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Fox hunting

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    #482
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,902 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    gozunda wrote: »
    Because its clear those comments had nothing to do with actual hunting. If you wish to start another thread rather than derail this one then fine.

    Its not your place to cross out out peoples opinions.

    Who do you think you are.

    Brazen cheek.


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    #483
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,902 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    gozunda wrote: »
    Nope. Just a load of hot air and hyperbole apparently. I reckon you havn't read any of the genuine posts in the thread obviously. But hey there you go ...

    The genuine posts must be the ones you havent drawn a line through, because you have the say on censorship here.


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    #484
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Doctors room ghost wrote: »
    If it's happening as we speak I must have been daydreaming on St. Stephen's Day when one of the biggest hunt fields passed through my village with several foot and car followers many of which had English registrations.our local hunt are out 3 days a week in season and are positively thriving

    Same here. Great community support to a local hunt. Both old people and young out to watch hounds.


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    #485
    Doctors room ghost
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭Doctors room ghost


    Do you eat meat anewme


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    #486
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Cherry Blossom wrote: »
    I'm not sure what your point is. I don't know anything about this particular organisation but I'm sure you are aware that not all animal charities are equal. If the hunt was trespassing its obvious who was at fault but your link states the cats were free to roam in nearby woodland ie not the property of the scantuary. Personally I would not support an organisation that allowed their wards to roam it is irresponsible and not keeping within the welfare needs of the animals in its care. I've never heard of any rescues in this country that do not contain their cats on their own property.

    Certainly a strange story with eldely animals allowed to roam freely in a woodland. Had an orange tabby here taken by a dog fox several years ago. This was in a yard. I can't imagine leaving old or vulnerable pets to wander about in a wood tbh.


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    #487
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    gozunda wrote: »
    WinnyThePoo wrote: »
    Fear is a interesting word. Do you fear it being taken away from you. It's happening as we speak by the way. There is not one coherent argument for it to be allowed ie. This thread.

    Nope. Just a load of hot air and hyperbole apparently. I reckon you havn't read any of the genuine posts in the thread obviously. But hey there you go ...

    I've read your posts. Are they not genuine?.

    Not one coherent line of thinking behind fox hunting as been shown. Not by you or anyone else.


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    #488
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    gozunda wrote: »
    Is it really? So when a landowner wants a specific fox removed - you say they are wrong?
    Hounds kill the exact same way as foxes do - quickly and efficiently. You got problem with that? And problem is shooting does not always hit the mark. Like hares and rabbits fox might only get torn up after death. Nice? No. But no different from wildlife smashed up by people. How many times do you need this explained?

    First of all get off your high horse (pun intended) before you fall. Blustering and pontificating won’t make you anymore correct in your point of view.

    Secondly how many times does it need to be said that there is a world of difference between a wild animal acting on instinct and doing what is necessary for it to survive and a pack of hounds hunting and killing on the orders of people for their own personal enjoyment.

    Look if you want to spend your Sunday afternoons terrorizing defenseless creatures and allowing them to be torn apart for your own sick pleasure go ahead but can you at least be man enough to acknowledge the Hunt for what it is?


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    #489
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,902 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    gozunda wrote: »
    Certainly a strange story with eldely animals allowed to roam freely in a woodland. Had an orange tabby here taken by a dog fox several years ago. This was in a yard. I can't imagine leaving old or vulnerable pets to wander about in a wood tbh.

    Victim blaming?

    If you read the reports, the hunt dogs went directly into the sanctuary’s land. But instead of actually acknowledging this, you blame the Sanctuary owners. Pets should be safe on their own land.

    Lot of excuses for poor control and behavior resulting in deaths of people’s pets from The Hunting Supporters.


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    #490
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    anewme wrote: »
    Victim blaming?

    If you read the reports, the hunt dogs went directly into the sanctuary’s land. But instead of actually acknowledging this, you blame the Sanctuary owners. Pets should be safe on their own land.

    Lot of excuses for poor control and behavior resulting in deaths of people’s pets from The Hunting Supporters.

    Agreed - I’ll accept this may have only been a drag hunt but if the hounds can’t be kept under control then it should banned along with the real hunt.


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    #491
    Doctors room ghost
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭Doctors room ghost


    anewme wrote: »
    Victim blaming?

    If you read the reports, the hunt dogs went directly into the sanctuary’s land. But instead of actually acknowledging this, you blame the Sanctuary owners. Pets should be safe on their own land.

    Lot of excuses for poor control and behavior resulting in deaths of people’s pets from The Hunting Supporters.



    In fairness anewme cats which were mentioned in the article have no concept of what is their land and constantly roam about the place.


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    #492
    Doctors room ghost
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭Doctors room ghost


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Agreed - I’ll accept this may have only been a drag hunt but if the hounds can’t be kept under control then it should banned along with the real hunt.

    And if fox hunting was banned what do you propose is done with a few thousand hounds nationwide


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    #493
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,902 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Doctors room ghost wrote: »
    In fairness anewme cats which were mentioned in the article have no concept of what is their land and constantly roam about the place.

    The point is, they were roaming about their own place when the hounds (who have no concept of land ownership either btw) trespassed.

    The responsibility for hounds trespassing is down to those responsible for the Hunt,

    The Hunt acknowledged they were in the wrong so not quite sure why hunt supporters find this difficult to understand.

    If my cat is in my garden and your dog attacks it in my garden, that’s your fault, not mine.


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    #494
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Doctors room ghost wrote: »
    And if fox hunting was banned what do you propose is done with a few thousand hounds nationwide

    I’m sure there are shelters that could take them in. Or the hunters could continue to keep them and look after them.


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    #495
    Doctors room ghost
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭Doctors room ghost


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I’m sure there are shelters that could take them in. Or the hunters could continue to keep them and look after them.


    No rescues will take in hounds and no hunters will keep a load of hounds if they weren't allowed to hunt. The foxhound breed has been finely tuned over generations through selective breeding with the sole purpose of hunting a fox and running with a horse


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    #496
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Doctors room ghost wrote: »
    The antis for fox hunting always reach for the old gem that shooting a fox is the best solution with a problem predator.
    The trouble here is the only experience most antis have of shooting is watching James Bond with his one shot one kill television bullsh1t.
    I've seen people fire guns and they wouldn't hit a hayshed if they were standing inside it.give them boys a live target and 9 times out of 10 they will maim the animal with a gut shot and it could be days suffering.or worse they will shoot it with a shotgun out of range and just dust it with pellets.
    How many of the same antis eat meat I wonder without ever having been in a factory and seeing the animals being dispatched and butchered?
    It goes back to the James Bond theory again here that they were shot and never felt a thing.its all boll1x.of course they feel something.they are shot or stunned with a captive bolt gun and yes they kick and move about after while being chained and hung up before being bled.but someone else does the dirty work here for the antis and they can feel good buying a steak in a nice little package because the magic bullet did the trick in their own mind.

    In that case we had better ban shooting too.


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    #497
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Doctors room ghost wrote: »
    Do you eat meat anewme

    You Pros, we might as well give you a name too, always reel out this old chestnut.


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    #498
    Doctors room ghost
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭Doctors room ghost


    Discodog wrote: »
    You Pros, we might as well give you a name too, always reel out this old chestnut.

    It was a genuine question which went unanswered.my own belief is that if a person eats meat they should be fully aware of the process involved in putting that meat on a plate and accept all that goes with the process in order to produce meat.
    How many of the same people who eat meat would be able and willing to kill and butcher an animal if they had to without having someone else do it for them and produce it in a nice little packet.hypocrisy and a blind belief in the magic bullet goes a long way in providing comfort to the selective blind if you ask me.


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    #499
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Cherry Blossom wrote: »
    I'm not sure what your point is. I don't know anything about this particular organisation but I'm sure you are aware that not all animal charities are equal. If the hunt was trespassing its obvious who was at fault but your link states the cats were free to roam in nearby woodland ie not the property of the scantuary. Personally I would not support an organisation that allowed their wards to roam it is irresponsible and not keeping within the welfare needs of the animals in its care. I've never heard of any rescues in this country that do not contain their cats on their own property.

    A quick Google will show you that they are a highly respected charity & very experienced. It has over one hundred acres of land & has a lot of long term residents that aren't suitable for rehoming.

    The hunt admit that they trespassed & the charity have stated that that haven't pursued the matter yet as they are assessing the damage.

    It's clear to me that the Charity did nothing wrong.


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    #500
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Doctors room ghost wrote: »
    It was a genuine question which went unanswered.my own belief is that if a person eats meat they should be fully aware of the process involved in putting that meat on a plate and accept all that goes with the process in order to produce meat.
    How many of the same people who eat meat would be able and willing to kill and butcher an animal if they had to without having someone else do it for them and produce it in a nice little packet.hypocrisy and a blind belief in the magic bullet goes a long way in providing comfort to the selective blind if you ask me.

    It's probably unanswered as it has nothing to do with a mob chasing a fox until it is exhausted purely for fun.


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    #501
    Doctors room ghost
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭Doctors room ghost


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I’m sure there are shelters that could take them in. Or the hunters could continue to keep them and look after them.


    Try and find a shelter who would be willing to take in a couple of thousand foxhounds if this situation arose.there are none.foxhounds aren't kept as pets and are therefore not suitable for rehoming.these same shelters are already running on a shoestring budget and are currently exporting greyhounds to the uk and Italy for rehoming as there is no demand for them here.


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    #502
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Doctors room ghost wrote: »
    And if fox hunting was banned what do you propose is done with a few thousand hounds nationwide

    Another old chestnut. It's simple. If you own a dog you are responsible for it's welfare throughout the whole of it's life. The law now dictates that you must provide for the needs of each dog.

    If you choose to own a pack of dogs then you are still responsible for their welfare. You can't just kill them like the fox.

    The same rules apply to your horse as well.


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    #503
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,902 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Doctors room ghost wrote: »
    It was a genuine question which went unanswered.my own belief is that if a person eats meat they should be fully aware of the process involved in putting that meat on a plate and accept all that goes with the process in order to produce meat.
    How many of the same people who eat meat would be able and willing to kill and butcher an animal if they had to without having someone else do it for them and produce it in a nice little packet.hypocrisy and a blind belief in the magic bullet goes a long way in providing comfort to the selective blind if you ask me.

    I didn’t think the question warranted an answer but no, I don’t eat meat. I eat eggs (only from my friend who rescued hens from a battery farm and gave them a bit of a life ) and I’m happy with that.

    Ohh and I use almond or oat mik.


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    #504
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,902 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Discodog wrote: »
    It's probably unanswered as it has nothing to do with a mob chasing a fox until it is exhausted purely for fun.

    Exactly this.

    The answer is no though, I don’t eat meat, but I see that as my own beliefs and nothing to do with Fox or any hunting.


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    #505
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭mulbot


    gozunda wrote: »
    Yes that's where your argument fails. Wildlife gets killed indiscriminately by people all the time. And no one gives a sh1te. But hey bring in hounds to disperse wildlife or to take out a problematic predator as requested by sa landowner and all hell breaks loose. Why is that? You do know that a lot of hunting is done on foot with hounds - So I gather your ok with that then?
    And the deliberate targeting by shooters etc is also ok as well? It's just the horses you have a problem with - yeah? What is it you hate about horses?

    My argument doesn't fail, yes animals get killed on roads etc. However, the difference is that this is not done deliberately for fun. It's very simple,and I detest anything to do with anyone using hounds etc to target an animal. Its barbaric and completely inhumane.


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    #506
    Unearthly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,984 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    Suddenly being a vegetarian or vegan gives you plus points.

    That's how I know these pro animal cruelty hunters are losing the argument because I've been in regular 'debates' with these pro hunters over not eating meat and can tell you they do not respect that choice at all

    Just trying to nitpick at people to help hide their shameful pastime


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    #507
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    Doctors room ghost wrote: »
    They're best admired down through the scope of a rifle with a lamp on them if they are causing you bother with your livestock or fowl.
    Hunting on horseback in Ireland goes back generations.it is a tradition and they used to provide valuable service to farmers by collecting fallen stock and disposing them by feeding to hounds.this has since been stopped by the geniuses running the country and farmers now have to pay to dispose of fallen stock.
    The hunt also used to provide protection to sheep and poultry farmers incomes by keeping check on predators.
    You could also argue that they provide employment to vets and farriers who care for the horses and kennel staff.
    They also keep the foxhound breed alive as a species which would otherwise have no place in society.
    The hunt catch very few foxes and in fact aim to chase the fox and therefore hunt them over walls etc as opposed to just going out on a mass fox murder.if they caught and killed every fox the field would complain about the lack of hunting.
    Another interesting point is that the majority of foxes killed are either old or injured and by removing these the overall health of the fox population is improved.
    As for the argument that the hunt is blasting through land and upsetting farmers this is not true.prior permission to hunt the land is sought from the landowners prior to the season starting and a team go through the land following the hunt to repair any damage done by horses or hounds

    I'm not trying to argue against hunting foxes. I know farmers who do it for the reasons you've outlined.

    My only gripe is with the tossers who play dress up and block the road and that is dangerous. A lot of this nonsense goes on where I live so I've experienced it first hand. It also usually comprises of your stereotypical loudmouth GAA, parking their 191 car at the front door of mass types.

    I've asked already what gives these people any right to stop traffic on a public road and I've been given an answer yet.

    And I know of at least one case where they did go into a farmers land without their permission and caused wreck. Knocked fences and left gates open.


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    #508
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    First of all get off your high horse (pun intended) before you fall. Blustering and pontificating won’t make you anymore correct in your point of view.
    Secondly how many times does it need to be said that there is a world of difference between a wild animal acting on instinct and doing what is necessary for it to survive and a pack of hounds hunting and killing on the orders of people for their own personal enjoyment.
    Look if you want to spend your Sunday afternoons terrorizing defenseless creatures and allowing them to be torn apart for your own sick pleasure go ahead but can you at least be man enough to acknowledge the Hunt for what it is?


    Well your pun could only only be correct where there is a horse (and a 'high' one at that lol) of course. Many hunts operate on foot. This however never seems to prevent the use of such stupid hyperbole about horses by some. But there you go. Much of those who criticise get it wrong due to daft assumptions of what they 'think' happens.

    Unfortunately as to your comment there is nothing there but incorrect opinion on the mattter. As clearly stated when hounds do occasionally kill - they do so in the exact same way foxes do - quickly and efficiently. I agree that it is instinctive and it is this infact which makes hunting with hounds so effective. Again you're sole presumption of 'personal enjoyment (sic) is incorrect as hounds are there to do a job - whether that is disperse foxes or occasionally remove a problematical one. Do the hounds enjoy doing what is instinctive? Yes they do. The huntsman job is to ensure that hounds work well. The only thing which gets 'torn apart' is the truth massacred by those who fail to understand this. And yes foxes will also tear up a carcass after death. Ditto hounds. Is it pretty? No. Does it effect your urban sensibilities? It would appear so.

    As for 'spending "Sunday (insert hyperbole here) etc Again the evident lack of comprehension and some daft assumptions. Sunday's? Lol. "sick pleasure"? Do you have such "sick pleasure" when killing rats for example? Is that a rat by your reckoning 'a defenceless creature'(sic)?. Even if you don't kill rats yourself - others do so on your behalf. And that makes much of what you say all the more hypocritical.


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    #509
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Ruraldweller56 wrote: »
    I'm not trying to argue against hunting foxes. I know farmers who do it for the reasons you've outlined. My only gripe is with the tossers who play dress up and block the road and that is dangerous. A lot of this nonsense goes on where I live so I've experienced it first hand. It also usually comprises of your stereotypical loudmouth GAA, parking their 191 car at the front door of mass types.
    I've asked already what gives these people any right to stop traffic on a public road and I've been given an answer yet. And I know of at least one case where they did go into a farmers land without their permission and caused wreck. Knocked fences and left gates open.

    Yes as a farmer landowners sometimes do need to either disperse or deal with a fox and Imo hounds are often the best way to do so. As for 'dress up' those who follow the hounds tend to wear what is suitable. Ie either a wool jacket or on horseback then riding breeches and a safety hat. Much the same for as footballers etc wear shorts etc. As far as I'm aware there is sometimes some tradition about a different colour for those in charge of hounds.

    Around here whenever there is any group whether road boles a match or hunt then yes cars can be a nuisance. Are their idiots out there? Yes there are but in my own experience most people in the countryside are courteous and will move etc if it is said to them. Though I wouldn't be afraid to report something if I thought there was a genuine problem. Here the hunts secure permission for access first. I believe you that on occasion this may not be so - but the landowner has an absolute right to seek redress etc. Most of those I know would not hesitate to apologise but then again there maybe the occasional one that doesn't. In which I would complain directly to those responsible.


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    #510
    brianmax88
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭brianmax88


    Marengo wrote: »
    When an animal kills another naturally, that's nature.

    When overweight middle aged 'gentlemen' organise the killing of defenceless animals as sport, that's barbaric.

    Plenty of other sports to engage in. That might mean they'd have to do a bit of running themselves rather than the horse.

    Humans organise the route and look after rhe hounds and follow them to proyect livestock. It is the hounds which are animals that do the hunting which is their nature. As for horses they are built to run. What would you do with them? Leave them in afield grazing their whole life? They wouldnt live long because they would be die from obesity if they weren't exercised.


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    #511
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Discodog wrote: »
    I have already said that I support a gradual faze out. I am sure that most horses are well looked after but there are serious bad issues with racing mainly caused by betting.

    I have no problem with equestrian sports like show jumping.

    Your comment about Greyhounds is ridiculous. They existed long before racing. In the 1930s they were considered a fashion accessory by wealthy women.
    You will have to explain to us the "serious bad issue with racing mainly caused by betting".
    How many horses race, how many races are run (totals), and how many bad issues with betting (numbers)?

    I am surprised you have no issues with show jumping. Jumping is not a natural trait of horses.
    The great Italian horse breeder Federico Tesio visited a friend's farm, a friend who trained steeplechasers. Tesio noticed at meal time that the horses congregated at a gate waiting to be let out so they could go and eat. The field was fenced at a height of a few feet. None of the horses jumped the fence, although they had jumped much bigger obstacles in races. He concluded that jumping was not a natural activity for a horse.

    They will not jump unless taught to jump, and then will not jump unless they have to jump. You might say that if a rider falls off a horse in a race the horse will jump fences afterwards. That is because it is a herd animal and wants to stay with the herd, the other horses in the race.

    Change your mind about show jumping. "Equestrian sport" sound nice, but it is not a natural activity.

    You want greyhound racing phased out. That equates to wanting racing greyhounds eliminated. Think your ideas through to a conclusion.


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