who don't care either way can. It's a toilet like, everyone's sh1t stinks, it's max 5 mins in there.

    Why not just have it the other way around though? Provide a unisex toilet for those that require it and keep the others as they are.

    As you say horses for courses but I’d imagine most people would prefer this than the suggestion that all establishments provide unisex toilets on a large scale and one for those of us that prefer the status quo.

    Anyways I’ve strayed off topic, as you say, to each their own :)

    As I said before I think the pendulum has swung way too far and I personally feel pandering to the gender agenda needs to stop but that’s a whole other thread :)


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    #698
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    I'm not here to dictate what other women should be comfortable with, so that's fair enough. I will say I do think there's a big difference between a group of 6 year old girls and boys using the same toilets and a group of adults. At primary school age, it really makes no difference and as I said before probably way more practical in terms of supervision

    I can agree with that.


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    #699
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    I'm not here to dictate what other women should be comfortable with, so that's fair enough. I will say I do think there's a big difference between a group of 6 year old girls and boys using the same toilets and a group of adults. At primary school age, it really makes no difference and as I said before probably way more practical in terms of supervision


    Yeah, you often hear people on boards talking about the damage single sex schools do to young people's ability to interact with each other.

    Seems like treating little kids just as kids without constantly hammering home the message that boys and girls are totally different and must therefore wear completely different clothes and use different toilets would be a healthier, more natural way to let them be instead of rigidly segregating them the way we used to.


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    #700
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    OMM 0000 wrote:
    I can agree with that.


    Ok so then why is there an issue with these toilets in Greystones then?


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    #701
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Brian? wrote: »
    Ha! I just remembered that my school had gender neutral toilets as well, I finished primary school in the 1990(Give it a lash Jack).


    We all turned out to be polyamorous gender fluid Pansexuals though. So maybe it was a mistake.

    Really? All cubicles or urinals mixed in?


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    #702
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    Really? All cubicles or urinals mixed in?

    Zero urinals. It was only when I went to secondary we got to use urinals.

    I don’t know if you’re trying to poke holes in my story. But there were 2 toilet cubicles per class room. Shared boys and girls.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #703
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    Ok so then why is there an issue with these toilets in Greystones then?

    I can't keep repeating myself over and over, so I think I'm going to have to leave this discussion as I don't enjoy these weird time wasting circular conversations, but the issue I have is a gender neutral ideology, which I (and many others) consider damaging is being implemented in this school.

    This includes gender fluid children, cross dressing children, and gender neutral toilets. It never stops there though. This ideology also includes gender neutral sports, gender neutral pronouns, and so on. The more extreme end is the crazy notion that boys and girls are biologically the same.

    It's not simply "boys wearing what they want". I don't believe the people claiming that's all it is really believe that. That would mean they haven't thought this through at all.

    I posted a link earlier which talked about some of the ways it damages children. Some people don't want to believe this, just like they don't want to believe a boy wearing a skirt to/from school is going to be bullied by his peers.

    As I've said a million times, I can accept there a school called The Gender Neutral School which implements these policies, but it needs to be private. I think it's wrong the public school system forces this ideology on children, and that the tax payers have to pay for it.

    The school system already has too many problems (e.g. forcing religion down kids' throats) so we shouldn't be adding more.

    There's nothing wrong with boys and girls having their own uniforms in school. Just like there's nothing wrong with boys and girls having separate toilets. You are creating problems by removing these non-issues.

    I have no problem with schools debating ideologies.

    I'm also fine, of course, if a student really is both genders or gender imbalanced or whatever, that kid getting some exceptions to their clothing or whatever. I don't think anyone has any issues with the real biological cases where a person's gender identity is not within the normal limits. But they can be handled on a case by case basis and don't require the entire school to remove gender.

    I don't care if you're an adult who wants to call yourself gender binary or whatever. Go for it. It's your life.

    That's roughly my position on all this.


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    #704
    briangriffin
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭briangriffin


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Yeah, it really does seem that a lot of these reactions are down to some undefinable discomfort with the very idea of boys wearing skirts.
    That gut reaction is then post-rationalized with fantasies about how it's actually part of a wider plan to manipulate society for unspecified (but clearly nefarious) purposes.

    There have been numerous articles linked in this thread that make very plausible arguments as to why boys wearing skirts at primary school age is a concern. Read them.


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    #705
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    briangriffin wrote: »
    There have been numerous articles linked in this thread that make very plausible arguments as to why boys wearing skirts at primary school age is a concern. Read them.


    Are they just opinion pieces or are they scientific studies on the impact of skirt-wearing on small boys?


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    #706
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Brian? wrote: »
    Zero urinals. It was only when I went to secondary we got to use urinals.

    I don’t know if you’re trying to poke holes in my story. But there were 2 toilet cubicles per class room. Shared boys and girls.

    No. Just wondering about how it worked. I went to a boys primary. Two big toilets with multiple urinals (or multiple spaces with a tiled wall to piss on) and 2-3 cublicles, 1-2 out of commission at any time.


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    #707
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    B0jangles wrote:
    Yeah, it really does seem that a lot of these reactions are down to some undefinable discomfort with the very idea of boys wearing skirts.

    Are you saying you're the opposite? Undefinably comfortable with the idea of boys wearing skirts...?

    I'm kidding...

    This is my last comment.


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    #708
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Are they just opinion pieces or are they scientific studies on the impact of skirt-wearing on small boys?
    Scientific studies in this area are a bit of an oxymoron. It's still all about opinions, interpretations and responses to questions!


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    #709
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Are you saying you're the opposite? Undefinably comfortable with the idea of boys wearing skirts...?

    I'm kidding...

    This is my last comment.


    Honestly, I'd probably be a bit surprised to see a little boy in a skirt*, because it's not something you see very often. But I wouldn't be disturbed by it, or threatened by it, or start worrying that it's some kind of sign that society is being secretly changed by mysterious political powers.


    Lots of things were uncommon once and became ordinary.


    Women wearing trousers used to be unthinkable, then rare and laughable, then ordinary.
    Men pushing prams used to be unthinkable, then rare and laughable, then ordinary.


    If it becomes commonplace for boys and men to wear skirts, then that too will become unremarkable. That's how society works, that's how it has always worked. Things change, some people freak out about it until they get used to it, or until the next change makes them freak out all over again.


    *except if it was a kilt of course! Because kilts are already acceptable skirts for men to wear. Which just shows how silly and arbitrary the whole 'No skirts for boys!' thing is.


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    #710
    Dual wheels
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Dual wheels


    This gender bending is a leftie fad and it’s not right bringing kids into it, how in the name of high school football would a young lad of 9 or 10 think oh I should be a girl, it’s despicable


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    #711
    mondeo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭mondeo


    Will other students really bully those male class mates who decide to wear a dress to school ? I thought homosexuality was socially accepted at this day and age ? Is ireland still homophobic ? Do they not teach kids in school these days that its normal to be a homosexual ?

    When I was in school in the early 2000's the worst thing someone could call you was gay..... Most lads reacted against being called that. So I am guessing the whole " Your gay!" thing is still going on with young blokes trying to irritate eachother in school these days then ?


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    #712
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,345 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    mondeo wrote: »
    Will other students really bully those male class mates who decide to wear a dress to school ? I thought homosexuality was socially accepted at this day and age ? Is ireland still homophobic ? Do they not teach kids in school these days that its normal to be a homosexual ?

    When I was in school in the early 2000's the worst thing someone could call you was gay..... Most lads reacted against being called that. So I am guessing the whole " Your gay!" thing is still going on with young blokes trying to irritate eachother in school these days then ?

    Maybe. I do think homophobia still exists in Ireland in school/workplace. I even know people who voted Yes in the marriage referendum and they'd say the odd homophobic thing. People are careful of what they say around certain people.
    Homophobic bullying would be covered along with other types of bullying.


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    #713
    wrestlemaniac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭wrestlemaniac


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    I can't keep repeating myself over and over, so I think I'm going to have to leave this discussion as I don't enjoy these weird time wasting circular conversations, but the issue I have is a gender neutral ideology, which I (and many others) consider damaging is being implemented in this school.

    This includes gender fluid children, cross dressing children, and gender neutral toilets. It never stops there though. This ideology also includes gender neutral sports, gender neutral pronouns, and so on. The more extreme end is the crazy notion that boys and girls are biologically the same.

    It's not simply "boys wearing what they want". I don't believe the people claiming that's all it is really believe that. That would mean they haven't thought this through at all.

    I posted a link earlier which talked about some of the ways it damages children. Some people don't want to believe this, just like they don't want to believe a boy wearing a skirt to/from school is going to be bullied by his peers.

    As I've said a million times, I can accept there a school called The Gender Neutral School which implements these policies, but it needs to be private. I think it's wrong the public school system forces this ideology on children, and that the tax payers have to pay for it.

    The school system already has too many problems (e.g. forcing religion down kids' throats) so we shouldn't be adding more.

    There's nothing wrong with boys and girls having their own uniforms in school. Just like there's nothing wrong with boys and girls having separate toilets. You are creating problems by removing these non-issues.

    I have no problem with schools debating ideologies.

    I'm also fine, of course, if a student really is both genders or gender imbalanced or whatever, that kid getting some exceptions to their clothing or whatever. I don't think anyone has any issues with the real biological cases where a person's gender identity is not within the normal limits. But they can be handled on a case by case basis and don't require the entire school to remove gender.

    I don't care if you're an adult who wants to call yourself gender binary or whatever. Go for it. It's your life.

    That's roughly my position on all this.

    How is it forcing an ideology on children, that you the public need to pay for??
    At the end of the day, the parents need to go and buy the skirt for their child. If they're going to the hassle of buying it and facilitating their child going to school in it, do you not think there has been serious consideration put in?

    Secondly, it's not about removing non-issues toilet wise, it's about saying there are two toilets, you can use either one.


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    #714
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    My boys, when they were little used to tell me the boys toilets in their school had pee all over the seat and all over the floor. I'm sure teachers see that all the time. Not very nice or hygienic for little girls who have to sit down on those same seats.
    Also girls from ten upwards have periods and in the beginning it can be difficult for them to manage and they deserve privacy. They may have their very first period at school and be in a right panic, not to mention in a right mess.They may need someone to comfort or assist them and really the last thing they need is a bunch of boys outside the door.
    Not fair at all imo to expect them to share toilets.


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    #715
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    its


    its not very nice for boys to have to sit on piss either fyi


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    #716
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,010 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    I think it's wrong to put little children out in the front line of the gender wars going on at the moment. We need to be a lot further down the road of sorting out all the ramifications of gender fluidity & people self identifying for adults & young adults first before involving such young children in it all. And besides school is the wrong place to carry out social experiments on children, when it is the children that carry the cost of said experimenting. We like to think of school as safe spaces but if they truly were, there wouldn't be the level of bullying going on there that there is. Much better to let a little boy wear a dress outside of school on occasions where his parents are standing by to support him.

    That these children came up with this request themselves suggests to me that at their tender years they know too much about a subject that they shouldn't know about at all considering it affects a tiny, tiny minority of people. Course it only takes one, one whose parents are determined they must grow up to be progressive above all else, ironically so their child will fit in with their kind. Able to think for themselves, my eye.


    Thats bizarre. You want to basically hide the existence of trans people and pretend to children they dont exist.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #717
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Deleted User wrote: »
    its


    its not very nice for boys to have to sit on piss either fyi

    No of course not but in fairness sharing bathrooms with the girls isn't going to make the boys' situation worse (it's the boys' poor aim that's causing the wet seats.)and also of course they can actually achieve half their business in the toilet standing up. Whereas girls sharing bathrooms with boys does makes their situation worse regarding wet seats and also for all their business in the bathroom, they need to sit down.


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    #718
    Dual wheels
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Dual wheels


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    My boys, when they were little used to tell me the boys toilets in their school had pee all over the seat and all over the floor. I'm sure teachers see that all the time. Not very nice or hygienic for little girls who have to sit down on those same seats.
    Also girls from ten upwards have periods and in the beginning it can be difficult for them to manage and they deserve privacy. They may have their very first period at school and be in a right panic, not to mention in a right mess.They may need someone to comfort or assist them and really the last thing they need is a bunch of boys outside the door.
    Not fair at all imo to expect them to share toilets.
    I’m Middle Aged and there’s pee all over the seats in work, no way should girls have to deal with anything at school without their privacy


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    #719
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Thats bizarre. You want to basically hide the existence of trans people and pretend to children they dont exist.

    No. Children should know and respect people, including trans people as individuals when they come across them, not as causes that everything has to resolve around especially given their tiny numbers.


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    #720
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,010 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Dual wheels wrote: »
    This gender bending is a leftie fad and it’s not right bringing kids into it, how in the name of high school football would a young lad of 9 or 10 think oh I should be a girl, it’s despicable

    Nah. Its despicable that people try to force the idea that trans children dont exist.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #721
    _blaaz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Nah. Its despicable that people try to force the idea that trans children dont exist.

    Surely it should be a more or less non issue until puberty??



    Im indifferent to this rule,their kidz let em wear what they want....ffs theyll grow up quick enough


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