Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

Just a follow up to the story about CA, here is video of her at the launch with Banks.

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1097078017720008704

Enzokk

Panrich wrote: »

Do you have to bring your passport if you’re traveling across the border? I never do.

I would guess that if you need a visa to enter the UK you need your passport if you are traveling from Dublin to Belfast. You have to wonder if that was due to specific intelligence that they did the checks or just a random stop and check.

BobbyBobberson

I was wondering that too. When you book the bus online you dont enter nationality so must have been random?

Peregrinus

Enzokk wrote: »

I would guess that if you need a visa to enter the UK you need your passport if you are traveling from Dublin to Belfast. You have to wonder if that was due to specific intelligence that they did the checks or just a random stop and check.

This journey was in the other direction, i.e. Belfast-Dublin.

There are random checks on cross-border buses and trains going south. That's been so for, oh, 15 or 20 years now. I don't know if or how often the UK authorities operate checks on buses or trains going north.

BobbyBobberson

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Other half's bus from Belfast to Dublin stopped at the border today to check passports. Imagine that for all goods and people, jesus.

I've never brought my passport up. I'm too young to remember travelling up there as a child. Was there passport checks pre GFA?

Another question, I work in theatre, and can't get an answer anywhere. If I tour up to the North post hard exit, will we have to fill in carnets, like you do for Switzerland?

Sam Russell

Enzokk wrote: »

I would guess that if you need a visa to enter the UK you need your passport if you are traveling from Dublin to Belfast. You have to wonder if that was due to specific intelligence that they did the checks or just a random stop and check.

I was on a CIE coach going to London quite a few years back (pre-Brexit) and coach was checked at Holyhead by UK immigration. One young lady, of East African appearance, did not get back on the bus.

This is not new.

There are some immigrants who may have a visa for UK or Ireland that is not valid for the other jurisdiction.

They do random checks. There was one case I can think of where a Chinese lady who'd been living in Dublin for over 12 years was caught coming back over the border.

Hurrache

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've never brought my passport up. I'm too young to remember travelling up there as a child. Was there passport checks pre GFA?

I've never been asked for a passport prior to the GFA. But you do get interrogated so the army /RUC get a feel for you.

Myself and 3 mates, on the weekend of the 12th marches, had an interesting day one time. Coming from a friends who was studying in Coleraine we found our usual route home closed for various events. This was prior to Google maps so we didn't know where we were going. Eventually we ran into an RUC/British army road block, 4 lads in their 20s in an Irish reg'd car was not a good look in the midst of orange marches. Got questioned a bit and the RUC guy soon realised we were clueless and we go an escort for a bit. Never asked for ID but it was obvious where we were from.

VinLieger

CelticRambler wrote: »

The fun and games will start later when one or other of these trading partners decides that they want to change the terms. Chances are it'll be the UK that wants to change, as almost everyone else will be quite happy with the EU package.

You have this backwards, if the UK get deals copied they will be getting the better end of the deal. Its going to be the other countries who want things changed as the EU deals were negotiated for a market of 500 million not 60 million. Also everyone is well aware of how desperate the UK is in this regard so they will be looking to take advantage of that. Japan and Argentina have already made plain they wont be copying deals for these reasons.

A Dub in Glasgo

VinLieger wrote: »

You have this backwards, if the UK get deals copied they will be getting the better end of the deal. Its going to be the other countries who want things changed as the EU deals were negotiated for a market of 500 million not 60 million. Also everyone is well aware of how desperate the UK is in this regard so they will be looking to take advantage of that. Japan and Argentina have already made plain they wont be copying deals for these reasons.

That is the way I read the situation and is why there are objections from existing WTO members to the UK just copying the EU WTO conditions

LeinsterDub

A other MP on sky telling lies about GATT article 24 and of course he's not called on it.

ArmaniJeanss

VinLieger wrote: »

You have this backwards, if the UK get deals copied they will be getting the better end of the deal. Its going to be the other countries who want things changed as the EU deals were negotiated for a market of 500 million not 60 million. Also everyone is well aware of how desperate the UK is in this regard so they will be looking to take advantage of that. Japan and Argentina have already made plain they wont be copying deals for these reasons.

But won't an EU - Japan trade deal have included clauses about the export of red wine, olives and feta cheese, and thus be of no benefit to the UK?
Whereas everything Japan exports to the EU they will be happy to continue export to the UK. So in that sense existing deals will be biased in favour of Japan.

EdgeCase

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Yup, just deflect and ignore the substance of the post.

You don't have a monopoly on experience and understanding of people from the North.

Most sectarianism is completely built on a total lack of understanding and exposure to 'themmuns', so yes, growing up with Protestant family who you care for very much removed the bogeyman, 'themmuns' mentality pretty damn well.

This deep exposure is a LITTLE big different to having a conversation with someone from a different background once or twice. It takes a pretty spectacular level of cognitive dissonance to claim to hate those you have known and loved your whole life.

I'm perfectly capable of disagreeing about where I think the future of our home should lie without hate. The way you speak of Nationalists, I'm not so sure you can say the same.

Your stubborn refusal to even countenance that there are other, less entrenched, more 'fairweather' unionists than you belies your own mentality.

Simply put, whether you're of the, 'never, never, never' persuasion yourself when it comes to a United Ireland versus staying part of the United Kingdom, there are huge numbers from both sides who aren't so deeply entrenched. As just one example, there is a significant cohort of the electorate who didn't see the Troubles at all, they weren't born pre-GFA. Do you think its REALLY so unlikely that some of these people may be currently of a Unionist standing, because they believe that right now, remaining part of the UK is in their best interests, but dont hold the same willingness to sacrifice very much at all for this union? That those people will ask themselves, 'what's in it for me' when faced with any question about the future of NI?

Jesus, no one is saying you have to agree with that position, but surely you couldnt honestly believe it's so rare to be practically non-existent as you previously implied?!

I remember back in about 2004 a friend of a friend's cousin was in a band from Northern Ireland and they had ended up gigging in Cork and Kerry. The lads were mostly from unionist backgrounds but were anything but hard-line types - just your average college students. What shocked me was they had no notion of what was south of the border. Most of them had only ever ventured a bit outside NI and generally their impression was of relatively remote areas of the border counties and an assumption that it was very rural and poor and that they'd be unwelcome.

They were fairly taken aback by the vibrancy, foodiness, intense tourism and general wealth in West Cork and Kerry. I just remember them being fairly shocked mind blown by the atmosphere.

I also remember a group of kids in the late 1990s who came down on an exchange programme to a very easy going and open minded C of I comprehensive school in Cork City as part of a cultural exchange. These were Catholic students from NI and they also were fairly mind blown initially that there were southern protestants who were fiercely proud Corkonians, very, very Irish and didn't have a shred of British identity.

There was also a lot of surprise that the protestant Vs Catholic identity thing didn't really apply very much.

There's a lot of lack of familiarity goes on in Ireland and I think there is a bit of a bunker mentality up there and a sense in the south (especially this far south) that the North is dangerous so it's avoided. I've had a few Corkonians absolutely shocked by the fact that Derry or Belfast are just normal cities and good craic.

Whatever about the jurisdictions and identity politics, it would be a terrible shame to go back to the days of that border mentality where people retreat to their respective bubbles and don't interact. There's been a lot of opening up and interaction and normalisation of relations and it's really only since the 1990s.

BobbyBobberson

EdgeCase wrote: »

I remember back

There's a lot of lack of familiarity goes on in Ireland and I think there is a bit of a bunker mentality up there and a sense in the south (especially this far south) that the North is dangerous so it's avoided. I've had a few Corkonians absolutely shocked by the fact that Derry or Belfast are just normal cities and good craic.

Whatever about the jurisdictions ans identity politics, it would be a terrible shame to go back to the days of that border mentality where people retreat to their respective bubbles and don't interact.

Just a short point of this, a mate of mine made a great point recently. When we were in college and wanted to go on the rip in another city in the country no one ever mentioned going to Derry or Belfast. It was just never on our radar. Letterkenny, Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Carlow were all visited but the other two were never even discussed.

Airbus executive was on Marr this morning. Wasnt holding back on what an absolute mess a No deal would be.

VinLieger

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

But won't an EU - Japan trade deal have included clauses about the export of red wine, olives and feta cheese, and thus be of no benefit to the UK?
Whereas everything Japan exports to the EU they will be happy to continue export to the UK. So in that sense existing deals will be biased in favour of Japan.

Yes but the terms of the deal like duration of how long each other have access to the others markets will want to be adjusted in favour of the other countries.

My favorite clip to explain how screwed they are in trade deals is here

WomanSkirtFan8

Panrich wrote: »

Do you have to bring your passport if you’re traveling across the border? I never do.

no you don't at least not on train

Calina

oh god can we please get back to Brexit?

volchitsa

During the Troubles you had to have photo ID, that's why the NI drivers licence had a photo long before the UK one did. No passport though, because it was all in the CTA.

Not too sure what the legal situation is now with the GFA.

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

I've never brought my passport up. I'm too young to remember travelling up there as a child. Was there passport checks pre GFA?

Another question, I work in theatre, and can't get an answer anywhere. If I tour up to the North post hard exit, will we have to fill in carnets, like you do for Switzerland?

Definitely not. They could stop a car and search it or board the Dublin - Belfast train (or bus) but there was no particular requirement on any person to carry a passport or photo ID.

volchitsa

Strazdas wrote: »

Definitely not. They could stop a car and search it or board the Dublin - Belfast train (or bus) but there was no particular requirement on any person to carry a passport or photo ID.

Not for crossing the border, specifically, but when cars were stopped at checkpoints anywhere in NI, the driver was supposed to have photo ID on them at all times. The state of emergency allowed that, unlike GB.

I don't think it was the case, or at least wasn't enforced, for passengers though.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Can we get back on topic please?

Capt'n Midnight

Peregrinus wrote: »

Nothing will change the minds of at least a large chunk of Brexiters. They have a compulsive need for victim status; therefore nothing which is offered to them - whether by their political opponents, or just by life - can ever be good enough. Whatever happens, they will alway feel cheated by it, because they need to feel cheated.

Worse than that, what might satisfy one set of Brexiteers will enrage others.

It's impossible to square that circle.



The largest coherent group by far is Remain.

There are lots of disparate Brexit sub groups.

The whole anti-immigration thing was bait and switch.
May has no intention of blocking entry to the UK, pretty much all that's being done is deporting people who no longer pay tax. Even the £30K "limit" can be fiddled down to £20,800.



A reminder that many successful revolutions end up with a civil war because the only thing uniting them was being anti.

Can anyone imagine how a stable UK government after a Hard Brexit world be especially when special interest groups get concerned over the new trade deals.

An Ciarraioch

No cracks in the divide-and-conquer strategy yet - Estonia holding firm today:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-security-brexit-estonia/irish-backstop-cant-be-changed-for-brexit-deal-estonian-president-idUSKCN1Q60AI?utm_source=reddit.com

Strazdas

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Worse than that, what might satisfy one set of Brexiteers will enrage others.

It's impossible to square that circle.



The largest coherent group by far is Remain.

There are lots of disparate Brexit sub groups.

The whole anti-immigration thing was bait and switch.
May has no intention of blocking entry to the UK, pretty much all that's being done is deporting people who no longer pay tax. Even the £30K "limit" can be fiddled down to £20,800.



A reminder that many successful revolutions end up with a civil war because the only thing uniting them was being anti.

Can anyone imagine how a stable UK government after a Hard Brexit world be especially when special interest groups get concerned over the new trade deals.

It's a very good point. As "revolutions" go, Brexit is a very chaotic one : it encompasses everything from the far left to the far right. Virtually the only thing they have in common is a dislike for the establishment and the status quo and it would seem nearly every political extremist in the UK is on board with the idea.

It is surely doomed for this very reason. There are around ten different versions of Brexiteers, many of whom would regard each other with contempt, never mind anyone of the Remain side.

An Claidheamh

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/WhelanKarl/status/1096866494292639744

Worth noting the Independent has put out fake news on a number of occasions in the last few weeks including reporting things Irish politicians said that they HAD NOT said.

I have yet to see retractions.

She's donned the union jack that one.

She's told in her comments section that she appears not to know much, but the only tweet she has answered is one by a Sindo "journalist" to read an anti-Leo article today - which she has agreed to.

Some Sindo nut. That is her 'research'! LOL

An Claidheamh

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Interesting read.

https://twitter.com/Mr_Considerate/status/1096894695903510528

Brilliant article.

Writer knows his stuff.

Brexiters just have their head in the sand.

BobbyBobberson

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Brilliant article.

Writer knows his stuff.

Brexiters just have their head in the sand.

Yes, interesting stuff. I have to admit I had not realised that about the rights being removed in the WA, apologies if it was covered here previously.

Tell me how

An Claidheamh wrote: »

She's donned the union jack that one.

She's told in her comments section that she appears not to know much, but the only tweet she has answered is one by a Sindo "journalist" to read an anti-Leo article today - which she has agreed to.

Some Sindo nut. That is her 'research'! LOL

I've listened to the BBC Brexitcast Podcast over the last several months and Katya is one of the regulars on it (As is Laura Keunnsberg).

Katya has been consistently reporting a different narrative to what the EU has been saying. She is one of the prime proponents of the line that "The EU wait and wait until the last minute, and then they make compromises".

eagle eye

An Ciarraioch wrote:

No cracks in the divide-and-conquer strategy yet - Estonia holding firm today:

Yeah this is the stuff that makes my blood boil. Somebody from the other side of Europe sticking their nose in. They should keep their mouths shut and stay out of it. It's not like any of their family or friends are going to lose jobs or lose loved ones in a bitter conflict that is likely to reignite.
Like as much as I'm happy with us in Europe the only other English speaking country is leaving.
I'm very worried at how bad things will get here if there is a hard Brexit.

I really, really don't want to hear from leaders of other countries unless they are trying to help sort out this mess.

BobbyBobberson

She was asked a question and answered it. She states that she herself is also worried about a No Deal Brexit and the implications.