Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Havockk

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Britannia doesn't even rule Scottish waters.

The Faroe Islands have a one sided relationship with the rest of the world. 98% of their exports are seafood and they import practically everything that isn't food.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47213842?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/cq23pdgvg8vt/faroe-islands&link_location=live-reporting-story


The UK has used the Hard Power of the Royal Navy to renegotiate a deal with them that will allow the Faroese to continue to sell Scottish fish back to Scotland.

I shudder to think how much that little deal will cost them in the long run when dealing with the likes of Japan, USA or China.

How many cod wars did the UK lose to Iceland?

listermint

Havockk wrote: »

Someone posted a video from the Guardian earlier which tells us all we need to know why Unionism has gone all in with Brexit.

John Harris speaks to two women from the 'unionist' community. The young lady wants a United Ireland and the older one threatened war.

For Unionism, this is the very last chance to save the 'Union' it's a desperate gambit that as we all know is destined to fail.

From 12.40 here:

Well the delusion in that one is evident.

"There'll never be a united Ireland. And if there's was one I'd put back on my uniform and fight along side the British to stop it"

She's under the delusion that the British army would step in after a successful referendum to fight some proxy war.

This is why these people think its 1900 again. Lunacy

woohoo!!!

It's true to say that Brexit puts strain on GFA. Leave without an agreement means a border. No country in the world operates without a border except by agreement and alignment. Ergo further strain on GFA, possibly to breaking point. The UKs priority is clearly Brexit and nothing will get in the way, not GFA, not NI. Thereafter, the solution of a UI logically presents itself as a solution.

Partition sowed the seeds of what was the wealthiest part of Ireland turning into the least wealthy. NI is fortunate in that it has a ready made path to exit a UK that doesn't care. The path for Scotland is much more complicated.

Capt'n Midnight

murphaph wrote: »

Answer my question please. How do French customs tell apart chlorinated and non chlorinated chicken in an Irish chicken product?

CBA looking it up.

DNA differences between US and EU breeds.
Also antibiotics and hormones.

Or the presence of bleach or bleached compounds.


Industry wide the risk is not worth the reward.
Having said that there are plenty of examples from England where people were trimming off the really bad bits and salt washing chicken no longer fit for human consumption and selling it back in to the food chain.



The EU position is that with an Irish Sea border and UK factory controls and NI labelling there is no need for a physical hard border in Ulster with a 100% inspection routine as long as there isn't wide spread evasion. It's a fudge.

RobMc59

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Exactly. NI is the second poorest region in the UK with a starting salary 14,000 less a year than ROI.

I've spent a lot of time in Ireland over the last 40 years and the changes in that time are breath taking-the standard of living has improved immeasurably,thanks to what I assume is EU funding,the roads (motorways which were non existent )are a joy-what used to be an epic journey is now a breeze-as I'm sure you all know anyway.So it's easy to see why Ireland has nothing but good things to say about being in the EU and that's fine-it has helped to transform Ireland into a modern,confident country.
BUT-some of the garbage posted on here about NI is equally as breathtaking!-NI isn't the penniless place portrayed by some on here,in a recent trip to Ireland/NI I consciously compared both areas-housing,general cost of living and the "feel" of both places.I love Ireland but see no disadvantage to being in NI-it compares as similar imo.I realise wages are higher in Ireland than NI but so is the cost of living-cars are ridiculously more expensive and for some reason even irish products are dearer in Ireland than NI.
I'm not criticising Ireland as such,I'm just pointing out that NI isn't 2nd best as frequently suggested here.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

If there is a no deal are we going to quickly discover that the gfa does not even mean enough to roi to negotiate on spreading checks between Irish Sea and English Channel.
I would love some to address this. Do they care about gfa or not. You can’t have it both ways.

Didn't you raise this very same question and pseudo-answer about a month ago?

Ireland cares so much about the GFA that they argued for, and were successful in getting, both the EU and the UK (i.e. Theresa May) to "spreading checks between the Irish Sea and the English Channel" - with GB sandwiched in between.

Unfortunately, the DUP had a hissy fit, so the plan was scrapped in favour of checks only in the English Channel.

Unfortunately, the DUP and the ERG then both had hissy fits, and so "we are where we are"

At which point I will put to you again a question that you didn't answer a few days ago: instead of lobbing one hypothetical scenario after another into this discussion, which of the three actual options would you choose right now
- No Deal
- May's Deal (as is, no renegotiation)
- No Brexit
?

briany

listermint wrote: »

Well the delusion in that one is evident.

"There'll never be a united Ireland. And if there's was one I'd put back on my uniform and fight along side the British to stop it"

She's under the delusion that the British army would step in after a successful referendum to fight some proxy war.

This is why these people thing is 1900 again. Lunacy

I, for one, am shocked that a woman who works in Arlene Foster's constituency office would be so against a United Ireland. :pac:

The contrast between and the young girl just a few moments before is interesting. That girl probably never lived through the Troubles, so she's not going to feel the same kind of visceral hatred as the older woman does, because that older woman has probably had experiences that fed into that as well as having grown up at a time when NI was much more polarised than now. There'd be no getting through to her in any circumstance. It's the same kind of mindset that led to little kids getting urine hurled at them as they walked to school during the Holy Cross dispute of 2001.

An Ciarraioch

For the whole of 2018, exports to GB were almost exactly 10% of the total, overtaken by Belgium, while there were big jumps in trade with the US, Japan and the Netherlands also. As for imports, the most notable hike came from Germany, growing by over 50%.

https://cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gei/goodsexportsandimportsdecember2018/

RobMc59

Havockk wrote: »

How many cod wars did the UK lose to Iceland?

Britain conceded in the cod wars because Iceland was threatening to stop NATO vessels,which includes submarines from using their waters as a route which pretty much meant the UK was over a barrel.

Professor Moriarty

Not that you should, but in case you need another reason to detest everything the Tory Right stands for, here is a headline from their 'newspaper' The Telegraph. Naked malice at its finest:

"We're heading for the great Brexit trap - so why not stay in and wreck the EU instead"

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

in a recent trip to Ireland/NI I consciously compared both areas-housing,general cost of living and the "feel" of both places.I love Ireland but see no disadvantage to being in NI-it compares as similar imo.I realise wages are higher in Ireland than NI but so is the cost of living-cars are ridiculously more expensive and for some reason even irish products are dearer in Ireland than NI.
I'm not criticising Ireland as such,I'm just pointing out that NI isn't 2nd best as frequently suggested here.

The important phrase in that paragraph is "in a recent trip ..." and that's the point we've all been making: NI in 2019 is a wholly different place to what it was in 1989. The GFA is almost entirely responsible for NI catching up with the RoI, but it's a fragile improvement, still very dependent on GB subsidies, and very much at risk in the event of a hard Brexit.

Intentionally or not, you also make a point that will no doubt enrage a certain enthusiastic unionist: that NI and the RoI are effectively the same. As a not-Irish person, how would you describe your impressions of NI/RoI compared to Britain - is it "similar" or "different"?

Call me Al

briany wrote: »

I, for one, am shocked that a woman who works in Arlene Foster's constituency office would be so against a United Ireland. :pac:

The contrast between and the young girl just a few moments before is interesting. That girl probably never lived through the Troubles, so she's not going to feel the same kind of visceral hatred as the older woman does, because that older woman has probably had experiences that fed into that as well as having grown up at a time when NI was much more polarised than now. There'd be no getting through to her in any circumstance. It's the same kind of mindset that led to little kids getting urine hurled at them as they walked to school during the Holy Cross dispute of 2001.

She said she wants NI to go back to the way things were 40 years ago. 1979 for those not so hot at maths. A real golden year for prosperity in NI? That speaks volumes about the type of person she is.

Calina

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've spent a lot of time in Ireland over the last 40 years and the changes in that time are breath taking-the standard of living has improved immeasurably,thanks to what I assume is EU funding,the roads (motorways which were non existent )are a joy-what used to be an epic journey is now a breeze-as I'm sure you all know anyway.So it's easy to see why Ireland has nothing but good things to say about being in the EU and that's fine-it has helped to transform Ireland into a modern,confident country.
BUT-some of the garbage posted on here about NI is equally as breathtaking!-NI isn't the penniless place portrayed by some on here,in a recent trip to Ireland/NI I consciously compared both areas-housing,general cost of living and the "feel" of both places.I love Ireland but see no disadvantage to being in NI-it compares as similar imo.I realise wages are higher in Ireland than NI but so is the cost of living-cars are ridiculously more expensive and for some reason even irish products are dearer in Ireland than NI.
I'm not criticising Ireland as such,I'm just pointing out that NI isn't 2nd best as frequently suggested here.

NI gets ten billion from the UK, and funding from Ireland and EU funds. However, it has a high proportion of public service jobs, its devolved government is suspended atm, its economic interests are being undermined by one of its own local parties and its poverty figures are well above those of Ireland.

The UK, in particular many parts which voted Brexit, have benefited directly from EU membership in terms of regional funding and indirectly, in terms of the facilitation of industry providing jobs. Why do they not love the EU fir the same reasons as you attribute to Ireland?

I would not personally choose to live in Dublin right now but nor would I choose to live anywhere in NI.

It is not a ranking contest and in general, you have chose some subjective criteria there.

But I do not think there is any argument to confirm NI's best interests are served by Brexit. They aren't alone there of course: it is few whose interests are served by it.

gooch2k9

Call me Al wrote: »

She said she wants NI to go back to the way things were 40 years ago. 1979 for those not so hot at maths. A real golden year for prosperity in NI? That speaks volumes about the type of person she is.

I imagine she wants them nationalists back in their box. Backed up by her not supporting the GFA.

I'm glad to hear the younger woman say what she said. It shows that there is a future in NI where the constitutional issue won't be the defining factor in politics.

It's also a bit rich to take a shot at comments about soldiers at the border not helping, then proceed to say she'd get her uniform back on!

Calina

RobMc59 wrote: »

Britain conceded in the cod wars because Iceland was threatening to stop NATO vessels,which includes submarines from using their waters as a route which pretty much meant the UK was over a barrel.

I think that's called losing, alright.

woohoo!!!

RobMc59 wrote: »

Havockk wrote: »

How many cod wars did the UK lose to Iceland?

Britain conceded in the cod wars because Iceland was threatening to stop NATO vessels,which includes submarines from using their waters as a route which pretty much meant the UK was over a barrel.

Unfortunately the UK has a history of being threatened, being squeezed by the balls so to speak, before she sees reason. She expects to be the one dealing out threats and bending others to their will. Suez saw them put in their box as they had to take their place in the new world order. Seems they need yet another reminder, trying to talk reason the past 2 years has for precisely nowhere.

Infini

Call me Al wrote: »

She said she wants NI to go back to the way things were 40 years ago. 1979 for those not so hot at maths. A real golden year for prosperity in NI? That speaks volumes about the type of person she is.

Saw that. 3 words: Time marches Onward. You can't go back to the past, its the past and there's things there that should be LEFT in the past and never brought back. Problem with someone like herself is she's still stuck in a thinking that's just no longer relevant to the world of today. They can't or wont adapt to the world of today. The only thing is someone with her way of thinking is a minority way of thinking most people want is firstly their own well being and second their own family's well being.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've spent a lot of time in Ireland over the last 40 years and the changes in that time are breath taking-the standard of living has improved immeasurably,thanks to what I assume is EU funding,the roads (motorways which were non existent )are a joy-what used to be an epic journey is now a breeze-as I'm sure you all know anyway.So it's easy to see why Ireland has nothing but good things to say about being in the EU and that's fine-it has helped to transform Ireland into a modern,confident country.

It has partly to do with funding but mostly to do with what Brexiteers completely miss about participation in the EU - access to markets, talents and opportunity.

FrancieBrady

Infini wrote: »

Saw that. 3 words: Time marches Onward. You can't go back to the past, its the past and there's things there that should be LEFT in the past and never brought back. Problem with someone like herself is she's still stuck in a thinking that's just no longer relevant to the world of today. They can't or wont adapt to the world of today. The only thing is someone with her way of thinking is a minority way of thinking most people want is firstly their own well being and second their own family's well being.

She was standing in Arlene's constituency office, and is representative of a bigoted DUP minority in Fermanagh. Fast dying out and I would imagine the journalist had to work a bit to find her.

Strazdas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Not that you should, but in case you need another reason to detest everything the Tory Right stands for, here is a headline from their 'newspaper' The Telegraph. Naked malice at its finest:

"We're heading for the great Brexit trap - so why not stay in and wreck the EU instead"

Like most far right and right wing populist ideologies, Brexit is primarily a destructive ideology. It's all about tearing something down and having an enemy / scapegoats to hate on : not about building something new up.

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

The important phrase in that paragraph is "in a recent trip ..." and that's the point we've all been making: NI in 2019 is a wholly different place to what it was in 1989. The GFA is almost entirely responsible for NI catching up with the RoI, but it's a fragile improvement, still very dependent on GB subsidies, and very much at risk in the event of a hard Brexit.

Intentionally or not, you also make a point that will no doubt enrage a certain enthusiastic unionist: that NI and the RoI are effectively the same. As a not-Irish person, how would you describe your impressions of NI/RoI compared to Britain - is it "similar" or "different"?

To be honest,imo Ireland,NI and Britain are very similar in how people live etc-moving between the 3 places is seamless in that the day to day living is the same-the obvious difference is the British mainland is crowded whereas Ireland/NI isn't which is an advantage over the UK mainland.
I also think that despite what is frequently written here(I'm talking about all the"I'm going to get along without you now"stuff)Britain/NI and Ireland are going to be most hurt by brexit as they are SO closely aligned and depend on each other for so much-obviously brexit isnt Ireland's fault so the amount of p*ssed off people is understandable.
I'd also say that all 3 places are fearlessly patriotic which isn't a fault but can be very complicated to say the least with regards to NI.

El Weirdo

Call me Al wrote: »

She said she wants NI to go back to the way things were 40 years ago. 1979 for those not so hot at maths. A real golden year for prosperity in NI? That speaks volumes about the type of person she is.

"When we could refuse to employ people if they had a taigy name." - her, probably.

downcow

murphaph wrote: »

Answer my question please. How do French customs tell apart chlorinated and non chlorinated chicken in an Irish chicken product?

I guess the same way as you plan to do at the Irish Sea. I have no idea I am just saying some of the checks can happen at France

woohoo!!!

downcow wrote: »

murphaph wrote: »

Answer my question please. How do French customs tell apart chlorinated and non chlorinated chicken in an Irish chicken product?

I guess the same way as you plan to do at the Irish Sea. I have no idea I am just saying some of the checks can happen at France

France will have enough on its plate checking on stuff coming from Britain. It will not be checking on stuff from NI, that's Ireland's job.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I guess the same way as you plan to do at the Irish Sea. I have no idea I am just saying some of the checks can happen at France

That is not a runner because we have not left the EU - we are still members. A political party wants to take northern Ireland out of the EU and will not allow any compromise that would mitigate the consequences of that.

listermint

downcow wrote: »

I guess the same way as you plan to do at the Irish Sea. I have no idea I am just saying some of the checks can happen at France

No, not they can't . We are in the EU.

So would NI but the English won't let them

Calina

downcow wrote: »

I guess the same way as you plan to do at the Irish Sea. I have no idea I am just saying some of the checks can happen at France

Attitudes like this annoy me. You don't get to say what the EU does within its single market just so you can avoid hard decisions about your obligations. We didn't get a vote and you are the ones leaving.

But most importantly, you freely admit you do not have even the remotest clue what needs to be done here.

It is hand wavey ignorance.

woohoo!!!

No deal better than a bad deal, still being parroted by Dodds today, despite being in the knowledge that no deal is the worst possible option for his constituents and the single most thing to bring about a UI. He needs to spend more time away from the delusion in Westminster.

BobbyBobberson

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've spent a lot of time in Ireland over the last 40 years and the changes in that time are breath taking-the standard of living has improved immeasurably,thanks to what I assume is EU funding,the roads (motorways which were non existent )are a joy-what used to be an epic journey is now a breeze-as I'm sure you all know anyway.So it's easy to see why Ireland has nothing but good things to say about being in the EU and that's fine-it has helped to transform Ireland into a modern,confident country.
BUT-some of the garbage posted on here about NI is equally as breathtaking!-NI isn't the penniless place portrayed by some on here,in a recent trip to Ireland/NI I consciously compared both areas-housing,general cost of living and the "feel" of both places.I love Ireland but see no disadvantage to being in NI-it compares as similar imo.I realise wages are higher in Ireland than NI but so is the cost of living-cars are ridiculously more expensive and for some reason even irish products are dearer in Ireland than NI.
I'm not criticising Ireland as such,I'm just pointing out that NI isn't 2nd best as frequently suggested here.

I am not suggesting Northern Ireland is some penniless hole, I was simply stating facts. I have lived in both and so am acutely aware of the difference. I am aware things are much cheaper here in the North however disposable is still higher in Ireland.

An Ciarraioch

This UK legislation slipped under the radar - largely deals with terrorism, but the manner in which it's written suggests any car, plane or boat either crossing the Border or travelling to GB could be stopped and searched at will:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/3/schedule/3/enacted