New Zoe, new wart?

12-02-2019 11:19am

Power increase to 95ish kW (=130 PS) from 68 or 80 kW sounds good too. I suspect that the car continues to have an active battery cooling too and this combined with reduced price sounds great.

More French competion on the way in form of 208/Corsa/DS3 from PSA will make sure the pricing and specs are compelling for the price.

KCross · 12-02-2019 12:34pm

liamog wrote: »

The number for the entry level ID Neo has been €25,000 for a long time now. The investment made in the platform means it has to be a volume play. I don't really think they'll sell many entry level models though.

Not in the context of Ireland it hasnt. €25k was just a currency conversion from $30k. From there journalists have just ran with that number.

The real indication is that VW said "equivalently spec'd diesel Golf".... they start at €27k here.

liamog · 12-02-2019 12:45pm

KCross wrote: »

Not in the context of Ireland it hasnt. €25k was just a currency conversion from $30k. From there journalists have just ran with that number.

The real indication is that VW said "equivalently spec'd diesel Golf".... they start at €27k here.

The original source for the under €25,000 figure was the German press, so not sure why they would then convert to dollars and back to Euro.

https://edison.handelsblatt.com/erleben/vw-startet-countdown-zur-grossen-elektro-offensive/23093964.html?ticket=ST-792145-1R4XEvEYqLaWEHyzzy4h-ap1

You are likely correct on €27k for Ireland though by the time out extra VAT is added.

KCross · 12-02-2019 1:03pm

liamog wrote: »

The original source for the under €25,000 figure was the German press, so not sure why they would then convert to dollars and back to Euro.

https://edison.handelsblatt.com/erleben/vw-startet-countdown-zur-grossen-elektro-offensive/23093964.html?ticket=ST-792145-1R4XEvEYqLaWEHyzzy4h-ap1

You are likely correct on €27k for Ireland though by the time out extra VAT is added.

Like every article around the pricing it always says "we believe" or "estimate" or "we heard from sources" etc. Even the article you posted says
"First VW ID .: Entry price below 25,000 euros?"

Why the question mark?

The reality is the press dont know. Its made up. We dont know either.

The only thing we do know is what VW have actually said which is "similar price to diesel Golf" which is €27k (minimum) here. Maybe it will be €25k in Germany or some other place but its unlikely, imo, to be €25k here based on what VW have actually said.

https://twitter.com/jstackmann/status/1070616748951515136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1070616748951515136&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theweek.co.uk%2Fhatchback%2F98554%2Fvolkswagen-VW-id-electric-hatchback-2020-prices-specs-range-UK-release-date-driven

Like you, I'll still keep my fingers crossed for a €25k Neo!

liamog · 12-02-2019 1:25pm

True, but it's still counters your claim that the target was a conversion from a $30,000 figure.

VW targeting a German base model at €25,000 sounds very plausible to me. The ID is a big platform play, so needs the volume to sell.

What do we think Renault will need to sell an updated Zoe 40 for to really start taking chunks out of the Clio market?

Mike9832 · 12-02-2019 1:27pm

liamog wrote: »

What do we think Renault will need to sell an updated Zoe 40 for to really start taking chunks out of the Clio market?

20k

If they can't do that with the 10k incentives ( that should be abolished pretty soon eg 20/21)

They might as well give up

12-02-2019 2:26pm

20 K ? most Sold in Ireland cost 15 K basic 1.2 petrols.

That's a hard sell for the Zoe but Zoe as with most electric cars is aimed at the diesel market.

It's easy to compare EV Golf to Diesel Golf, A high spec 184 HP DSG Golf can cost north of 40 K. Making it cheaper than the Egolf which costs a fraction to run.

You can compare the Leaf with the Diesel Pulsar etc.

The Ioniq with the i30 etc.

unkel · 12-02-2019 2:53pm

beauf wrote: »

Seems unlikely price for the ID

€25k was mentioned for the ID, so with Irish 23% VAT minus €5k grant should be around the €26k mark

More than I paid for Ioniq 2 years ago. Should be very possible (and indeed profitable) next year with the cheaper batteries VW is getting and the economies of scale of the worlds first truely mass produced EV.

KCross · 12-02-2019 3:45pm

liamog wrote: »

True, but it's still counters your claim that the target was a conversion from a $30,000 figure.

I've seen reports of $30k being quoted prior to your article, which is dated Sep '18, so I dont know if your article is the original source. And the two figures were suspiciously aligned currency wise at the time that the price came out.

It doesnt really matter which way the currency conversion was done. It is a speculative figure.

Did VW ever confirm €25k for any market?

As I said, the only confirmation I've ever seen is "diesel golf price".

Any references to €25k/$30k dont take into account any local taxes, incentives, customs etc.

It cant be €25k all over Europe and Paddy always pays more anyway.

liamog wrote: »

VW targeting a German base model at €25,000 sounds very plausible to me. The ID is a big platform play, so needs the volume to sell.

Possible but it would be against what VW themselves have said if it was €25k here... that was my original point.

I think we are roughly on the same page anyway with your edit:
"You are likely correct on €27k for Ireland though by the time out extra VAT is added."

unkel wrote: »

€25k was mentioned for the ID, so with Irish 23% VAT minus €5k grant should be around the €26k mark

More than I paid for Ioniq 2 years ago. Should be very possible (and indeed profitable) next year with the cheaper batteries VW is getting and the economies of scale of the worlds first truely mass produced EV.

I'll guess €28500 for bog standard. €30k if you want metallic. Basically very similar to entry level Leaf but a far better car and range, which will force Nissan to re-price.

unkel · 12-02-2019 4:02pm

Cheapest Golf diesel in Germany is €23,875 incl. VAT of 19%. Take that off, add Irish VAT of 23% and deduct our €5k SEAI grant minus the €4k German grant for EVs and we are talking €23.7k for the Neo. Nice

KCross · 12-02-2019 4:18pm

unkel wrote: »

Cheapest Golf diesel in Germany is €23,875 incl. VAT of 19%. Take that off, add Irish VAT of 23% and deduct our €5k SEAI grant minus the €4k German grant for EVs and we are talking €23.7k for the Neo. Nice

I dont get your point. What have German prices got to do with Irish prices?

If anything you've proven my point... it will be priced locally, not globally. Every country has its own taxes and incentives and margins.

A diesel Golf you say is €24k in Germany. Its €3k more here. Why would you then base Irish Neo prices off the base German price.... make no sense at all.

VW have at least on this point been clever with their statements. They have, AFAIK, not declared a Neo price anywhere. They've given a comparison (diesel Golf) so each country has an apples to apples comparison to make... diesel Golf €27k OTR in Ireland.

Mike9832 · 12-02-2019 4:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

20 K ? most Sold in Ireland cost 15 K basic 1.2 petrols.

That's a hard sell for the Zoe but Zoe as with most electric cars is aimed at the diesel market.

Thats not never gonna happen with current tech and without massive government incentives like we have now

For a 300km small EV your looking at

50kWh battery/pack/bms €6000
Motor €700
Controller €700
Charge port €500
Wiring/switches/other etc €600

Thats nearly €10,000 gone already just replacing engine and petrol tank

Add labour and all the other 90% shared ICE parts and you get the picture

Markcheese · 12-02-2019 4:33pm

Whats price is a new Renault zoe here anyway?
25 grand? Or 30 odd?, I've seen both written down..

unkel · 12-02-2019 6:09pm

KCross wrote: »

A diesel Golf you say is €24k in Germany. Its €3k more here.

Difference is mainly our VRT and a little bit because of our higher VAT and who knows a very small difference in margin. Someone do the sums

KCross wrote: »

Every country has its own taxes and incentives and margins.

My calculation above handles the taxes and incentives. But not the margin. Even if there is a full 2 grand more margin on the car in Ireland, it will still be a sub €26k car here...

(provided of course that VW will indeed sell it in Germany for the same price as the currently cheapest VW Golf diesel)

unkel · 12-02-2019 6:12pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Whats price is a new Renault zoe here anyway?
25 grand? Or 30 odd?, I've seen both written down..

€24990 RRP for the base 40kWh model

12-02-2019 6:41pm

KCross wrote: »

I dont get your point. What have German prices got to do with Irish prices?

Irish EV prices are lower than Germany due to better subsidies while ICE cars are more expensive due to negative subsidies (=VRT). So the Neo should actually be cheaper than a diesel Golf here.

KCross · 12-02-2019 8:33pm

unkel wrote: »

Difference is mainly our VRT and a little bit because of our higher VAT and who knows a very small difference in margin. Someone do the sums

My calculation above handles the taxes and incentives. But not the margin. Even if there is a full 2 grand more margin on the car in Ireland, it will still be a sub €26k car here...

(provided of course that VW will indeed sell it in Germany for the same price as the currently cheapest VW Golf diesel)

samih wrote: »

Irish EV prices are lower than Germany due to better subsidies while ICE cars are more expensive due to negative subsidies (=VRT). So the Neo should actually be cheaper than a diesel Golf here.

I've no more knowledghe than anyone else here. Its really down to how you interpret Mr Stackman's comment and he obviously knows how its going to be priced.

When he says "...for the price of a modern Golf Diesel", is he basing that off a base German price translated across the eurozone or is he talking about each local market?

You can interpret it either way that suits your bias or hopes!

What swings me is that I just dont believe VW will price it below a Leaf when it will be a better car. Price it at the same as a Leaf and they will still sell every last one of them and then some.

A 48kWh Neo for <€30k should still be a cracking buy considering the diesels sell very well here at €27k-€35k.

beauf · 12-02-2019 8:40pm

What size is the ID Vs golf Vs leaf Vs Zoe.

I would like something smaller than a golf as a 2nd car.

ewj1978 · 12-02-2019 9:22pm

Id is the same size externally as a golf but supposedly has the interior space of a passat. The Zoe is small.

ei9go · 13-02-2019 12:35pm

The biggest advantage the Zoe has is 22kW charging. In 2 years ownership, I have used the fast chargers at Midway once, Gorey once and Clonshaugh once.

Other than that I have used Waterford FCP and Knocktopher but didn't need to.

It makes it very easy to go anywhere with the large amount of SCP's. I cannot understand what the 64 kW cars are doing with 7 kW AC chargers. Someone never learned their 7 times tables I think.

A friend has an Ioniq and curses the 7 kW charger.

Markcheese · 13-02-2019 6:25pm

unkel wrote: »

€24990 RRP for the base 40kWh model

So if its in or around that,
Or possibly even a couple of grand cheaper.. (possibly not), its the lowest price electric car around, and it's the only small car out there as well..
I suppose a lot will depend on spec and pricing really...

Brera · 13-02-2019 7:57pm

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/next-gen-renault-zoe-targeting-250-mile-range-2019

Intersting that they are talking about using a bespoke platform rather that the old leaf one !

400km real world range and an improved interior based on the new Clio would be fantastic. Combine that with CCS charging at 100KW and they are going to sell like hot cakes.

13-02-2019 9:47pm

They could have increased power a bit more in fairness, a large pack like that is surely capable of much greater power. 130 hp ? not really a lot in fairness, Renault seem to go out of their way to make their cars less desirable.

Brera · 13-02-2019 9:51pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They could have increased power a bit more in fairness, a large pack like that is surely capable of much greater power. 130 hp ? not really a lot in fairness, Renault seem to go out of their way to make their cars less desirable.

Is there really a need to increase it though ? The Zoe is really a City car and the instant torque from the electric motors will make it feel plenty fast when nipping around the streets.

13-02-2019 9:56pm

Plenty of people buy city cars for long distance driving, myself included.

It will be a heavy car and while it will be more powerful than the current model the need to conserve petrol by making powerless ICE cars is no more with the cheap cost of electricity ( compared to diesel ) They could have went to at least 150 Hp.

I presume most people who would buy a Renault will be happy enough but my question is why 130 when you can go to 150 Hp the cost would be minimum ?

Mike9832 · 13-02-2019 9:57pm

Brera wrote: »

Is there really a need to increase it though ? The Zoe is really a City car and the instant torque from the electric motors will make it feel plenty fast when nipping around the streets.

It's not a Twizy

If Renault felt the need to put an expensive 55kWh battery pack with 100kW charging it's meant for a lot more than city driving

With Mad_Lad here they could have put a bit more than 130bhp in, it will still blow away an ioniq, it's not too bad if it's still lightweight like the previous Zoe

Brera · 13-02-2019 10:03pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Plenty of people buy city cars for long distance driving, myself included.

It will be a heavy car and while it will be more powerful than the current model the need to conserve petrol by making powerless ICE cars is no more with the cheap cost of electricity ( compared to diesel ) They could have went to at least 150 Hp.

I presume most people who would buy a Renault will be happy enough but my question is why 130 when you can go to 150 Hp the cost would be minimum ?

I’m guessing they have looked at what the Clio and other cars of a similar size offer and decided to match them.

The current Zoe is similar to the current Clio so they probably see no need to increase the cost or reduce efficiency to offer slightly better performance.

13-02-2019 10:07pm

Brera wrote: »

I’m guessing they have looked at what the Clio and other cars of a similar size offer and decided to match them.

The current Zoe is similar to the current Clio so they probably see no need to increase the cost or reduce efficiency to offer slightly better performance.

Increasing power does not have to decrease efficiency, the person doesn't have to use all the power if they so choose.

The cost increase would be minimal, we've already seen Nissan increasing the power of the Leaf from 109 - 150 Hp using the same motor, yes the electrics would need upgrading but this cost would not be large.

Electric motors can take huge peak power especially water cooled motors such as those in electric cars.

unkel · 13-02-2019 10:20pm

Deleted User wrote: »

They could have increased power a bit more in fairness, a large pack like that is surely capable of much greater power. 130 hp ? not really a lot in fairness, Renault seem to go out of their way to make their cars less desirable.

Ioniq does 0-60 in a touch over 8s with just 118BHP

Given enough torque and programmed well, a Zoe a couple of hundred kg lighter than Ioniq and with 130BHP should do that not much slower than 6s. Plenty quick for most people

And a lot faster than your i3

13-02-2019 10:36pm

Ioniq 0-100 km/h is 10 seconds lol.

Sure any car can be as fast or faster than an i3 it's not that difficult to do, add more power, but not a lot of them will be as much fun to drive and certainly not in a front wheel drive car as I witnessed in the Leaf 40 Kwh.

Mike9832 · 13-02-2019 10:40pm

unkel wrote: »

Ioniq does 0-60 in a touch over 8s with just 118BHP

Given enough torque and programmed well, a Zoe a couple of hundred kg lighter than Ioniq and with 130BHP should do that not much slower than 6s. Plenty quick for most people And a lot faster than your i3

I watch alot of youtube and have never seen an Ioniq get anywhere near 8 secs

unkel · 13-02-2019 11:30pm

Christ lads, do I have to post the link again?

original i3 BEV 6.4s 170BHP
original i3 REx 7.6s 170BHP
33kWh i3 BEV 6.6s 170BHP
33kWh i3 REx 7.1s 170BHP

Linky

Ioniq 8.4s 118BHP

Linky

Ioniq is also considerably heavier than i3 (and a lot less BHP). It's not all about BHP. Torque and the way the system is mapped / controlled by the ECU is far more relevant. The two of you should really be aware of that at this stage.

Mike9832 · 13-02-2019 11:37pm

unkel wrote: »

Christ lads, do I have to post the link again?

original i3 BEV 6.4s 170BHP
original i3 REx 7.6s 170BHP
33kWh i3 BEV 6.6s 170BHP
33kWh i3 REx 7.1s 170BHP

Linky

Ioniq 8.4s 118BHP

Linky

Ioniq is also considerably heavier than i3 (and a lot less BHP). It's not all about BHP. Torque and the way the system is mapped / controlled by the ECU is far more relevant. The two of you should really be aware of that at this stage.

The link is wrong

Every 0-60 on youtube for the Ioniq is 9-10 secs

You try it tomorrow :pac:

eagerv · 13-02-2019 11:52pm

0 to 96.5606 kph :pac:

unkel · 14-02-2019 12:20am

Mike9832 wrote: »

The link is wrong

Links are working fine for me.

I would also prefer to use 0-100km/h but I haven't yet found a site that seems to reliably have the times for most cars. Not from the manufacturer's official figures, but from actual real life tests. If you can find one, I promise I will use that one instead!

I admit that I still do use BHP. I shouldn't. Very hard to switch though when almost everyone you talk to (outside of Germany) does not use kW

14-02-2019 12:59am

Source "Hyundai" https://www.hyundai.co.uk/brochure-request

Even using 100 Km/h v 60 Mph isn't going to add up to 2 seconds in the difference.

bHxTJ7c.jpg?1

14-02-2019 1:06am

unkel wrote: »

I admit that I still do use BHP. I shouldn't. Very hard to switch though when almost everyone you talk to (outside of Germany) does not use kW

Hp v Kw won't change the facts , 0-100 of 10 seconds , 2.13 Mph in the difference between km/h and Mph doesn't add up to 2 seconds.

You might get 9.7 seconds instead.

unkel · 14-02-2019 1:08am

Deleted User wrote: »

Source "Hyundai"

Did you not read my post at all?

The manufacturers official figures are not reliable. They never were. We need an independent comparison site. Like www.zeroto60times.com, but obviously preferably something that compares 0-100km/h times as we use Système Internationale in this country.

Kramer · 14-02-2019 2:55am

unkel wrote: »

Christ lads, do I have to post the link again?

I'll call your link, & raise you 3 more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shvBmNzugkQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqzEcVikvRw
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/hyundai-ioniq-electric-acceleration-test-0-to-50-km-h-in-33-seconds-116794.html

:D:D

Also, I heard from a friend whose neighbour said he heard from someone in the pub who works for someone high up that they read on the interweb from Facebook that his Ioniq can go 0-60 in 6. something seconds & that he regularly gets over 300km range, at motorway speed (+ 10%), even in winter.

I'll have to update the Wiki on that now actually, now that it's confirmed 100% someone on t'internet said so.

denismc · 14-02-2019 3:35am

Oops, I could have sworn this thread was about the Renault Zoe!

My bad!

unkel · 14-02-2019 10:11am

denismc wrote: »

Oops, I could have sworn this thread was about the Renault Zoe!

My bad!

My apologies for contributing to the off topic stuff. And from the above reactions, I reckon some people are just too thick to understand some basic logic / reasoning and keep throwing experiences up from some randomers on youtube, instead of trusting the numbers more from a reliable comparison site...

14-02-2019 12:52pm

denismc, at boards.ie electric forum any thread about specific model of car has to divert to all of the other cars on the market. On a good day they also cover usage of fog lamps and price of diesel at various pumps. And some good old diesel vs. BEV banter.

Oh yea, about the Zoe: The Peugeot 208 BEV will be a great competitor for it.

14-02-2019 2:07pm

unkel wrote: »

My apologies for contributing to the off topic stuff. And from the above reactions, I reckon some people are just too thick to understand some Unkel's logic / reasoning and keep throwing experiences up from some randomers on youtube, instead of trusting the numbers more from a reliable comparison site...

Fixed that for you !

Markcheese · 14-02-2019 2:47pm

Is there a reason for electric cars being front wheel drive? I would have thought with no transmission to worry about it would have been simpler and cheaper to go RWD.

14-02-2019 4:08pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Is there a reason for electric cars being front wheel drive? I would have thought with no transmission to worry about it would have been simpler and cheaper to go RWD.

FWD is cheaper because most ICE cars are FWD so requires less re-tooling of assemble lines, everything is assembled the same the only difference is that a battery is installed instead of fuel tank.

RWD makes a big difference to grip, FWD electrics can be a real pain in the ass when roads are damp and wet, the Nissan Leaf 40 Kwh with the extra torque is very annoying and I asked some people in work how they tolerate it and they said they just drive in eco all the time and go easy on the throttle lol.

The exception is the RWD BMW i3 and Model S and I am not sure whether the Model 3 will be RWD in basic spec.

Look at the youtube videos of the Nissan Leaf assembly, it's on the same assembly line as Nissan's Petrol and Diesel cars.

denismc · 14-02-2019 9:02pm

unkel wrote: »

My apologies for contributing to the off topic stuff. And from the above reactions, I reckon some people are just too thick to understand some basic logic / reasoning and keep throwing experiences up from some randomers on youtube, instead of trusting the numbers more from a reliable comparison site...

samih wrote: »

denismc, at boards.ie electric forum any thread about specific model of car has to divert to all of the other cars on the market. On a good day they also cover usage of fog lamps and price of diesel at various pumps. And some good old diesel vs. BEV banter.

Oh yea, about the Zoe: The Peugeot 208 BEV will be a great competitor for it.

To be clear, my post was tongue in cheek, if it wasn't for the knowledge on this forum I probably wouldn't be driving an E.V.
So keep it coming!

Markcheese · 14-02-2019 10:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

FWD is cheaper because most ICE cars are FWD so requires less re-tooling of assemble lines, everything is assembled the same the only difference is that a battery is installed instead of fuel tank.

RWD makes a big difference to grip, FWD electrics can be a real pain in the ass when roads are damp and wet, the Nissan Leaf 40 Kwh with the extra torque is very annoying and I asked some people in work how they tolerate it and they said they just drive in eco all the time and go easy on the throttle lol.

The exception is the RWD BMW i3 and Model S and I am not sure whether the Model 3 will be RWD in basic spec.

Look at the youtube videos of the Nissan Leaf assembly, it's on the same assembly line as Nissan's Petrol and Diesel cars.

So for the new vw electric platform it's likely to be RWD,

14-02-2019 11:22pm

Markcheese wrote: »

So for the new vw electric platform it's likely to be RWD,

Hallelujah !

reboot · 15-01-2022 8:37am

Just bought the Zoe battery from Renault,£2600.22kwhr.

15-01-2022 9:33am

What year and month is the Zoe as they determine purchase price off the age of the car?

New Zoe, new wart?

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