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New Zoe, new wart?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭ Dexter1979


    reboot wrote: »

    Old news. The R240 engine is in full production and I'm unsure if it would be an issue with most people. You and I mostly use 22kW anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,446 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    "The casualty? 43 kilowatt on-board AC charging, which the newer, smaller unit does not support. It will however, still charge at up to 22 kilowatts, three-phase, where appropriate infrastructure exists. That also means that the Reanult ZOE can no-longer charge in half an hour, making it less suited to inter-city trips than cars fitted with the first-generation charging system."

    WHAT ? OMG !!!!!!!

    First time I read that the Renault removed the 43 Kw fast charging support !! OMG why renault, Zoe was actually your Best EV until now ??? What kind of muppets would make a decision like this for what ? maybe 8 miles at the very best efficiency gain ? foolish foolish decision. 140 miles is on the farcical Euro test cycle not possible in a normal environment.

    First they build a converted ICE car called the fluence then they murder any chance of sales by not including fast charging, have they not learned anything ?

    I certainly will NOT be recommending anyone buy a Renault Zoe from now on, this is just plane ridiculous !!!

    On my commute I need fast charging this is why even though the Zoe charger is great, it's of no benefit to me on my commute because even if 22 Kw charging was available on my commute it would take over nearly twice the amount of time to charge at this power compared to 38-48 Kw in the Leaf depending on the state of charge when I get to the charge point.

    Someone please tell me this isn;t actually correct ?

    If it is then I really hope renault dealers inform people that fast charging is half the power of the original Zoe taking nearly twice as long.

    I don;t know how I missed this, why spend all that money on a tiny efficiency gain instead of reducing the cost of the car in the first place ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭ reboot


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    "The casualty? 43 kilowatt on-board AC charging, which the newer, smaller unit does not support. It will however, still charge at up to 22 kilowatts, three-phase, where appropriate infrastructure exists. That also means that the Reanult ZOE can no-longer charge in half an hour, making it less suited to inter-city trips than cars fitted with the first-generation charging system."

    WHAT ? OMG !!!!!!!

    First time I read that the Renault removed the 43 Kw fast charging support !! OMG why renault, Zoe was actually your Best EV until now ??? What kind of muppets would make a decision like this for what ? maybe 8 miles at the very best efficiency gain ? foolish foolish decision. 140 miles is on the farcical Euro test cycle not possible in a normal environment.

    First they build a converted ICE car called the fluence then they murder any chance of sales by not including fast charging, have they not learned anything ?

    I certainly will NOT be recommending anyone buy a Renault Zoe from now on, this is just plane ridiculous !!!

    On my commute I need fast charging this is why even though the Zoe charger is great, it's of no benefit to me on my commute because even if 22 Kw charging was available on my commute it would take over nearly twice the amount of time to charge at this power compared to 38-48 Kw in the Leaf depending on the state of charge when I get to the charge point.

    Someone please tell me this isn;t actually correct ?

    If it is then I really hope renault dealers inform people that fast charging is half the power of the original Zoe taking nearly twice as long.

    I don;t know how I missed this, why spend all that money on a tiny efficiency gain instead of reducing the cost of the car in the first place ?
    I raised this with my friendly dealer who pointed out that the new Zoe Navy you can Purchase the rapid charge version.
    I then pointed out that when I asked about keeping my 2 year old model,with 43kw charger,they want a payment of a mere 11,700 pounds. But if I lease the new Nav they will put the 43kw back for an additional price.
    However when I calm down I realise that in the two year period I only availed of a rapid charger once because it was in front of me.Normally 22kw is more than enough,and as posted out of sight, 32A single would be more than enough for this Grannies situation, this week the charge indicator, with the outside temp at 20° is 118 miles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,446 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    reboot wrote: »
    I raised this with my friendly dealer who pointed out that the new Zoe Navy you can Purchase the rapid charge version.
    I then pointed out that when I asked about keeping my 2 year old model,with 43kw charger,they want a payment of a mere 11,700 pounds. But if I lease the new Nav they will put the 43kw back for an additional price.
    However when I calm down I realise that in the two year period I only availed of a rapid charger once because it was in front of me.Normally 22kw is more than enough,and as posted out of sight, 32A single would be more than enough for this Grannies situation, this week the charge indicator, with the outside temp at 20° is 118 miles.

    I didn't read anywhere where the 44 Kw AC charger was even an option on with the updated drive train ?

    That's really bad form from Renault to half fast charging and I wonder how many people might be aware of this or the impact it may have ? Are the dealers going to tell people it will nearly double the charging time ? silly decisions Renault make.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭ reboot


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    I didn't read anywhere where the 44 Kw AC charger was even an option on with the updated drive train ?

    That's really bad form from Renault to half fast charging and I wonder how many people might be aware of this or the impact it may have ? Are the dealers going to tell people it will nearly double the charging time ? silly decisions Renault make.

    Dexter above says its "Old News"


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  • Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭ Dexter1979


    It's my understanding that both engines are available. The more efficient engine is said to give more range. For most my driving 22kW charging is fine. I personally like the 43kW option but the increased efficiency at 3 kW could end up saving money home charging.

    I only use a 43kW charger going to Dublin. The rest are all 22kW. Don't think I'd miss it much. My trip to Holland would have taken longer but you can plan for that. If you do most your driving in a city or a commute to work only 22kW is all you need.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,446 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    But Dexter, you'd miss the extra 22 Kw on the longer trips . If the leaf only had 22 kw charging there'd not be much I could do about it but if given the choice there is no way I want to spend nearly twice as long on the charger so I would never opt for the lower powered charger.

    I think this was a really stupid decision from Renault but this isn't the first stupid decision they made have they not got it into their heads by now that 99% of the population want more range and "much" faster charging !!! this is the future not doubling the charge time, crazy fools !!!

    I will see if I can root around and find if the 44 kw charger really is an option but it's crazy to think it even could be an option, for all of what , maybe an extra 5 miles range improvement ?

    "the motor doesn't need water cooling" "more efficient" bla bla, the average motorist couldn't care less , they care about range and charge times and affordability, reliability, running costs, resale value and battery longevity and nothing else !!!

    Last night on the way home I saw 44.5 kw beng sent to the battery from a 22 % charge, I had driven it quiet hard up to work and back to Naas or I could have had about 30-35% but 10 mins was plenty to get home from Naas, all of 134 Kms, this was driving 100-120 with a bit of 130 Kph no ac or heat. why would Renault think I or anyone else want to spend twice the time twiddling their thumbs while the car charges ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭ Dexter1979


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    But Dexter, you'd miss the extra 22 Kw on the longer trips .... why would Renault think I or anyone else want to spend twice the time twiddling their thumbs while the car charges ?

    Longer journeys you will have to wait longer but I found that less of an issue than I expected. On my travels around Ireland I did one whole day without 43kW charging. In most EU countries, including Ireland, 43kW chargers are rare. 11 & 22kW less so. I don't think I would miss it much. Double the range and I would not miss it at all!

    Keep in mind that other countries people would use public transport instead of the car for long journeys.

    Even in your case just a bit of extra range or a charge point at work would be much more valuable than a faster charger in Naas. Charging little and often in as many places as possible is a better solution. Wireless chargers in every public car park is what I see as a potential future. Just park the car. No need to do anything else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,446 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    Dexter1979 wrote: »
    Longer journeys you will have to wait longer but I found that less of an issue than I expected. On my travels around Ireland I did one whole day without 43kW charging. In most EU countries, including Ireland, 43kW chargers are rare. 11 & 22kW less so. I don't think I would miss it much. Double the range and I would not miss it at all!

    That's fine for your needs and if you're prepared to live with it but I and most people are not. I do agree that 22 Kw AC has huge potential and I don't think we will see another EV with this kind of powerful AC charger apart from the Model S with dual 10Kw, but this is optional. And as batteries get larger they'll need to be charged faster and the more people that buy electrics and can;t charge at home it's better they can charge as fast as possible, no doubt this is what people want and this is where the industry is heading and this is why i said on the E-Cars FB page that they should concentrate on the DC network instead because the majority of electrics will have fast DC charge only.

    For me there are a few ac chargers on the way home in Saggart and in Naas but the Leaf gives me the fastest possible charge time which I need the Naas charger also has AC but I preferred the Leaf anyway.
    Dexter1979 wrote: »
    Keep in mind that other countries people would use public transport instead of the car for long journeys.

    Maybe but for the long trips they take the car they'll still want the fastest charge times and longer range.
    Dexter1979 wrote: »
    Even in your case just a bit of extra range or a charge point at work would be much more valuable than a faster charger in Naas. Charging little and often in as many places as possible is a better solution. Wireless chargers in every public car park is what I see as a potential future. Just park the car. No need to do anything else.

    A charge point at work would be great but they're telling me since December it's being installed so I got tired of asking and now couldn't care less, I haven't mentioned it in about 2 months !

    The 30 kwh 2016 leaf would most likely get me up and down on one charge but it would be too costly to change and cost more , I wouldn't add around 5k according to the dealer who wasn't aware of the 30 Kwh option but it's showing up on the U.S Dealer order form.

    BTW, was that you I saw on the old N9 yesterday evening around 8.50 PM ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭ Dexter1979


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    For me there are a few ac chargers on the way home in Saggart and in Naas but the Leaf gives me the fastest possible charge time which I need the Naas charger also has AC but I preferred the Leaf anyway.

    Fastest charge time, yes but with very limited availability.. this speed comes at a price.. Lots of slower chargers, and I mean thousands, would give you the ability to charge your car without having to wait for it to finish..

    Here is a good article about this.

    http://pod-point.com/do-electric-vehicles-take-a-long-time-to-charge-mostly-it-doesnt-matter-and-heres-why-rapid-charging-top-up-model-electric-vehicle-charging-time-how-long-does-it-take/

    Lots of slower chargers are also needed as well as coverage with fast chargers.. which is pretty good in most places.. If only they were reliable :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,446 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    Dexter1979 wrote: »
    Fastest charge time, yes but with very limited availability.. this speed comes at a price.. Lots of slower chargers, and I mean thousands, would give you the ability to charge your car without having to wait for it to finish..

    Here is a good article about this.

    http://pod-point.com/do-electric-vehicles-take-a-long-time-to-charge-mostly-it-doesnt-matter-and-heres-why-rapid-charging-top-up-model-electric-vehicle-charging-time-how-long-does-it-take/

    Lots of slower chargers are also needed as well as coverage with fast chargers.. which is pretty good in most places.. If only they were reliable :)

    As Ev range grows there'll be much less need for slow chargers and greater need for faster "fast" chargers. So much less will need to be installed in the first place and the existing slow chargers will eventually become redundant.

    I would not want to have to wait 1 hr for an 80% charge when I can get it in half the time. Who would ? Yes I can charge at home and with the updated Leaf I would most likely not need to charge to get home from work meaning I wouldn't need a slow or fast charger except for the long drives for which I want faster charging the majority of people do also.



    There will never be work place charging and there won't be need with the next gen electrics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭ reboot


    This discussion is exactly what I was alluding to when I suggested a Leaf/I3 etc desperate thread.
    I have to side with Dexter in this case, why wouldn't I, we have the same EV model.
    Its not correct to write that 99% of the population want faster charging and longer range,I for one am more than happy with 22kva charging which as you know,long debated in the other place(faceless book). This has been my experience for over two years now.
    The fact that a Leaf takes twice as long to charge on AC is just something you will have to live with, you knew this when you choose to go that route.
    Its not wise to ask for vastly more expensive CPs when some Politicians have gone into print asking for the entire project to be scrapped due to cost.
    Not sure I agree with Dexter on inductive charging,from what I see of the two phone charging,, Qi systems battling it out. More work on Super Capacitors would be welcome, and people changing there driving styles?


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,446 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    reboot wrote: »

    Its not correct to write that 99% of the population want faster charging and longer range,I for one am more than happy with 22kva charging which as you know,long debated in the other place(faceless book). This has been my experience for over two years now.

    Most people want more range and faster charging times this obvious from the tiny amount of EV sales. Nobody I have talked to that isn't an EV enthusiast thinks charging in 30 mins is terrific never mind 1 hour 80% to 1hr 30 mins 100% @22 Kw

    I guarantee if you had the option of longer range and faster charge times you would choose that over slower charge times and shorter range if not you're well and truly the minority !

    The fact 22 Kw charging has huge potential you can not deny that when on a long drive that 22 Kw charging is more useful than 50 Kw or 100 Kw ?
    reboot wrote: »
    The fact that a Leaf takes twice as long to charge on AC is just something you will have to live with, you knew this when you choose to go that route.
    Its not wise to ask for vastly more expensive CPs when some Politicians have gone into print asking for the entire project to be scrapped due to cost.
    Not sure I agree with Dexter on inductive charging,from what I see of the two phone charging,, Qi systems battling it out. More work on Super Capacitors would be welcome, and people changing there driving styles?

    The leaf takes more than twice the time to charge on AC than Zoe @ 6.6 Kw I've the 6.6 Kw charger in the Leaf and I don't use it much but it is handy on a public slow charger, The AC charger in the Zoe is of no benefit to me but it is brilliant and I've never denied this but I do not need it because the DC chargers are all I need. I don't do much long distance personal driving due to my work mileage being so much so to keep mileage down if we go for a long drive we take the old smoker and my partner wouldn't tolerate charging for up to 1 hour on a long trip and then worrying about having to find chargers and then waiting up to 1hr 30 mins to her is bonkers, she thinks I'm bonkers for having an EV anyway.

    The leaf even with my 3.3 Kw home charging is plenty for an over night charge. But the 6.6 is handy when out. But I rarely use the AC charger mainly DC. But it is convenient when I need it and worth the money.

    Tesla wouldn't be investing in 120 and soon 130 Kw charging if they thought 22 Kw or 44 Kw AC is what people want, Musk knows people want more range and faster recharge times.

    With the range of the Model S 85 Kwh I would imaging most AC charge points would never be used and the DC network would be used a lot less by individuals meaning you wouldn't need to go near a charge point for 2% of the time.

    I have not yet heard Irish politicians screaming for EV subsidies to be scrapped.

    My choice in buying the Leaf was mainly because I preferred it over the Zoe, and it's got more power which is important to me and the interior suited me better and the AC charger in Zoe was of no real benefit to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,446 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    BTW, I just checked the Irish and U.K Zoe specs and there is no mention of 22 Kw only or 44 Kw as an option ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭ reboot


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    Most people want more range and faster charging times this obvious from the tiny amount of EV sales. Nobody I have talked to that isn't an EV enthusiast thinks charging in 30 mins is terrific never mind 1 hour 80% to 1hr 30 mins 100% @22 Kw

    I guarantee if you had the option of longer range and faster charge times you would choose that over slower charge times and shorter range if not you're well and truly the minority !

    The fact 22 Kw charging has huge potential you can not deny that when on a long drive that 22 Kw charging is more useful than 50 Kw or 100 Kw ?



    The leaf takes more than twice the time to charge on AC than Zoe @ 6.6 Kw I've the 6.6 Kw charger in the Leaf and I don't use it much but it is handy on a public slow charger, The AC charger in the Zoe is of no benefit to me but it is brilliant and I've never denied this but I do not need it because the DC chargers are all I need. I don't do much long distance personal driving due to my work mileage being so much so to keep mileage down if we go for a long drive we take the old smoker and my partner wouldn't tolerate charging for up to 1 hour on a long trip and then worrying about having to find chargers and then waiting up to 1hr 30 mins to her is bonkers, she thinks I'm bonkers for having an EV anyway.

    The leaf even with my 3.3 Kw home charging is plenty for an over night charge. But the 6.6 is handy when out. But I rarely use the AC charger mainly DC. But it is convenient when I need it and worth the money.

    Tesla wouldn't be investing in 120 and soon 130 Kw charging if they thought 22 Kw or 44 Kw AC is what people want, Musk knows people want more range and faster recharge times.

    With the range of the Model S 85 Kwh I would imaging most AC charge points would never be used and the DC network would be used a lot less by individuals meaning you wouldn't need to go near a charge point for 2% of the time.

    I have not yet heard Irish politicians screaming for EV subsidies to be scrapped.

    My choice in buying the Leaf was mainly because I preferred it over the Zoe, and it's got more power which is important to me and the interior suited me better and the AC charger in Zoe was of no real benefit to me.

    Another Fact Free discussion from you. you can't guarantee anything about me. I may be in the minority, but to quote a famous Irishman "In a democracy , the minority are always right" I wouldn't go that far , but am happy to post details from the Irish news on the Irish Politician's call. We shall see if Musk knows what people want with his Power Wall, something I have been doing for decades.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,446 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    reboot wrote: »
    Another Fact Free discussion from you. you can't guarantee anything about me. I may be in the minority, but to quote a famous Irishman "In a democracy , the minority are always right" I wouldn't go that far , but am happy to post details from the Irish news on the Irish Politician's call. We shall see if Musk knows what people want with his Power Wall, something I have been doing for decades.

    " Another fact free discussion" what do you mean ?

    Please do post where politicians are calling for the end of EV subsidies because if it's true then all the charge points might as well be ripped up because there will be no hope hopes for electrics in Ireland and the ESB will be wasting their time installing charge points.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 995 737max


    New application for the R240 motor; the smart fortwo and forfour.

    http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/smart/fortwo/95917/smart-fortwo-and-smart-forfour-electric-drive-to-debut-at-paris

    it will be used in conjunction with Mercedes batteries.

    I'm not sure how it will fit in a fortwo as there isn't much space under the boot and seats for both battery and motor and not much space under the bonnet for battery either.

    I can't see it having much more than the current car's battery capacity.

    I'd really like to see an EV twingo but Renault probably don't want it as it will cannibalise Zoe sales.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,270 ✭✭✭ cros13


    Paris is turning into the big EV event of the year. One or more production destined models set to be shown by both VW and MB. In both cases these are the launch models for brand new production platforms designed as long range EVs.

    MB is hurting from Tesla eating into S and E class sales. There were three questions tabled by shareholders at this years Daimler AGM with even institutional investors asking when Daimler would be able to launch competing models.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 995 737max


    Maybe they can introduce Twingo EV and push the Zoe upmarket or abandon Zoe and go with EV version of Clio or Megane as other manufacturers are doing e.g. ioniq, e-golf, hybridized versions of other compact cars being visually identical to rest of range. It can't be cheap to produce the Zoe in such small quantities even if it is going down the same production line as the Clio.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,270 ✭✭✭ cros13


    737max wrote: »
    Maybe they can introduce Twingo EV and push the Zoe upmarket or abandon Zoe and go with EV version of Clio or Megane as other manufacturers are doing e.g. ioniq, e-golf, hybridized versions of other compact cars being visually identical to rest of range. It can't be cheap to produce the Zoe in such small quantities even if it is going down the same production line as the Clio.

    In fairness the ZOE was the best selling EV in europe last year so I don't see Renault-Nissan changing tack soon beyond the new Leaf and EV Note.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 995 737max


    At 50k units in total and only 18k in 2015 they aren't making money on the Zoe which is being discounted heavily in lease deals to get it out the door.

    If they have EV versions of the Twingo and Clio they will at least loose less money per unit as the engineering costs are lower.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/30/european-alt-fuel-vehicle-website-shows-falling-plug-in-sales/


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭ reboot


    cros13 wrote: »
    Paris is turning into the big EV event of the year. One or more production destined models set to be shown by both VW and MB. In both cases these are the launch models for brand new production platforms designed as long range EVs.

    MB is hurting from Tesla eating into S and E class sales. There were three questions tabled by shareholders at this years Daimler AGM with even institutional investors asking when Daimler would be able to launch competing models.

    Top Gear testing the Tesla X, this week.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭ reboot


    Hi Dexter, New new Zoe, newer warts?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭ ei9go


    If you look at the Zoe configuration on Renault UK, you will see the choice of two engines, one with 22KW charging and the other with 43KW charging.

    Big difference in price though


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,446 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    Renault are idiots for even thinking about removing 44 Kw AC, they'd be better off having a choice of fast AC or DC.

    All for a tiny insignificant efficiency gain. They'd be better off having a more powerful motor option instead of offering a ridiculous 75 HP version.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,270 ✭✭✭ cros13


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    All for a tiny insignificant efficiency gain.

    Not exactly.

    Q210 motor (43kW) - Manufacturer: Continental
    R240 (R75/90) motor (22kW) - Manufacturer: Renault

    All about control....


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,446 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    cros13 wrote: »
    Not exactly.

    Q210 motor (43kW) - Manufacturer: Continental
    R240 (R75/90) motor (22kW) - Manufacturer: Renault

    All about control....

    Interesting, but even so, why can't they make their own higher powered motors ?

    They're even offering 75 HP in their Master EV which is a half assed attempt at an Electric van I'd certainly not want to be the poor SOB driving it. I'd probably look for another job !


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,902 ✭✭✭ ewj1978


    Called into Renault in Cork today, looking for info on the new Zoe.
    They had nothing, nada, bupkis apart from the fact that it would probably be July! before they had any in stock.
    Was told that what I'm seeing online was all the info they had too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭ paulers06


    ewj1978 wrote: »
    Called into Renault in Cork today, looking for info on the new Zoe.
    They had nothing, nada, bupkis apart from the fact that it would probably be July! before they had any in stock.
    Was told that what I'm seeing online was all the info they had too.

    Called into Renault Limerick. Was told that they don't know if there will be a new zoe this year.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,617 ✭✭✭ grogi


    ewj1978 wrote: »
    Called into Renault in Cork today, looking for info on the new Zoe.
    They had nothing, nada, bupkis apart from the fact that it would probably be July! before they had any in stock.
    Was told that what I'm seeing online was all the info they had too.

    Forget about Keary's Renault... They are absolutely useless when comes to EV.


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