Saoradh dissident republican march in Dublin

twinytwo

Berserker wrote: »

I'm a Unionist, as you know and the GFA (*) delighted me. It's took republican terrorism out of play; the biggest threat to people on this island and guaranteed that NI will remain as part of the UK for the rest of my lifetime; speaking as a thirty something. We both know that a UI is a complete non-starter from an economic perspective. If you disagree with this, I'd welcome a financial road map for a UI. The likes of Saoradh show us exactly where republicanism is these days; on it's last legs.

(*) I was opposed to certain parts of the agreement such as the release of republicans from prison.

Would you also be opposed to prosecution of the numerous british soldiers that committed murder and other attrocities and walked away

James Brown

Berserker wrote: »

Never knew the IRA were the negotiating type.

The IRA were in talks with the British government long before any GFA.

forgottenhills wrote: »

If you understood history you would realise that the "Brits" as you call them saved our asses in WW11. They were under enormous military pressure after Dunkirk and if they had signed a peace agreement with Hitler at that point (and they were under huge pressure to do so) then the Nazis could have just walked into Ireland any time they liked. But the so called Republicans will never give credit to Britain for anything.

And getting back to the point of this thread, why are there PIRA apologists on this thread, as you are in a roundabout way defending the actions of the Real IRA? It is also shameful that the PIRA obviously did not destroy all their weapons and explosives as they were supposed to do as part of the GFA, and claimed that they did, and that some of the PIRA's semtex has now turned up in the hands of their equally psychopathic offspring, the Real IRA.

If you knew your history you'd know DeValera supported Hitler and went to the German ambassadors home to give condolences upon hearing of Hitler's death. FYI: The U.S. and many others saved the Brits ass.

Even the PIRA don't support or condone the Real or continuity IRA, so what are you talking about? So when the average drug dealer can pick up a gun you think the current shower are using weapons hid from twenty odd years ago by an organisation they don't belong to?

James Brown

Berserker wrote: »

I'm a Unionist, as you know and the GFA (*) delighted me. It's took republican terrorism out of play; the biggest threat to people on this island and guaranteed that NI will remain as part of the UK for the rest of my lifetime; speaking as a thirty something. We both know that a UI is a complete non-starter from an economic perspective. If you disagree with this, I'd welcome a financial road map for a UI. The likes of Saoradh show us exactly where republicanism is these days; on it's last legs.

(*) I was opposed to certain parts of the agreement such as the release of republicans from prison.

As is the current situation in the partially occupied province of Ulster, yet there is sits.

PeadarCo

Matt Barrett wrote:

If you knew your history you'd know DeValera supported Hitler and went to the German ambassadors home to give condolences upon hearing of Hitler's death. FYI: The U.S. and many others saved the Brits ass.

De Valera visit to the German ambassador apparently was as much to do with how badly he got on with the American ambassador as anything. If you look at Ireland in WW2 Ireland was neutral in favour of the allies especially as the war progressed. From allowing allied planes to use the donegal gap(one of planes that spotted the bismark before it was sunk used this gap) to giving weather reports which helped with DDay. Those being just 2 examples.

On the overall topic the UK will leave when the voters of NI want them to. How killing your fellow Irish people helps persuade them to do this is anyone's guess.

FrancieBrady

forgottenhills wrote: »

Oh, I don't know, SF seem to be devoting their energies recently to organising events and making speeches around their opposition to the Brexit "hard border" concept and printing off posters, t-shirts and mugs about Brexit then anything to do with getting a devolved government back in place in NI. There is more mileage there for them.

If the DUP eventually cop on (which may not even happen) that it would be best for them to get a NI executive back in place I would speculate that SF will at that point ratchet up their demands to allow something to go back in place.

You told us that they should be doing all they can to get the devolved government up and running.

You still haven't told us 'how they would do that'? they have already negotiated a deal, which was agreed then un-agreed by the DUP.

RobMc59

Just watched the sein feinn leader on BBC news and was pleased she was speaking sense for a change- denouncing the killers saying they don't represent Ireland and wants them to disband-the only way forward is via peaceful means.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Just watched the sein feinn leader on BBC news and was pleased she was speaking sense for a change- denouncing the killers saying they don't represent Ireland and wants them to disband-the only way forward is via peaceful means.

Hate having to point this out Rob - but SF have been saying this about dissidents since 1998 and also warning about their rise.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Hate having to point this out Rob - but SF have been saying this about dissidents since 1998 and also warning about their rise.

I wasn't implying she has ever condoned these people-I'm sure she is a decent person if a little misguided -there are some who appear to consider these actions justified(I know you're not one of them)and it's good they can't claim to represent decent law abiding republicans.

James Brown

PeadarCo wrote: »

De Valera visit to the German ambassador apparently was as much to do with how badly he got on with the American ambassador as anything. If you look at Ireland in WW2 Ireland was neutral in favour of the allies especially as the war progressed. From allowing allied planes to use the donegal gap(one of planes that spotted the bismark before it was sunk used this gap) to giving weather reports which helped with DDay. Those being just 2 examples.

On the overall topic the UK will leave when the voters of NI want them to. How killing your fellow Irish people helps persuade them to do this is anyone's guess.

He was a fair weather Nazi sympathiser? Fair enough so. Ask any polish about Ireland leaving the lights on.
Away the point was being put forward that 'the brits saved our asses' in WW 2. Hardly, they needed saving themselves and I think had an in with Hitler.

Agreed. I don't think there's much appetite for a return to the troubles.

James Brown

RobMc59 wrote: »

I wasn't implying she has ever condoned these people-I'm sure she is a decent person if a little misguided -there are some who appear to consider these actions justified(I know you're not one of them)and it's good they can't claim to represent decent law abiding republicans.

Didn't come across like that.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Just watched the sein feinn leader on BBC news and was pleased she was speaking sense for a change- denouncing the killers saying they don't represent Ireland and wants them to disband-the only way forward is via peaceful means.

You were just having a little dig. Fair enough.

Farawayhome

The Soviet Union defeated the Nazi's. Honestly, how many times have people been corrected on basic history?

RobMc59

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Didn't come across like that.




You were just having a little dig. Fair enough.

I probably was which is uncalled for in the current situation.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The IRA were in talks with the British government long before any GFA.



If you knew your history you'd know DeValera supported Hitler and went to the German ambassadors home to give condolences upon hearing of Hitler's death. FYI: The U.S. and many others saved the Brits ass.

Even the PIRA don't support or condone the Real or continuity IRA, so what are you talking about? So when the average drug dealer can pick up a gun you think the current shower are using weapons hid from twenty odd years ago by an organisation they don't belong to?

You have a very warped sense of history, I would like to see some original material confirming this.

Ireland was a soft member of the Allies during WW2.

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/de-valera-hitler-the-visit-of-condolence-may-1945/

" Both Maffey and Gray were fully aware that de Valera was not pro-Axis and that he had been of considerable covert assistance to the Allies during the course of the war. He had never shown any admiration for Hitler or for the Nazis during the 1930s or during the war years."

I think you could do with a history lesson yourself.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I see your point. But again reality confounds your notion. SF agreed a deal with the DUP to get the institutions up and running. But the backroom DUP (the same one that scotched the May agreement with the EU) said no to that.

What are SF meant to do, just cave in and allow the DUP to keep vetoing progress?

Sinn Fein were not prepared to accept a non-sectarian Languages Act, and wanted to continue a sectarian policy of separate languages Acts.

Farawayhome

Farawayhome wrote: »

The Soviet Union defeated the Nazi's. Honestly, how many times have people been corrected on basic history?

You really have plugged yourself in to the collective.

The SFOS directors would be very proud.

PeadarCo

Matt Barrett wrote:

He was a fair weather Nazi sympathiser? Fair enough so. Ask any polish about Ireland leaving the lights on. Away the point was being put forward that 'the brits saved our asses' in WW 2. Hardly, they needed saving themselves and I think had an in with Hitler.

He wasn't a sympathiser. From reading different accounts he seemed not to get along with the US ambassador partly due to tension on how far Ireland would openly support the allies(a lot of what Ireland did was secret at the time). It seems that De Valera by signing the book of condolences was acting as a strictly neutral nation as much to spite the ambassador as anything. It was a stupid thing to do especially with hindsight.

In terms of WW2 what has it to do with the thread? Under the Good Friday agreement it was accepted that the border can only change with a vote. Unfortunately that means its perfectly acceptable for the British army to be in Northern Ireland it is their country. They will leave however if the majority of the people in Northern Ireland can be convinced to leave. So getting the Brits out is as simple as persuading the people of Northern Ireland to vote them out.

briany

The current iterations of the IRA, whether it be the New IRA, the Continuity IRA or any other outfit have no mandate. What they think is a mandate is really just the following of a minority culled from run down areas dotted around the island (you could say they're economically and socially repressed vs politically oppressed). The associated political groups are a pretty deluded shower, too. No right-thinking Irish person with a decent life would want to have anything to do with any of these groups.

If British soldiers were to suddenly start brutalising people on the streets of NI again, I could see a logic to the existence of armed Republican groups, i.e. violence begets violence, but there's absolutely no call for these glorified gangsters attempting to destabilise the peace that has been achieved.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein were not prepared to accept a non-sectarian Languages Act, and wanted to continue a sectarian policy of separate languages Acts.

*Sectarian?

A deal was reached and then un-reached.

So who was not prepared to go back into devolved government?

FrancieBrady

PeadarCo wrote: »

He wasn't a sympathiser. From reading different accounts he seemed not to get along with the US ambassador partly due to tension on how far Ireland would openly support the allies(a lot of what Ireland did was secret at the time). It seems that De Valera by signing the book of condolences was acting as a strictly neutral nation as much to spite the ambassador as anything. It was a stupid thing to do especially with hindsight.

In terms of WW2 what has it to do with the thread? Under the Good Friday agreement it was accepted that the border can only change with a vote. Unfortunately that means its perfectly acceptable for the British army to be in Northern Ireland it is their country. They will leave however if the majority of the people in Northern Ireland can be convinced to leave. So getting the Brits out is as simple as persuading the people of Northern Ireland to vote them out.

The 'border' is under threat of change and I certainly got no vote on it.

Blazer

briany wrote: »

The current iterations of the IRA, whether it be the New IRA, the Continuity IRA or any other outfit have no mandate. What they think is a mandate is really just the following of a minority culled from run down areas dotted around the island (you could say they're economically and socially repressed vs politically oppressed). The associated political groups are a pretty deluded shower, too. No right-thinking Irish person with a decent life would want to have anything to do with any of these groups.

If British soldiers were to suddenly start brutalising people on the streets of NI again, I could see a logic to the existence of armed Republican groups, i.e. violence begets violence, but there's absolutely no call for these glorified gangsters attempting to destabilise the peace that has been achieved.

They never had a mandate. This is about controlling all the illegal activities the IRA get upto ie diesel laundering, cigarette smuggling, drugs etc.
A border makes it far harder but not impossible for them to continue their illegal activities.
Even if the unification happened this scum would still engage in illegal activities, the threatening of witnesses, armed robbery etc etc. Nothing would really change.

FrancieBrady

Blazer wrote: »

They never had a mandate. This is about controlling all the illegal activities the IRA get upto ie diesel laundering, cigarette smuggling, drugs etc.
A border makes it far harder but not impossible for them to continue their illegal activities.
Even if the unification happened this scum would still engage in illegal activities, the threatening of witnesses, armed robbery etc etc. Nothing would really change.

You clearly have never lived near to a border. The harder the border is, the harder it is for the general public to cross, therefore the smuggler, (willing to take the risks) makes more money doing what the general public don't want to do/risk.

i.e. the IRA, if they are smuggling, would be all for as hard a border as they could get.

Blazer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

i.e. the IRA, if they are smuggling, would be all for as hard a border as they could get.

lol lol Francie..you're a gas man...as thick as **** but gas all the same.

Farawayhome

Aegir wrote: »

You really have plugged yourself in to the collective.

The SFOS directors would be very proud.

Are you denying factual history and who are these SFOS directors?

Baggly

Blazer wrote: »

lol lol Francie..you're a gas man...as thick as **** but gas all the same.

Mod

Don't post in this thread again.

Farawayhome

PeadarCo wrote: »

He wasn't a sympathiser. From reading different accounts he seemed not to get along with the US ambassador partly due to tension on how far Ireland would openly support the allies(a lot of what Ireland did was secret at the time). It seems that De Valera by signing the book of condolences was acting as a strictly neutral nation as much to spite the ambassador as anything. It was a stupid thing to do especially with hindsight.

In terms of WW2 what has it to do with the thread? Under the Good Friday agreement it was accepted that the border can only change with a vote. Unfortunately that means its perfectly acceptable for the British army to be in Northern Ireland it is their country. They will leave however if the majority of the people in Northern Ireland can be convinced to leave. So getting the Brits out is as simple as persuading the people of Northern Ireland to vote them out.

The Good Friday agreement is long gone. It's perfectly reasonable to disagree with any treaty and argue for changes.

PeadarCo

FrancieBrady wrote:

The 'border' is under threat of change and I certainly got no vote on it.

The Good Friday agreement was an agreement on the border. It resulted in changes to the Irish constitution that recognised the border in its current form and that Northern Ireland is part of the UK. If you live in North Ireland you got to vote in the brexit vote and subsequent general election. That's the unfortunate reality that Northern Ireland is part of the UK until a democratic vote decides otherwise. That's what people signed up to with the Good Friday agreement. I'd agree with you about the issues Brexit causes for the border however shooting and killing people won't solve it as the British establishment have already washed their hands of Northern Ireland. If you want to avoid a hard border the long term question is how do you persuade those undecided or unionist to vote for a united Ireland. Bombing and killing people didn't work for the British so why should it work for the new group of terrorists.

PeadarCo

Farawayhome wrote:

The Good Friday agreement is long gone. It's perfectly reasonable to disagree with any treaty and argue for changes.

So what changes would you make?

zapitastas

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein were not prepared to accept a non-sectarian Languages Act, and wanted to continue a sectarian policy of separate languages Acts.

Do you want to expand on what you mean by a sectarian languages act?

Farawayhome

PeadarCo wrote: »

So what changes would you make?

I'd rip up the deal personally, there's only one way we can move forward on this island in my opinion. It has to happen in order to have a lasting peace and a replacement of two troublesome states to form one functioning, vibrant country.

FrancieBrady

PeadarCo wrote: »

The Good Friday agreement was an agreement on the border. It resulted in changes to the Irish constitution that recognised the border in its current form and that Northern Ireland is part of the UK. If you live in North Ireland you got to vote in the brexit vote and subsequent general election. That's the unfortunate reality that Northern Ireland is part of the UK until a democratic vote decides otherwise. That's what people signed up to with the Good Friday agreement. I'd agree with you about the issues Brexit causes for the border however shooting and killing people won't solve it as the British establishment have already washed their hands of Northern Ireland. If you want to avoid a hard border the long term question is how do you persuade those undecided or unionist to vote for a united Ireland. Bombing and killing people didn't work for the British so why should it work for the new group of terrorists.

I agree with that, but some didn't sign up to the GFA, and have used violence and other means to bring it down. Supporting Brexit being one of them.

The problem with that is that if it results in a hard border then many will see the GFA being reneged on by one party to it. Where that brings us doesn't bear thinking about.