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New Zoe, new wart?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭ reboot


    Sorry if already discussed, the nice people at Renault/ Nissan alliance would like to sell me a power wall from Zoe batteries, I'm pretty sure I've paid for two batteries already, and they want me to buy them again?




  • The 30 Kwh leaf is quiet behind really, it charges about 45 Kw to 80% and Ioniq 65 Kw to 80% than around 40-45 Kw until 90% this is a big difference and huge compared to the 24 Kwh leaf.

    At the most Leaf II will probably charge at 65 Kw which is the limit for ChaDeMo if I remember correctly then can the triple headed units charge at 65 Kw on ChaDeMo ? I have my doubts but then again no one know the same chargers could dish out 65 Kw on CCS.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,677 ✭✭✭✭ listermint


    reboot wrote: »
    Sorry if already discussed, the nice people at Renault/ Nissan alliance would like to sell me a power wall from Zoe batteries, I'm pretty sure I've paid for two batteries already, and they want me to buy them again?

    What price for the power wall and the capacity?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭ reboot


    Listermint,sorry,have to get back to you on details.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭ reboot


    listermint wrote: »
    reboot wrote: »
    Sorry if already discussed, the nice people at Renault/ Nissan alliance would like to sell me a power wall from Zoe batteries, I'm pretty sure I've paid for two batteries already, and they want me to buy them again?

    What price for the power wall and the capacity?
    Renault, in partnership with Power vault, are currently, sorry, running trials with 50 M&S customers in the SE of England. No prices or stats yet, and the Renault/Nissan alliance involved in a 100 MW battery storage scheme, as previously pointed out, Kilroot power station, in Large has biggest battery storage system in Europe soon.
    By


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 17,640 CMod ✭✭✭✭ The Black Oil


    Good 24 hour real world test here. Dealership side let things down at the start.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,003 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    That episode - I watched it all - really highlights the crappy sales network EV are given.
    He should have been told it was fast AC type2, and explained it was different than type 1.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭ reboot


    ei9go wrote: »
    Offered to buy a Used Zoe last week from a dealer in NI if I could buy out the battery lease.

    He rang Renault UK who said it was not possible to buy out a battery lease.

    I think it's bizarre. Do they not want to sell cars.
    Renault dealer told me he was not permitted to put an "Electric "sticker, on the Zoe, Renault may want to sell cars, but not EV over a more expensive Ice?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 17,640 CMod ✭✭✭✭ The Black Oil


    Dealership more on the ball this time.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭ LordSutch


    ^Excellent Zoe review above^

    Really comprehensive, would make me want to go out and buy one tomorrow (if I didn't need a bigger car) which I do, for family commitments.

    Zoe + 40kw battery = highly recommended.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,509 ✭✭✭ Soarer


    Right lads.

    What's the story with these little yokes?
    I think I read there's a ferocious difference in range between winter and summer?
    No DC charging?
    What speed does it charge on AC?
    Does it have a "cold pack" or can it be preheated while home charging?

    Definitely gonna change my Leaf in the next few weeks/months, and looking at all options.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,003 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    Soarer wrote: »
    Right lads.

    What's the story with these little yokes?
    I think I read there's a ferocious difference in range between winter and summer?
    No DC charging?
    What speed does it charge on AC?
    Does it have a "cold pack" or can it be preheated while home charging?

    Definitely gonna change my Leaf in the next few weeks/months, and looking at all options.

    No DC charging.
    If you get the Q90 model it charges at approx 30-35kW AC from a fastAC43 connection, meaning 0-80% takes 1 hour5mins. If you get a R90 it will take 1hour40minutes to 80%.

    There's a good app for preheating etc. Not sure there's a cold pack like the leaf. There's a guy on youtube "jan bart spang" who has a series of videos (ireland based) on the Zoe which I find explains a lot especially the earlier videos.

    I was told by Renault that I could have an Q90 for approx 410 per month with a 3k deposit.
    I'm just not sure that in 2-3-5 years that there will be the same number of fast AC chargers. AC is not scalable. DC is the future for charging, and I would be very very wary of commiting 30k of money to an already antiquated tech. The new Zoe will come with the R90 motor (22kW AC) but also is going to have CCS DC compatibility


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭ LordSutch


    ELM327 wrote: »
    The new Zoe will come with the R90 motor (22kW AC) but also is going to have CCS DC compatibility

    As a novice to EVs can somebody please explain the battery power to me.

    I thought the Zoe came with a 40kwh battery!


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,003 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    LordSutch wrote: »
    As a novice to EVs can somebody please explain the battery power to me.

    I thought the Zoe came with a 40kwh battery!

    It's a 41kWh battery - which is a measure of the stored energy in the battery.
    The 22kW is the power that the charger in the car can send to the battery.
    A Zoe can be purchased with either a Q90 or R90 motor. The Q90 comes with a charger that can deliver 43kW to the battery, whereas the R90 can only deliver 22kW to the battery. These kW figures refer to charging speed - ie the speed you can recharge the battery. kWh is the amount of "power" stored in the battery, and the two are linked. EG If you charge at 22kW for 1 hour you will receive 22kWh


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭ LordSutch


    Many thanks for that very detailed/technical post ^

    I only asked because there was talk of two battery options, option one being the 22kwh battery powered version, and option two being the 40kw long range one. I guess were all talking about (option two) the bigger battery output these days, are we?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,509 ✭✭✭ Soarer


    Great stuff ELM.

    I'd not be buying new. Probably bring one in from the UK. Need to keep an eye out for the Q90 motor.

    And what's the story with home charging? I've a 32A charger at the minute for the Leaf even though it's only using 16A. If I were to swap that for a Zoe charger, what would it pull at?

    Also, the Leaf feels/seems fairly quick. Is the Zoe something similar?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭ LordSutch


    OK, so its the Q90 option/motor that's the one to go for.

    Got it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,509 ✭✭✭ Soarer


    Just looking on the renault.co.uk website, and it gives the R90 motor an NEDC range of 250 miles with the Q90 having a range of 230 miles.
    Any idea why the difference?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,612 ✭✭✭ grogi


    Soarer wrote: »
    And what's the story with home charging? I've a 32A charger at the minute for the Leaf even though it's only using 16A. If I were to swap that for a Zoe charger, what would it pull at?

    The 22kW is three phase charging, each 7.3kW. Your home charger is 32A, 230V -> 7.3kW. Zoe cannot drag more from one phase supply than that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,612 ✭✭✭ grogi


    Soarer wrote: »
    Just looking on the renault.co.uk website, and it gives the R90 motor an NEDC range of 250 miles with the Q90 having a range of 230 miles.
    Any idea why the difference?

    They are optimised for different speeds.

    Nice read here: https://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2017/03/renault-zoe-r90-ze-40-review/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,003 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    Soarer wrote: »
    Great stuff ELM.

    I'd not be buying new. Probably bring one in from the UK. Need to keep an eye out for the Q90 motor.

    And what's the story with home charging? I've a 32A charger at the minute for the Leaf even though it's only using 16A. If I were to swap that for a Zoe charger, what would it pull at?

    Also, the Leaf feels/seems fairly quick. Is the Zoe something similar?

    If you have an untethered unit, which from memory you do, you can plug the Zoe in and it will pull the maximum available power. So you will be limited by the home charger to 32a single phase or approx 7kW.

    The Zoe is - from youtubers only - not as nippy as the leaf and is limited to 84mph top speed.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 60,501 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Soarer wrote: »
    I think I read there's a ferocious difference in range between winter and summer?

    According to Renault themselves, range of the Zoe 41kWh is about 300km in summer and 200km in winter. It's easy enough to find this on any Renault website, like Renault.ie

    11PM: 15kW o'clock!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭ reboot


    Zoe manages fine in my 5 years of driving them, much faster charge at 22 kva CPs than Leaf, sorry.
    Heating from the heat pump in winter, pretty useless, with battery dropping by around 20%, and major charging faults around earthing at CPs. I won't change, nor will the car.




  • unkel wrote: »
    According to Renault themselves, range of the Zoe 41kWh is about 300km in summer and 200km in winter. It's easy enough to find this on any Renault website, like Renault.ie

    200 Kms in winter in a cold country maybe, wet roads and wind have a far greater impact in an Irish climate.

    I don't notice much of a range difference in winter in the 24 kWh leaf it certainly doesn't loose half the range not even remotely close.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,003 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    200 Kms in winter in a cold country maybe, wet roads and wind have a far greater impact in an Irish climate.

    I don't notice much of a range difference in winter in the 24 kWh leaf it certainly doesn't loose half the range not even remotely close.
    I'd say I lost 10-15% range in the winter compared to the summer.
    I was leaving the house with 4 bars of temp compared to 5 (or even 6) in the summer so that's probably why. Preheating and the cold pack really saved some range though so I imagine up to 25% loss is possible. Certainly not 50% though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭ Mancomb Seepgood


    Is the ZE40 model available with the Q90 motor in Ireland yet?I'd give serious thought to getting a Zoe 40 as a replacement for my 24kw Leaf - could probably live with the slower charging given I'd be starting out with more range!Would definitely wait for a second hand model, though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,003 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    Is the ZE40 model available with the Q90 motor in Ireland yet?I'd give serious thought to getting a Zoe 40 as a replacement for my 24kw Leaf - could probably live with the slower charging given I'd be starting out with more range!Would definitely wait for a second hand model, though.
    It is, it's on the renault website, I have only seen one demo somewhere in Kerry equipped with the q90 though. Most are the r90 which are much less desirable. Still way better than a 24kWh leaf though (as a fellow 24kWh leaf owner :cool:)


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 60,501 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    There was a Zoe charging at 43kW off the triple head efacec (fast AC) while I was charging at 49kW off the same triple head (CCS). It was the old model (iirc a 151 reg), so which exactly can do that? All of the first gen Zoe?

    Very handy in Ireland where more and more there will be queues at the FCP with only one car being able to fast charge at the same time (plus Zoe with no queue on the AC)

    How common are those charging problems / bad grounds on the Zoe?

    11PM: 15kW o'clock!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭ reboot


    unkel wrote: »
    There was a Zoe charging at 43kW off the triple head efacec (fast AC) while I was charging at 49kW off the same triple head (CCS). It was the old model (iirc a 151 reg), so which exactly can do that? All of the first gen Zoe?

    Very handy in Ireland where more and more there will be queues at the FCP with only one car being able to fast charge at the same time (plus Zoe with no queue on the AC)

    How common are those charging problems / bad grounds on the Zoe?
    My original Zoe, one of the very first 2013, took a fast charge. The replacement did not, unless you paid a lot more, so they took the fast away and would only give it back if you paid more for what you already had.
    The second car had a Renault motor, which originally wasn't as fussy about Earth's as the first, but now has been throwing hissy fits, apparently doesn't like anything over 140 ohms, Leaf never had this problem, for reasons previously discussed, both cars from the Renault/ Nissan alliance. Some alliance.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,003 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    unkel wrote: »
    There was a Zoe charging at 43kW off the triple head efacec (fast AC) while I was charging at 49kW off the same triple head (CCS). It was the old model (iirc a 151 reg), so which exactly can do that? All of the first gen Zoe?

    Very handy in Ireland where more and more there will be queues at the FCP with only one car being able to fast charge at the same time (plus Zoe with no queue on the AC)

    How common are those charging problems / bad grounds on the Zoe?

    All of the early 2015 and before Zoe came with AC43. then they brought in the R240 motor and 22kW became the standard with 43kW (Q240) as a paid option. It's the same now, and in the ZE40 it's the same except it's called R90 for the 22kW and Q90 for the 43kW. Apparently the Q90 suffers a lot more agressive tapering than the Q240, meaning it charges at less than 43kW for most of the curve.


    Although the Ioniq can charge much faster, i have to say the idea of a pretty much reserved FCP + ability to get medium speed 22kW from any AC SCP, puts me firmly looking at a Q90 for my next EV.


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