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Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

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  • Options
    #3602
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,323 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    listermint wrote: »
    Earlier on you said you never met someone from a unionists background that holds similar views to the young girl in the video.

    Now I don't want to call that a fib. But ... Be a bit more honest now.

    So I find it hard to take your opinion on a border polls with any realism

    I have honestly never met a young unionist calling for a UI.


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    #3603
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,790 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    downcow wrote: »
    I have honestly never met a young unionist calling for a UI.

    Well then you hang out with the hard core. Which is evident from your posting style.


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    #3604
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    There is your opinion and there is objective fact. Your opinion that NI is doing just fine, objective fact is that it is significantly poorer than the rest of Ireland.

    Wages aren't as high but cost of living is cheaper-the price of cars for example is eye popping and food is more expensive.
    As far as Britain's payments to NI-so what?-it's part of the UK and that's the right thing to do.I agree that a UI would be preferable down the line if the people of NI want it-which then brings the Irish vote on that which would mean Ireland would be responsible for the integration and cost of that.


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    #3605
    BobbyBobberson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭BobbyBobberson


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Wages aren't as high but cost of living is cheaper-the price of cars for example is eye popping and food is more expensive.
    As far as Britain's payments to NI-so what?-it's part of the UK and that's the right thing to do.I agree that a UI would be preferable down the line if the people of NI want it-which then brings the Irish vote on that which would mean Ireland would be responsible for the integration and cost of that.

    The republic still has higher disposable income.


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    #3606
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    downcow wrote: »
    My confidence is based on - that’s the way negotiations work. I’d be very surprised if Eu said they were prepared to reopen the wa, but they will

    Care to offer any examples or evdence that supports your assertion? If the EU is not of the opinion that it can offer any concessions that would materially effect the likelyhood of ratification by the UK, then why offer concessions?


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    #3607
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,790 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Wages aren't as high but cost of living is cheaper-the price of cars for example is eye popping and food is more expensive.
    As far as Britain's payments to NI-so what?-it's part of the UK and that's the right thing to do.I agree that a UI would be preferable down the line if the people of NI want it-which then brings the Irish vote on that which would mean Ireland would be responsible for the integration and cost of that.

    The north of England is part of the UK and doesn't get this level of subsidy.

    This will start to get heavy focus come recession time in the UK post brexit.


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    #3608
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,395 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    Francie. You have a long wait if you are waiting until a majority in NI want to jettison the Heath service - just to mention one benifit.

    If you also believe that the NHS is going to remain as it is in a post Brexit world then that is your right. I would argue that it will be gorged on by private concerns. Isn't that a huge fear atm in the UK?

    As they say; 'Events'.
    Who would have thought a self inflicted event such as Brexit would have brought an Irish FG Taoiseach to talk of a UI and to be accused of being in cahoots with SF?


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    #3609
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,323 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    listermint wrote: »
    Well then you hang out with the hard core. Which is evident from your posting style.
    Whatever else I am honest.
    I voted yes to support agreement
    I am a UUP supporter but have a situation locally where I need to vote dup to keep sf out ie UUP don’t feature in my constituency
    I have spent 20+ years working to bring communities together and encourage mutual understanding
    I’ve been to a couple of gaa games
    I been in the republican plot in Belfast
    I been to endless masses
    I am not in the loyal orders
    I have had meaningful conversations with hunger strikers
    I have a very broad group of friends ie loyalist to republican, gay straight, black white.
    So I won’t fit in the box you’d like to put me in


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    #3610
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    https://twitter.com/WhelanKarl/status/1096866494292639744

    Worth noting the Independent has put out fake news on a number of occasions in the last few weeks including reporting things Irish politicians said that they HAD NOT said.

    I have yet to see retractions.


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    #3611
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/WhelanKarl/status/1096866494292639744

    Worth noting the Independent has put out fake news on a number of occasions in the last few weeks including reporting things Irish politicians said that they HAD NOT said.

    I have yet to see retractions.

    I have yet to see traitors hanging from a scaffold, which is what some 'reporters' in that rag deserve.


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    #3612
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,398 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    BobbyBobberson wrote: »
    The republic still has higher disposable income.

    People live hand to mouth in the North. Standard of living is very low particular compared to the greater Dublin region.


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    #3613
    trashcan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,939 ✭✭✭trashcan


    downcow wrote: »
    I have honestly never met a young unionist calling for a UI.

    In fairness I don't think she was actually calling for it, but she seemed to have an open mind on the idea, which is refreshing, certainly compared to the other lady who wants to go back 40 years .


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    #3614
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    downcow wrote: »
    Whatever else I am honest.
    I voted yes to support agreement
    I am a UUP supporter but have a situation locally where I need to vote dup to keep sf out ie UUP don’t feature in my constituency
    I have spent 20+ years working to bring communities together and encourage mutual understanding
    I’ve been to a couple of gaa games
    I been in the republican plot in Belfast
    I been to endless masses
    I am not in the loyal orders
    I have had meaningful conversations with hunger strikers
    I have a very broad group of friends ie loyalist to republican, gay straight, black white.
    So I won’t fit in the box you’d like to put me in


    Well if its worth anything, though I cannot seem to reach the same conclusions politically that you appear to espouse, I always think its nice to hear dissenting opinions and something to break from the mold. It's something I wish more people would do, and it's why I like to spend a little time perusing comment sections from the Guardian on one side to the Daily Mail on the other.


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    #3615
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    Varta wrote: »
    I have yet to see traitors hanging from a scaffold, which is what some 'reporters' in that rag deserve.

    No matter your opinion of the work of some in the media, I don't think that is an appropriate comment.


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    #3616
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    downcow wrote: »
    The majority of the north are unionists so I am not sure what you are asking.

    Highest DUP vote ever was 292,316 , that's just 23% of the electorate.

    They did 0.2% better than a party that doesn't even vote in Westminster.


    Besides even if it were true the DUP don't represent all unionists, the UUP aren't exactly pro-Brexit.

    And even if that weren't true the Westminster branch of the DUP don't represent all of the DUP. Arlene is West of the Bann and knows what will happen to her support if it all goes titsup.

    Like the Tories and Labour, the DUP are letting a powerful minority take control regardless of the wishes of the rest of the party and their voters and the electorate.


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    #3617
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    downcow wrote: »
    Francie. You have a long wait if you are waiting until a majority in NI want to jettison the Heath service - just to mention one benifit.
    The Tories are sorting out that one.

    The HSE on the way up is meeting the NHS on the way down.

    A Hard Border will affect the NHS in NI since there some treatments are done south, but you'd know that already coming from Down.


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    #3618
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,748 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Snip

    Yes, Downcow, you are full of what comes down from a cows arse.


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    #3619
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    http://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1096879883849007104


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    #3620
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,827 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    sKeith wrote: »
    England scotland & wales leave. 15,188,406 + 1,018,322 + 854,572
    England scotland & wales remain. 13,266,996 + 1,661,191 + 772,347


    ESW Leave = 17,061,300
    ESW Remain = 15,700,534
    Difference = 1,360,766


    If the 349,442 NI leave voters joined the 440,707 that voted remain (790,149) it would not have changed the outcome of the vote.



    The N.I. unionists votes were not as important as your post seems to suggest.

    Its just as well Wales and Northern Ireland don't have any automobiles, airplane wings, mutton or beef to sell.... Oh wait....


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    #3621
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    No matter your opinion of the work of some in the media, I don't think that is an appropriate comment.

    There are 'reporters' in that rag who seem to be deliberately working against the interests of this state.


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    #3622
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    If you also believe that the NHS is going to remain as it is in a post Brexit world then that is your right. I would argue that it will be gorged on by private concerns. Isn't that a huge fear atm in the UK?

    As they say; 'Events'.
    Who would have thought a self inflicted event such as Brexit would have brought an Irish FG Taoiseach to talk of a UI and to be accused of being in cahoots with SF?
    Talk of a UI is fine and everyone knows the Taoiseach and SF don't get on so who cares?-it not worth trying to bait people about it.
    I think one way or another the days of the Tories are numbered so the NHS will continue and is one of the reasons the people of NI wouldn't want a UI at present.
    Don't get me wrong francie,I'm not critising Ireland I'm just saying it as I see it.


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    #3623
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,395 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Talk of a UI is fine and everyone knows the Taoiseach and SF don't get on so who cares?-it not worth trying to bait people about it.
    I think one way or another the days of the Tories are numbered so the NHS will continue and is one of the reasons the people of NI wouldn't want a UI at present.
    Don't get me wrong francie,I'm not critising Ireland I'm just saying it as I see it.

    I am not trying to 'bait' anybody. Those who signed up to the GFA should know that a border poll at some point is built into it. And there is a not unreasonable expectation that the people are entitled to it.

    Personally, I don't see the benefit of a border poll straight away anyhow. Much better to do it 5 or 6 years after a No Deal Brexit. I think by then northern Ireland will see just how much a Tory or Labour led UK cares about them. I think Nationalists know the answer to this and a goodly few 'unionists'. There is no doubting that the pro-Brexit vote in northern Ireland came from a deep well of unionist insecurity.


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    #3624
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I am not trying to 'bait' anybody. Those who signed up to the GFA should know that a border poll at some point is built into it. And there is a not unreasonable expectation that the people are entitled to it.

    Personally, I don't see the benefit of a border poll straight away anyhow. Much better to do it 5 or 6 years after a No Deal Brexit. I think by then northern Ireland will see just how much a Tory or Labour led UK cares about them. I think Nationalists know the answer to this and a goodly few 'unionists'. There is no doubting that the pro-Brexit vote in northern Ireland came from a deep well of unionist insecurity.

    I agree with you about waiting to see what happens about Brexit but unless people get out and participate in voting they can't belly ache about the people who do get out and vote-correct me if I'm wrong but in the border vote years ago many people with nationalist views refused to participate-so who's fault is that if they are unhappy with the result?


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    #3625
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    downcow wrote: »
    Whatever else I am honest.
    I voted yes to support agreement
    I am a UUP supporter but have a situation locally where I need to vote dup to keep sf out ie UUP don’t feature in my constituency
    ...
    I have a very broad group of friends ie loyalist to republican, gay straight, black white.
    So I won’t fit in the box you’d like to put me in
    SF have been actively canvassing for black gay Asian Jews.

    DUP want them to burn in Hell, so guess who your friends are voting for ?


    SF don't vote in Westminster so can't make things worse.

    The DUP on the other hand are doing their damnedest to get a UI when they aren't lining their pockets, and the Cash For Ash thing is still going on, and Stormont isn't.


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    #3626
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,395 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I agree with you about waiting to see what happens about Brexit but unless people get out and participate in voting they can't belly ache about the people who do get out and vote-correct me if I'm wrong but in the border vote years ago many people with nationalist views refused to participate-so who's fault is that if they are unhappy with the result?

    I haven't the faintest idea why you have deflected to a dubiously structured referendum in a conflict zone nearly 50 years ago to lecture people on voting or not voting in a referendum that hasn't been announced yet.


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    #3627
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,323 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    SF have been actively canvassing for black gay Asian Jews.

    DUP want them to burn in Hell, so guess who your friends are voting for ?


    SF don't vote in Westminster so can't make things worse.

    The DUP on the other hand are doing their damnedest to get a UI when they aren't lining their pockets, and the Cash For Ash thing is still going on, and Stormont isn't.

    I can assure you I can make a bigger list of disgraceful stuff that sf are up to than you can make for the dup. But that won’t get us anywhere. They are both fairly entrenched, sectarian parties with pretty shady stuff in their past. I am not sure the point you are trying to make.


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    #3628
    woohoo!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 803 ✭✭✭woohoo!!!


    I wouldn't agree with downcow on much, yet I would place more faith with his thoughts on the prospects of a border poll than many folk who know very little about the north and would bang on about the 10 billion plus in subsidies to NI.

    How Brexit turns out may sway the middle ground in the North or may not. A continuing no deal scenario likely would sway the matter but no one can say for certain that a deal won't be struck. I do think a UI is the correct option for the simple and pragmatic reason that, the North is more likely to prosper within Ireland, and the north will have far more sway in Dublin than London, just a numbers game.


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    #3629
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    downcow wrote: »
    I can assure you I can make a bigger list of disgraceful stuff that sf are up to than you can make for the dup. But that won’t get us anywhere. They are both fairly entrenched, sectarian parties with pretty shady stuff in their past. I am not sure the point you are trying to make.
    I don't often find myself agreeing with you. But on this, yeah, I think you're right.


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    #3630
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I haven't the faintest idea why you have deflected to a dubiously structured referendum in a conflict zone nearly 50 years ago to lecture people on voting or not voting in a referendum that hasn't been announced yet.

    If a majority of the people of NI decide they want a vote on a UI that's fine but it's probably not the right time and if some people refuse to vote it's their loss.And I'm not trying to lecture anyone-I'm just expressing an opinion as we all do on here.


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    #3631
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,790 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    woohoo!!! wrote: »
    I wouldn't agree with downcow on much, yet I would place more faith with his thoughts on the prospects of a border poll than many folk who know very little about the north and would bang on about the 10 billion plus in subsidies to NI.

    How Brexit turns out may sway the middle ground in the North or may not. A continuing no deal scenario likely would sway the matter but no one can say for certain that a deal won't be struck. I do think a UI is the correct option for the simple and pragmatic reason that, the North is more likely to prosper within Ireland, and the north will have far more sway in Dublin than London, just a numbers game.

    Downcow swings his opinion depending on the day of the week.

    He pretends to be one thing then does another.

    He pretends to have one set of beliefs then trashes all over people that have similar ones and holds up ones that threaten his beliefs as righteous.

    I don't hold that opinion in any regard. It's scatter gun


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