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Saoradh dissident republican march in Dublin

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    #662
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    citytillidie wrote: »
    Must make the loyalist the worst of the lot as they killed more bit not a peep from you about that

    I am sure that if there were people on her acting as apologists for Loyalist violence then there would be many posters attacking their attitudes. I would for sure. So don't be surprised when posters come on here to counter the posters spouting SF propaganda and acting as apologists for PIRA actions in the Troubles.


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    #663
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Point of order...I didn't call them the 'Brits'.

    I didn't discredit them for what they did in ww2 either, I merely pointed out that their defence then and their continued defence of our airspace is not the altruistic gesture it is sometimes portrayed as - it is much more 'defence of themselves' due to the proximity of our island. That proximity and their continued presence here is currently buggering up their desires to leave the EU. And once again you can see that they don't so much care for NI as they do about themselves. Simple reality.

    The IRA and the IMC both stated that armaments were stolen from caches before decommissioning. Something tells me the culprits would have been those that went dissident and refused to accept the GFA. So not sure what your point is.

    So is this a roundabout admission that Britain since the 1930's played and plays a positive role on the island of Ireland? Even if their actions in defending our airspace etc. by scrambling jets to meet the Russians when they fly over our airspace may not be altruistic at least they are doing it.

    The funny thing is that those who use and have used the simplistic demand that Britain should just leave Ireland, would be among the first to demand that they come back and protect them, if indeed they had left, or did leave NI all of a sudden, and civil war kicked off there, as it inevitably would.


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    #664
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,178 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    So is this a roundabout admission that Britain since the 1930's played and plays a positive role on the island of Ireland? Even if their actions in defending our airspace etc. by scrambling jets to meet the Russians when they fly over our airspace may not be altruistic at least they are doing it.

    The funny thing is that those who use and have used the simplistic demand that Britain should just leave Ireland, would be among the first to demand that they come back and protect them, if indeed they had left, or did leave NI all of a sudden, and civil war kicked off there, as it inevitably would.

    It may have escaped your notice that Britain created Northern Ireland and the concentration of one identity, whose bigoted and sectarian rule caused it to go up in flames.

    Rather than call on them to protect or to come back, I have always stridently called on them to leave, as it is the only way imo that we can create a real and lasting peace here. There is nothing 'simplistic' in that.

    The simplisitic and lazy thing to do is ignore what is happening and to satisfied with an 'acceptable level of violence'.

    What happened with Lyra McKee, as has always happened periodically, is that 'acceptable level of violence' has been crossed, hence the sudden interest.
    People have been living with the Real, New, Continuity IRA and all the other groups not content with GFA since 1998.

    A lot of the condemnation and moralising going on at the minute sounds very hollow tbh.


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    #665
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,178 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    NI suffered in the Belfast blitz in WW2 and stood shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the UK -do you think Britain will abandon such a valiant nation?-dream on.

    If I were Unionist, I would have been devastated by the GFA, frankly and I would have felt utterly abandoned by May pulling the rug from under me over Brexit tbh.
    There are a lot of things Unionism has been afraid to admit to itself. But I think their behaviour since the GFA shows quite clearly that they know in their hearts and soul what it really means. Hence their love of the Brexit idea regardless of what it will mean for their prosperity. Anything that drives a wedge between the south and north is to be grasped with both hands.


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    #666
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It may have escaped your notice that Britain created Northern Ireland and the concentration of one identity, whose bigoted and sectarian rule caused it to go up in flames.

    Rather than call on them to protect or to come back, I have always stridently called on them to leave, as it is the only way imo that we can create a real and lasting peace here. There is nothing 'simplistic' in that.

    The simplisitic and lazy thing to do is ignore what is happening and to satisfied with an 'acceptable level of violence'.

    What happened with Lyra McKee, as has always happened periodically, is that 'acceptable level of violence' has been crossed, hence the sudden interest.
    People have been living with the Real, New, Continuity IRA and all the other groups not content with GFA since 1998.

    A lot of the condemnation and moralising going on at the minute sounds very hollow tbh.

    The usual mealy-mouthed BS.

    Let whoever wants to change the status of NI campaign for it in a peaceful manner - they'll be in for a rude-shock when the notion is rejected in the ROI but let them try.

    The Brits just aren't going to 'leave' NI, as anyone with a modicum of intelligence understands.

    The current status of NI has been accepted by the vast majority North and South of the island - your usual attempts at deflection onto the DUP or British is shameful in the context of the murder of a young woman.

    Shame on you Francie lad.

    Shame on you.


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    #667
    Fusitive
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Fusitive


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    The funny thing is that those who use and have used the simplistic demand that Britain should just leave Ireland, would be among the first to demand that they come back and protect them, if indeed they had left, or did leave NI all of a sudden, and civil war kicked off there, as it inevitably would.

    Thats what the British wanted, a civil war to break out in the North. John Weir who was an RUC Seargent and a member of the UVF Glenanne gang and has provided huge amounts of testimony about the troubles said they were colluding with the UVF to organise a mass shooting at a Catholic school to make the conflict spiral out of control and for a civil war to break out so that British Forces would have justification to go to full war in the North.

    All these things sound like baths!t conspiracy theories but these are British sworn affidavits on collusion during the troubles. It's not Nationalist propaganda.


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    #668
    citytillidie
    Registered Users Posts: 22,035 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    I am sure that if there were people on her acting as apologists for Loyalist violence then there would be many posters attacking their attitudes. I would for sure. So don't be surprised when posters come on here to counter the posters spouting SF propaganda and acting as apologists for PIRA actions in the Troubles.

    But there is people here backing what the BA did so that's just as bad

    ******



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    #669
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,156 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    NI suffered in the Belfast blitz in WW2 and stood shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the UK -do you think Britain will abandon such a valiant nation?-dream on.

    Didn't churchill offer the north to the free state in return for the free state entering the war?

    Weirdly, it's the most nationalistic people in england who care the least about the north. There was a survey which showed that people who felt most strongly about brexit would be the people most likely to say they'd give up NI.


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    #670
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    The usual mealy-mouthed BS.

    Let whoever wants to change the status of NI campaign for it in a peaceful manner - they'll be in for a rude-shock when the notion is rejected in the ROI but let them try.

    The Brits just aren't going to 'leave' NI, as anyone with a modicum of intelligence understands.

    The current status of NI has been accepted by the vast majority North and South of the island - your usual attempts at deflection onto the DUP or British is shameful in the context of the murder of a young woman.

    Shame on you Francie lad.

    Shame on you.


    Mod

    Dont post in this thread again. For ignoring warnings and for use of uncivil language. Everyone please heed this as a warning as well. Thanks.


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    #671
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,178 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Grayson wrote: »
    Didn't churchill offer the north to the free state in return for the free state entering the war?

    Weirdly, it's the most nationalistic people in england who care the least about the north. There was a survey which showed that people who felt most strongly about brexit would be the people most likely to say they'd give up NI.

    Thatcher reviewed pulling out as well as did Harold Wilson before her.

    May's first agreement with the EU is just the latest example of the UK talking up the sanctity of the 'union' while attempting to do what suits Britain (or some would say the English part of that union.)


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    #672
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    If I were Unionist, I would have been devastated by the GFA.

    I'm a Unionist, as you know and the GFA (*) delighted me. It's took republican terrorism out of play; the biggest threat to people on this island and guaranteed that NI will remain as part of the UK for the rest of my lifetime; speaking as a thirty something. We both know that a UI is a complete non-starter from an economic perspective. If you disagree with this, I'd welcome a financial road map for a UI. The likes of Saoradh show us exactly where republicanism is these days; on it's last legs.

    (*) I was opposed to certain parts of the agreement such as the release of republicans from prison.


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    #673
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    NI suffered in the Belfast blitz in WW2 and stood shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the UK -do you think Britain will abandon such a valiant nation?-dream on.

    Its not a matter of Britain abandoning a "valiant nation". When the British see a possible majority for unification they will offer a border poll. Its not abandonment, it will be democracy as agreed under the terms of the GFA. In the same way as the English allowed a unification poll in Scotland.

    I sincerely hope that if Irish unification is ever voted for and accepted North and South, that the British or some other international peacekeeping force will be deployed in the usual NI hotspots for a good many years.


  • Options
    #674
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    Fusitive wrote: »
    Thats what the British wanted, a civil war to break out in the North. John Weir who was an RUC Seargent and a member of the UVF Glenanne gang and has provided huge amounts of testimony about the troubles said they were colluding with the UVF to organise a mass shooting at a Catholic school to make the conflict spiral out of control and for a civil war to break out so that British Forces would have justification to go to full war in the North.

    All these things sound like baths!t conspiracy theories but these are British sworn affidavits on collusion during the troubles. It's not Nationalist propaganda.

    So you are focusing on one single conspiracy theory rather then the mountain of evidence that the British have spent billions and the lives of many of their soldiers with little or no thanks over the years in suppressing violence from both sides in NI and avoiding what would have escalated into a full blown civil war there between two sets of armed hardliners?


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    #675
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,178 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Berserker wrote: »
    I'm a Unionist, as you know and the GFA (*) delighted me. It's took republican terrorism out of play; the biggest threat to people on this island and guaranteed that NI will remain as part of the UK for the rest of my lifetime; speaking as a thirty something. We both know that a UI is a complete non-starter from an economic perspective. If you disagree with this, I'd welcome a financial road map for a UI. The likes of Saoradh show us exactly where republicanism is these days; on it's last legs.

    (*) I was opposed to certain parts of the agreement such as the release of republicans from prison.

    What immediately raises the hackles of the dominant unionist party these days is the involvement of Dublin in any way shape or form.
    That is motivated by a deep seated insecurity, so I take your delight with the GFA with a pinch of salt tbh. Unionists knew what it meant. And they would be 'delighted' to wreck it. Hence the Brexit mess.

    I could never pretend to have a 'roadmap to a UI' financial or otherwise. But I have to inform you that republicanism is far from dead. Work is being done in preparation for a UI by the very people I thought would never go near it.

    https://webarchive.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/implementationofthegoodfridayagreement/jcigfa2016/brexit-and-the-future-of-ireland.pdf


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    #676
    evil_seed
    Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭evil_seed


    There's far too many pages to trawl through to get the info I'm looking for.
    Can anyone ELI5 what Saoradh stand for and what NIRA stand for?


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    #677
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What immediately raises the hackles of the dominant unionist party these days is the involvement of Dublin in any way shape or form.
    That is motivated by a deep seated insecurity, so I take your delight with the GFA with a pinch of salt tbh. Unionists knew what it meant. And they would be 'delighted' to wreck it. Hence the Brexit mess.

    I could never pretend to have a 'roadmap to a UI' financial or otherwise. But I have to inform you that republicanism is far from dead. Work is being done in preparation for a UI by the very people I thought would never go near it.

    https://webarchive.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/implementationofthegoodfridayagreement/jcigfa2016/brexit-and-the-future-of-ireland.pdf

    Yes it is obvious that many in the DUP were not is favour of the GFA and would like to see it shrivel out of existence.

    However it is equally clear to many neutral observers that SF don't seem to be in any great rush to restart the institutions of the GFA either.

    The GFA and devolved government in NI was leading to a separate NI identity among many NI people, particularly many of the younger generation in NI who didn't want to label themselves as British or Irish. This emergence of a nascent NI identity was an uncomfortable development for SF so in many ways they are happy to see the devolved government break down. Revolutionary movements thrive on chaos not settled conditions.


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    #678
    Fusitive
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Fusitive


    evil_seed wrote: »
    There's far too many pages to trawl through to get the info I'm looking for.
    Can anyone ELI5 what Saoradh stand for and what NIRA stand for?

    Saoradh are the alleged Republican political wing of the NIRA which stands for the New IRA.


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    #679
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    NI suffered in the Belfast blitz in WW2 and stood shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the UK -do you think Britain will abandon such a valiant nation?-dream on.

    The north is a far cry from what anyone could term as a nation


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    #680
    Fusitive
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Fusitive


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    So you are focusing on one single conspiracy theory rather then the mountain of evidence that the British have spent billions and the lives of many of their soldiers with little or no thanks over the years in suppressing violence from both sides in NI and avoiding what would have escalated into a full blown civil war there between two sets of armed hardliners?

    No not one conspiracy, there's is literal mounds of testimony(probably a library at this stage) of British collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland.


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    #681
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    zapitastas wrote: »
    The north is a far cry from what anyone could term as a nation

    NI is obviously predominately a mix of 2 national identities, Irish and British, with a more recent move to a NI identity for some. The problem is that the hardliners on both sides try to pretend that the other identity doesn't exist, or doesn't have the right to exist.


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    #682
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,178 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    Yes it is obvious that many in the DUP were not is favour of the GFA and would like to see it shrivel out of existence.

    However it is equally clear to many neutral observers that SF don't seem to be in any great rush to restart the institutions of the GFA either.

    The GFA and devolved government in NI was leading to a separate NI identity among many NI people, particularly many of the younger generation in NI who didn't want to label themselves as British or Irish. This emergence of a nascent NI identity was an uncomfortable development for SF so in many ways they are happy to see the devolved government break down. Revolutionary movements thrive on chaos not settled conditions.

    I see your point. But again reality confounds your notion. SF agreed a deal with the DUP to get the institutions up and running. But the backroom DUP (the same one that scotched the May agreement with the EU) said no to that.

    What are SF meant to do, just cave in and allow the DUP to keep vetoing progress?


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    #683
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    Fusitive wrote: »
    No not one conspiracy, there's is literal mounds of testimony(probably a library at this stage) of British collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland.

    It all depends on what you define as "British". There was undoubtedly some collusion between some elements of NI-born security forces and some Loyalists, less when the (mainly English) British came over to run things. There was also collusion between some British and some Republicans as all methods of infiltration were used, both fair and foul.

    But the much bigger picture is that the presence of British troops in NI and billions of British money spent there kept a lid on things and prevented what could easily have become a civil war with tens of thousands of casualties and widespread destruction of property, Syria or Libya style.


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    #684
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I see your point. But again reality confounds your notion. SF agreed a deal with the DUP to get the institutions up and running. But the backroom DUP (the same one that scotched the May agreement with the EU) said no to that.

    What are SF meant to do, just cave in and allow the DUP to keep vetoing progress?

    If SF really wanted to restart the devolved government in NI they would be making a much bigger song and dance about it. They will restart it only when and if it suits, same for the DUP. At the moment SF are probably very happy with where the Brexit situation has led and the DUP a lot less happy. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point over the summer the DUP are the ones who will suddenly want to restart the NI executive.


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    #685
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,178 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    If SF really wanted to restart the devolved government in NI they would be making a much bigger song and dance about it.

    How would they do that?


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    #686
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    Its not a matter of Britain abandoning a "valiant nation". When the British see a possible majority for unification they will offer a border poll. Its not abandonment, it will be democracy as agreed under the terms of the GFA. In the same way as the English allowed a unification poll in Scotland.

    I sincerely hope that if Irish unification is ever voted for and accepted North and South, that the British or some other international peacekeeping force will be deployed in the usual NI hotspots for a good many years.

    You are correct,If a majority in NI wish for UI that's fine but until then NI remains part of the Union but the insensitivity of those people marching so soon after events in Derry show there are some who have no respect for anything that we all hold dear.


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    #687
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    How would they do that?

    Oh, I don't know, SF seem to be devoting their energies recently to organising events and making speeches around their opposition to the Brexit "hard border" concept and printing off posters, t-shirts and mugs about Brexit then anything to do with getting a devolved government back in place in NI. There is more mileage there for them.

    If the DUP eventually cop on (which may not even happen) that it would be best for them to get a NI executive back in place I would speculate that SF will at that point ratchet up their demands to allow something to go back in place.


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    #688
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    The only thing that will motivate the likes of the DUP to get the north's institutions up-and-running is the threat of joint British/Irish authority.

    The main reason we even had the DUP get involved in devolved administration of the north according to Paisley himself was that the British government were 'going to pull the plug'.


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    #689
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Berserker wrote: »
    I'm a Unionist, as you know and the GFA (*) delighted me. It's took republican terrorism out of play; the biggest threat to people on this island and guaranteed that NI will remain as part of the UK for the rest of my lifetime; speaking as a thirty something. We both know that a UI is a complete non-starter from an economic perspective. If you disagree with this, I'd welcome a financial road map for a UI. The likes of Saoradh show us exactly where republicanism is these days; on it's last legs.

    (*) I was opposed to certain parts of the agreement such as the release of republicans from prison.

    You've been given the stats, why do you not accept them or what's the problem? The British side killed over 1,000 civilians, they were the biggest threat to Irish people.


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    #690
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    So you are focusing on one single conspiracy theory rather then the mountain of evidence that the British have spent billions and the lives of many of their soldiers with little or no thanks over the years in suppressing violence from both sides in NI and avoiding what would have escalated into a full blown civil war there between two sets of armed hardliners?

    The British armed forces were welcomed by Nationalists at the start. They then started shooting innocents dead. The numbers joining the PIRA increased hugely after this. You are downplaying the massive role the British state played in escalating the war. Once the negative worldwide press they were getting for openly shooting civilians, they changed tactic and colluded with unionist extremists to do the murdering.


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    #691
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    It all depends on what you define as "British". There was undoubtedly some collusion between some elements of NI-born security forces and some Loyalists, less when the (mainly English) British came over to run things. There was also collusion between some British and some Republicans as all methods of infiltration were used, both fair and foul.

    But the much bigger picture is that the presence of British troops in NI and billions of British money spent there kept a lid on things and prevented what could easily have become a civil war with tens of thousands of casualties and widespread destruction of property, Syria or Libya style.

    By shooting innocents dead? By bombing Irish towns and cities? By killing children?


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