Greystones school - gender neutral uniforms to be introduced.

klaaaz

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Yes, woman love the bathroom for a chat/fixing make-up/etc
If gender neutral bathrooms became the norm they should be an user/security to move people.

It depends on the context. Gender neutral bathrooms in the workplace should be fine as workers generally know each other, any problems and the worker would get fired which is pretty personal to the offender on their record. However any of those bathrooms open to the general public like a nightclub where strangers are abound would have to have some security as there's alcohol involved.

....... wrote: »

Surely by this logic even if there was only a few trans people using gender neutral bathrooms then its worth it to have them?

Having gender neutral bathrooms(regarding adults) is not an exclusive need of trans people, some trans people are fine with using the opposite gender bathrooms which they've done without a hassle for decades. I think it's the non-binary people pushing for the gender neutral bathrooms rather than the binary trans.

weldoninhio

MrFresh wrote: »

Competitively?

Yes, you played to win. If we played World Cup and you didn’t get through you had to watch the next few rounds until there was a winner. If we played bashins and you were in goals when the last goal was scored you got a dead arm.

weldoninhio

klaaaz wrote: »

It depends on the context. Gender neutral bathrooms in the workplace should be fine as workers generally know each other, any problems and the worker would get fired which is pretty personal to the offender on their record. However any of those bathrooms open to the general public like a nightclub where strangers are abound would have to have some security as there's alcohol involved.



Having gender neutral bathrooms(regarding adults) is not an exclusive need of trans people, some trans people are fine with using the opposite gender bathrooms which they've done without a hassle for decades. I think it's the non-binary people pushing for the gender neutral bathrooms rather than the binary trans.

If there is an allegation of impropriety in a gender neutral work bathroom, what is used as evidence?? It’s one employees word against the other. You may have CCTV in the corridor showing both parties entering the bathroom, but after that it’s he said, she said. Should all bathrooms now have CCTV??

weldoninhio

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Actually, that’s not it. There not being a competitive element can allow children to develop their skills playing against other children which is more useful than practicing alone. A friend of mine coaches a children’s football team and is trying to implement this. Other countries who produce better footballers (some with small populations like us) focus on skills rather than competition in primary school children. In a country where the levels of overweight people are rising, including children, shouldn’t we be encouraging more children to take part in sports rather than discouraging them? I’m not anti-competition. There’s a lot of benefits to it. But I think you’re being a tad short-sighted here.

That is a theory. They come and go. It’s the current “coaching” de jour. It will be something else in a few years.

MrFresh

MrFresh wrote: »

So you think a kid wearing a skirt or using the same restroom as a girl will be a decision that effects the rest of their lives? Can you connect those dots a little?

theyll be the fella that wore a skirt to school for a good long while after

of course you'll have to ban anyone saying it, but they will still probably be able to remember it and think it unless technology comes on in leaps and bounds

anyway if it's ~just wearing a skirt~ why is it such a big deal to not do it at school.

ToddyDoody

Gender is an offensive concept these days...

klaaaz

weldoninhio wrote: »

If there is an allegation of impropriety in a gender neutral work bathroom, what is used as evidence?? It’s one employees word against the other. You may have CCTV in the corridor showing both parties entering the bathroom, but after that it’s he said, she said. Should all bathrooms now have CCTV??

I'm not a detective Garda :P Some bathrooms have cctv outside the cubicles already thanks to our wonderful compo claims industry.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

weldoninhio wrote: »

That is a theory. They come and go. It’s the current “coaching” de jour. It will be something else in a few years.

And why not test that theory? It will take a while to figure out if it’s working but it’s better to try something new than keep the status quo which is doing Irish football no favours.

Annasopra

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I have no doubt they do. But sometimes children also decide that they are the opposite gender and commit to it but it’s just a phase. So as a parent, I’d give the child the freedom to explore that without putting any label on them. I wouldn’t want them to feel like they had to stick to that path if they eventually realised they were happy with their biological sex.

That seems like perfectly reasonable parenting; listen the child, give them a chance to work through things, allow them to explore and ensure that they are supported at all time in their decisions.

Annasopra

peddlelies wrote: »

There's a reason why you need to hold a child's hand while crossing a busy street or to help them add 2 and 2 together during their homework exercises.

If you think it's an extreme view that very young pre pubescent kids just past being toddlers don't exactly have the rational thinking needed to make decisions that will effect the rest of their lives then perhaps you should take a look at yourself.

Like most things in the US, trends make their way here. The activists in this thread will say "sure it's only bathrooms" but they know exactly what they're hoping for.

It will happen of course, be-mist the cries of "How dare you" and the "Slippery slope" jargon for simply questioning the logic behind such pseudo idiocy.

What exactly do you think "the activists" are hoping for?

Brian?

....... wrote: »

Jesus gives presents????????

He turns himself into biscuits.

MrFresh

weldoninhio wrote: »

Yes, you played to win. If we played World Cup and you didn’t get through you had to watch the next few rounds until there was a winner. If we played bashins and you were in goals when the last goal was scored you got a dead arm.

That is not competitively, that's playing for fun. I believe you said that makes pansies out of boys.

weldoninhio

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

And why not test that theory? It will take a while to figure out if it’s working but it’s better to try something new than keep the status quo which is doing Irish football no favours.

So rip up the Dutch school of thinking we’ve been using for the past 5/10 years with Ruud Dokter etc because there’s a new fad in town?? What about in 5/10 years when 2 speedy wingers and target men in the box comes back into fashion?? Let me guess, rip up the non competitive nonsense because there is a new theory in town?? Winning breeds winning.

It’s well and good saying that at La Masia they don’t keep score until U16s, but La Masia have their pick of some of the most talented kids in the world.

weldoninhio

MrFresh wrote: »

That is not competitively, that's playing for fun. I believe you said that makes pansies out of boys.

Competitively: in a way that strives to gain or win something by defeating others.

You do realise the aim of World Cup and most other kids games is to defeat all of the other kids? No child plays to come 6th in it.

Church on Tuesday

In some schools this wouldn't really be an issue.

In many many more it certainly would be and a boon for, shall we say, less enlightened types who attend school.

MrFresh

weldoninhio wrote: »

Competitively: in a way that strives to gain or win something by defeating others.

You do realise the aim of World Cup and most other kids games is to defeat all of the other kids? No child plays to come 6th in it.

i hate to break it to you but playing heads and vollies with your mates is not competitive sports. In those sports days with participation medals and the football games with no score the kids still do their best. They still try to win the event they are in and they still try to score goals. It's pretty sad that you look down on them because they don't rise to your level of playing for a dead arm.

briangriffin

Originally Posted by Triceratops Ballet View Post
a little kid deciding to wear a skirt a couple of times is a decision that's going to impact the rest of their lives? seriously? there's a big leap from Timmy is wearing a skirt to school cos he likes it to Timmy is now Tina.
The decision to wear a skirt does not mean Timmy has to/will/will want to have a sex change. In most cases it'll be a phase, he'll be happy at the time and morto on his 21st when there's a picture up on the wall of the local GAA club.
A skirt is just a skirt, it doesn't have magical powers. Millions of kids go round dressed as Elsa / Spiderman all year round nobody is worried they'll start freezing people/leaping off buildings as a consequence.

The problem is that children of this age are very malleable, they are not able to reason with the same logic an adult has. Because their brains are developing they need adult guidance and support. Teaching children that they could grow up trapped in the wrong body has huge ramifications for their mental health growing up. Lets say you as an adult say to your boy yes you can wear a dress to school, wear whatever you want that's ok gender doesn't matter. So the child does and then decides to do it again the next day and the next.
We all have thousands of thoughts everyday and over 90% of those thoughts are the same as the day before so if an idea that I can wear a dress I might be a girl has been affirmed by the adult then that idea can become ingrained and become a perceived reality. Children are very easily influenced by peers and by social media introducing gender identity in primary schools is nothing more than a social experiment performed by adults who are obsessed with being the most open/progressive versions of themselves they can be. That's fine you can become trans if you wish as an adult that's 100% fine by me but introducing this in primary school is nothing short of lunacy.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7767662/students-school-17-pupils-changing-gender-autistic/ doesnt seem very progressive to me.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jordan-peterson-gender-politics-has-no-place-in-the-classroom

briangriffin

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I actually think allowing kids to just wear whatever uniform they feel most comfortable is the opposite of introducing the concept of gender to them. If you introduce gender "rules" like boys wear trousers girls wear skirts then you've actually introduced gender as a concept to them

The age spectrum in primary school is 4-12. Girls will start to get their periods from probably 10 onwards maybe as young as 9 in come cases, so the topic of sex isn't really optional for primary school kids.

Children are taught about changes to their bodies in 5th class they are taught where babies come from in 6th class. From junior infants to 4th class children are taught the stay safe programme and the correct medical terms for their body parts.

Triceratops Ballet

briangriffin wrote:

The problem is that children of this age are very malleable, they are not able to reason with the same logic an adult has. Because their brains are developing they need adult guidance and support. Teaching children that they could grow up trapped in the wrong body has huge ramifications for their mental health growing up. Lets say you as an adult say to your boy yes you can wear a dress to school, wear whatever you want that's ok gender doesn't matter. So the child does and then decides to do it again the next day and the next. We all have thousands of thoughts everyday and over 90% of those thoughts are the same as the day before so if an idea that I can wear a dress I might be a girl has been affirmed by the adult then that idea can become ingrained and become a perceived reality. Children are very easily influenced by peers and by social media introducing gender identity in primary schools is nothing more than a social experiment performed by adults who are obsessed with being the most open/progressive versions of themselves they can be. That's fine you can become trans if you wish as an adult that's 100% fine by me but introducing this in primary school is nothing short of lunacy.

briangriffin wrote:

The problem is that children of this age are very malleable, they are not able to reason with the same logic an adult has. Because their brains are developing they need adult guidance and support. Teaching children that they could grow up trapped in the wrong body has huge ramifications for their mental health growing up. Lets say you as an adult say to your boy yes you can wear a dress to school, wear whatever you want that's ok gender doesn't matter. So the child does and then decides to do it again the next day and the next. We all have thousands of thoughts everyday and over 90% of those thoughts are the same as the day before so if an idea that I can wear a dress I might be a girl has been affirmed by the adult then that idea can become ingrained and become a perceived reality. Children are very easily influenced by peers and by social media introducing gender identity in primary schools is nothing more than a social experiment performed by adults who are obsessed with being the most open/progressive versions of themselves they can be. That's fine you can become trans if you wish as an adult that's 100% fine by me but introducing this in primary school is nothing short of lunacy.

Teaching children they can't wear x or y because of their gender is introducing gender identity to them!

Also you can allow your son to wear a skirt or your daughter to wear trousers without talking to them about their gender at all. You don't have to teach them anything about being in the wrong body.

"Mammy can I wear a skirt?"

"why do you want to wear a skirt?"

"I don't know I just want to see what it's like"

"OK pet"

You don't have to explore the meaning of gender or prescribed gender roles or norms, you just have to listen to and support your kids

donkeykong5

weldoninhio wrote: »

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Thats bizarre. You want to basically hide the existence of trans people and pretend to children they dont exist.

As a percentage of the Irish population they barely do exist. It's like 0.001% of the population or something.

Lately it seems about 50% .

Triceratops Ballet

briangriffin wrote:

Children are taught about changes to their bodies in 5th class they are taught where babies come from in 6th class. From junior infants to 4th class children are taught the stay safe programme and the correct medical terms for their body parts.

I know, I was responding to a poster that said primary school was too young to introduce topics like sex and gender

briangriffin

MrFresh wrote: »

i hate to break it to you but playing heads and vollies with your mates is not competitive sports. In those sports days with participation medals and the football games with no score the kids still do their best. They still try to win the event they are in and they still try to score goals. It's pretty sad that you look down on them because they don't rise to your level of playing for a dead arm.

Participation medals devalue any competition. It's not competitive sports at primary school age that cause children to give up sports its parents complaining to coaches that their child is not getting a game and then removing their child from the team instead of taking them outside and practicing with them to improve their skill level. If a child hasn't achieved a certain skill level by the time they leave primary school they will more often than not give that sport up when they go to secondary school and never play it again. m
Competition improves skill level by encouraging children to practice to get on the team and try to win the competition. If they are not good enough to get on the team then you would hope coaches would try to play them and encourage them as often as they can, most coaches do after all they are volunteers looking to do their best.
Go games for GAA go up to age 8 in Ireland they are non competitive. Our
system works pretty well. In spain they have competitive soccer from a very young age.

briangriffin

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I know, I was responding to a poster that said primary school was too young to introduce topics like sex and gender

Teaching a 5 year old boy that he could be a girl is too young in my opinion that's my point.

I actually can't believe I have to type that.

Triceratops Ballet

briangriffin wrote:

Teaching a 5 year old boy that he could be a girl is too young in my opinion that's my point.

briangriffin wrote:

I actually can't believe I have to type that.

Cool, I didn't say anything about teaching 5 year old boys that they could be girls so you didn't have to type that.

briangriffin

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Teaching children they can't wear x or y because of their gender is introducing gender identity to them!

Also you can allow your son to wear a skirt or your daughter to wear trousers without talking to them about their gender at all. You don't have to teach them anything about being in the wrong body.

"Mammy can I wear a skirt?"

"why do you want to wear a skirt?"

"I don't know I just want to see what it's like"

"OK pet"

You don't have to explore the meaning of gender or prescribed gender roles or norms, you just have to listen to and support your kids

Wow that's a fantastic level of denial you are in there.
You seem to be confused there, yes we do teach them about gender by dressing them and by toilet training them and everything else. We say things like "be a good boy and eat your dinner" we don't say be a good boy to my daughter and eat your dinner. We teach them constants to provide them with a physical reality where they can thrive.

briangriffin

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Cool, I didn't say anything about teaching 5 year old boys that they could be girls so you didn't have to type that.

A 5 year old would be a primary school aged child. They are all exposed to this.

Triceratops Ballet

briangriffin wrote:

Wow that's a fantastic level of denial you are in there. You seem to be confused there, yes we do teach them about gender by dressing them and by toilet training them and everything else. We say things like "be a good boy and eat your dinner" we don't say be a good boy to my daughter and eat your dinner. We teach them constants to provide them with a physical reality where they can thrive.

Again I was responding to someone who equated a boy being allowed to wear a skirt to teaching kids about gender, I'm pointing out that telling him he can't wear a skirt is also teaching him about gender. Context is important.

Triceratops Ballet

briangriffin wrote:

A 5 year old would be a primary school aged child. They are all exposed to this.

What???!

Exposed to what?

Primary school kids learn about sex. That's true.

Nobody is proposing that 5 year old boys should be taught they might be girls.

briangriffin

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

What???!

Exposed to what?

Primary school kids learn about sex. That's true.

Nobody is proposing that 5 year old boys should be taught they might be girls.

Introducing gender neutral toilets and allowing boys to wear skirts in school will expose 5 year olds to the idea that boys can be girls. If some of those boys wearing the skirts are transgender it reinforces this.
Sex education happens in classrooms where children are the same age.

Triceratops Ballet

briangriffin wrote:

Introducing gender neutral toilets and allowing boys to wear skirts in school will expose 5 year olds to the idea that boys can be girls. If some of those boys wearing the skirts are transgender it reinforces this. Sex education happens in classrooms where children are the same age.

Give over, they'll use the same toilet as the girls, the same way they do at home they probably won't even notice the difference unless they have someone at home ranting about how it's weird or disgusting. Nobody is going to be standing at the door of the loo going "see now that you use this toilet it means boys can be girls"