New Zoe, new wart?

KCross · 12-02-2019 4:18pm

unkel wrote: »

Cheapest Golf diesel in Germany is €23,875 incl. VAT of 19%. Take that off, add Irish VAT of 23% and deduct our €5k SEAI grant minus the €4k German grant for EVs and we are talking €23.7k for the Neo. Nice

I dont get your point. What have German prices got to do with Irish prices?

If anything you've proven my point... it will be priced locally, not globally. Every country has its own taxes and incentives and margins.

A diesel Golf you say is €24k in Germany. Its €3k more here. Why would you then base Irish Neo prices off the base German price.... make no sense at all.

VW have at least on this point been clever with their statements. They have, AFAIK, not declared a Neo price anywhere. They've given a comparison (diesel Golf) so each country has an apples to apples comparison to make... diesel Golf €27k OTR in Ireland.

Mike9832 · 12-02-2019 4:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

20 K ? most Sold in Ireland cost 15 K basic 1.2 petrols.

That's a hard sell for the Zoe but Zoe as with most electric cars is aimed at the diesel market.

Thats not never gonna happen with current tech and without massive government incentives like we have now

For a 300km small EV your looking at

50kWh battery/pack/bms €6000
Motor €700
Controller €700
Charge port €500
Wiring/switches/other etc €600

Thats nearly €10,000 gone already just replacing engine and petrol tank

Add labour and all the other 90% shared ICE parts and you get the picture

Markcheese · 12-02-2019 4:33pm

Whats price is a new Renault zoe here anyway?
25 grand? Or 30 odd?, I've seen both written down..

unkel · 12-02-2019 6:09pm

KCross wrote: »

A diesel Golf you say is €24k in Germany. Its €3k more here.

Difference is mainly our VRT and a little bit because of our higher VAT and who knows a very small difference in margin. Someone do the sums

KCross wrote: »

Every country has its own taxes and incentives and margins.

My calculation above handles the taxes and incentives. But not the margin. Even if there is a full 2 grand more margin on the car in Ireland, it will still be a sub €26k car here...

(provided of course that VW will indeed sell it in Germany for the same price as the currently cheapest VW Golf diesel)

unkel · 12-02-2019 6:12pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Whats price is a new Renault zoe here anyway?
25 grand? Or 30 odd?, I've seen both written down..

€24990 RRP for the base 40kWh model

samih · 12-02-2019 6:41pm

KCross wrote: »

I dont get your point. What have German prices got to do with Irish prices?

Irish EV prices are lower than Germany due to better subsidies while ICE cars are more expensive due to negative subsidies (=VRT). So the Neo should actually be cheaper than a diesel Golf here.

KCross · 12-02-2019 8:33pm

unkel wrote: »

Difference is mainly our VRT and a little bit because of our higher VAT and who knows a very small difference in margin. Someone do the sums

My calculation above handles the taxes and incentives. But not the margin. Even if there is a full 2 grand more margin on the car in Ireland, it will still be a sub €26k car here...

(provided of course that VW will indeed sell it in Germany for the same price as the currently cheapest VW Golf diesel)

samih wrote: »

Irish EV prices are lower than Germany due to better subsidies while ICE cars are more expensive due to negative subsidies (=VRT). So the Neo should actually be cheaper than a diesel Golf here.

I've no more knowledghe than anyone else here. Its really down to how you interpret Mr Stackman's comment and he obviously knows how its going to be priced.

When he says "...for the price of a modern Golf Diesel", is he basing that off a base German price translated across the eurozone or is he talking about each local market?

You can interpret it either way that suits your bias or hopes!

What swings me is that I just dont believe VW will price it below a Leaf when it will be a better car. Price it at the same as a Leaf and they will still sell every last one of them and then some.

A 48kWh Neo for <€30k should still be a cracking buy considering the diesels sell very well here at €27k-€35k.

beauf · 12-02-2019 8:40pm

What size is the ID Vs golf Vs leaf Vs Zoe.

I would like something smaller than a golf as a 2nd car.

ewj1978 · 12-02-2019 9:22pm

Id is the same size externally as a golf but supposedly has the interior space of a passat. The Zoe is small.

ei9go · 13-02-2019 12:35pm

The biggest advantage the Zoe has is 22kW charging. In 2 years ownership, I have used the fast chargers at Midway once, Gorey once and Clonshaugh once.

Other than that I have used Waterford FCP and Knocktopher but didn't need to.

It makes it very easy to go anywhere with the large amount of SCP's. I cannot understand what the 64 kW cars are doing with 7 kW AC chargers. Someone never learned their 7 times tables I think.

A friend has an Ioniq and curses the 7 kW charger.

Markcheese · 13-02-2019 6:25pm

unkel wrote: »

€24990 RRP for the base 40kWh model

So if its in or around that,
Or possibly even a couple of grand cheaper.. (possibly not), its the lowest price electric car around, and it's the only small car out there as well..
I suppose a lot will depend on spec and pricing really...

Brera · 13-02-2019 7:57pm

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/next-gen-renault-zoe-targeting-250-mile-range-2019

Intersting that they are talking about using a bespoke platform rather that the old leaf one !

400km real world range and an improved interior based on the new Clio would be fantastic. Combine that with CCS charging at 100KW and they are going to sell like hot cakes.

13-02-2019 9:47pm

They could have increased power a bit more in fairness, a large pack like that is surely capable of much greater power. 130 hp ? not really a lot in fairness, Renault seem to go out of their way to make their cars less desirable.

Brera · 13-02-2019 9:51pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They could have increased power a bit more in fairness, a large pack like that is surely capable of much greater power. 130 hp ? not really a lot in fairness, Renault seem to go out of their way to make their cars less desirable.

Is there really a need to increase it though ? The Zoe is really a City car and the instant torque from the electric motors will make it feel plenty fast when nipping around the streets.

13-02-2019 9:56pm

Plenty of people buy city cars for long distance driving, myself included.

It will be a heavy car and while it will be more powerful than the current model the need to conserve petrol by making powerless ICE cars is no more with the cheap cost of electricity ( compared to diesel ) They could have went to at least 150 Hp.

I presume most people who would buy a Renault will be happy enough but my question is why 130 when you can go to 150 Hp the cost would be minimum ?

Mike9832 · 13-02-2019 9:57pm

Brera wrote: »

Is there really a need to increase it though ? The Zoe is really a City car and the instant torque from the electric motors will make it feel plenty fast when nipping around the streets.

It's not a Twizy

If Renault felt the need to put an expensive 55kWh battery pack with 100kW charging it's meant for a lot more than city driving

With Jensen Melodic Snowstorm here they could have put a bit more than 130bhp in, it will still blow away an ioniq, it's not too bad if it's still lightweight like the previous Zoe

Brera · 13-02-2019 10:03pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Plenty of people buy city cars for long distance driving, myself included.

It will be a heavy car and while it will be more powerful than the current model the need to conserve petrol by making powerless ICE cars is no more with the cheap cost of electricity ( compared to diesel ) They could have went to at least 150 Hp.

I presume most people who would buy a Renault will be happy enough but my question is why 130 when you can go to 150 Hp the cost would be minimum ?

I’m guessing they have looked at what the Clio and other cars of a similar size offer and decided to match them.

The current Zoe is similar to the current Clio so they probably see no need to increase the cost or reduce efficiency to offer slightly better performance.

13-02-2019 10:07pm

Brera wrote: »

I’m guessing they have looked at what the Clio and other cars of a similar size offer and decided to match them.

The current Zoe is similar to the current Clio so they probably see no need to increase the cost or reduce efficiency to offer slightly better performance.

Increasing power does not have to decrease efficiency, the person doesn't have to use all the power if they so choose.

The cost increase would be minimal, we've already seen Nissan increasing the power of the Leaf from 109 - 150 Hp using the same motor, yes the electrics would need upgrading but this cost would not be large.

Electric motors can take huge peak power especially water cooled motors such as those in electric cars.

unkel · 13-02-2019 10:20pm

Deleted User wrote: »

They could have increased power a bit more in fairness, a large pack like that is surely capable of much greater power. 130 hp ? not really a lot in fairness, Renault seem to go out of their way to make their cars less desirable.

Ioniq does 0-60 in a touch over 8s with just 118BHP

Given enough torque and programmed well, a Zoe a couple of hundred kg lighter than Ioniq and with 130BHP should do that not much slower than 6s. Plenty quick for most people

And a lot faster than your i3

13-02-2019 10:36pm

Ioniq 0-100 km/h is 10 seconds lol.

Sure any car can be as fast or faster than an i3 it's not that difficult to do, add more power, but not a lot of them will be as much fun to drive and certainly not in a front wheel drive car as I witnessed in the Leaf 40 Kwh.

Mike9832 · 13-02-2019 10:40pm

unkel wrote: »

Ioniq does 0-60 in a touch over 8s with just 118BHP

Given enough torque and programmed well, a Zoe a couple of hundred kg lighter than Ioniq and with 130BHP should do that not much slower than 6s. Plenty quick for most people And a lot faster than your i3

I watch alot of youtube and have never seen an Ioniq get anywhere near 8 secs

unkel · 13-02-2019 11:30pm

Christ lads, do I have to post the link again?

original i3 BEV 6.4s 170BHP
original i3 REx 7.6s 170BHP
33kWh i3 BEV 6.6s 170BHP
33kWh i3 REx 7.1s 170BHP

Linky

Ioniq 8.4s 118BHP

Linky

Ioniq is also considerably heavier than i3 (and a lot less BHP). It's not all about BHP. Torque and the way the system is mapped / controlled by the ECU is far more relevant. The two of you should really be aware of that at this stage.

Mike9832 · 13-02-2019 11:37pm

unkel wrote: »

Christ lads, do I have to post the link again?

original i3 BEV 6.4s 170BHP
original i3 REx 7.6s 170BHP
33kWh i3 BEV 6.6s 170BHP
33kWh i3 REx 7.1s 170BHP

Linky

Ioniq 8.4s 118BHP

Linky

Ioniq is also considerably heavier than i3 (and a lot less BHP). It's not all about BHP. Torque and the way the system is mapped / controlled by the ECU is far more relevant. The two of you should really be aware of that at this stage.

The link is wrong

Every 0-60 on youtube for the Ioniq is 9-10 secs

You try it tomorrow :pac:

eagerv · 13-02-2019 11:52pm

0 to 96.5606 kph :pac:

unkel · 14-02-2019 12:20am

Mike9832 wrote: »

The link is wrong

Links are working fine for me.

I would also prefer to use 0-100km/h but I haven't yet found a site that seems to reliably have the times for most cars. Not from the manufacturer's official figures, but from actual real life tests. If you can find one, I promise I will use that one instead!

I admit that I still do use BHP. I shouldn't. Very hard to switch though when almost everyone you talk to (outside of Germany) does not use kW

14-02-2019 12:59am

Source "Hyundai" https://www.hyundai.co.uk/brochure-request

Even using 100 Km/h v 60 Mph isn't going to add up to 2 seconds in the difference.

bHxTJ7c.jpg?1

14-02-2019 1:06am

unkel wrote: »

I admit that I still do use BHP. I shouldn't. Very hard to switch though when almost everyone you talk to (outside of Germany) does not use kW

Hp v Kw won't change the facts , 0-100 of 10 seconds , 2.13 Mph in the difference between km/h and Mph doesn't add up to 2 seconds.

You might get 9.7 seconds instead.

unkel · 14-02-2019 1:08am

Deleted User wrote: »

Source "Hyundai"

Did you not read my post at all?

The manufacturers official figures are not reliable. They never were. We need an independent comparison site. Like www.zeroto60times.com, but obviously preferably something that compares 0-100km/h times as we use Système Internationale in this country.

Kramer · 14-02-2019 2:55am

unkel wrote: »

Christ lads, do I have to post the link again?

I'll call your link, & raise you 3 more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shvBmNzugkQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqzEcVikvRw
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/hyundai-ioniq-electric-acceleration-test-0-to-50-km-h-in-33-seconds-116794.html

:D:D

Also, I heard from a friend whose neighbour said he heard from someone in the pub who works for someone high up that they read on the interweb from Facebook that his Ioniq can go 0-60 in 6. something seconds & that he regularly gets over 300km range, at motorway speed (+ 10%), even in winter.

I'll have to update the Wiki on that now actually, now that it's confirmed 100% someone on t'internet said so.

denismc · 14-02-2019 3:35am

Oops, I could have sworn this thread was about the Renault Zoe!

My bad!

New Zoe, new wart?

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