So who's going to see the Pope?

Sycamore Tree · 28-08-2018 7:02pm

billyhead wrote: »

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So you saw him once, can't have been a great experience if you didn't want to see him a second time especially when he was so close to home......

It was a great experience for me to see him in Rome. He went around in the pope mobile and you could get up close to view him. I felt there was no need to go to this one personally as the weather was muck and everything was viewable live on tv.

Do you mind me asking why you want to SEE him so much? Is it in the celebrity sense or do you actually see him as more than a famous man from Argentina? Like do you think he is God's rep on Earth with a direct line to heaven? Will seeing him give you something e.g. indulgence?

Try_harder · 28-08-2018 7:04pm

I got a mug!

Fighting Tao · 28-08-2018 7:05pm

yrreg0850 wrote: »

The visit to the Arus was On Saturday was a visit of one head of state (The Vatican) to another (Michael D).
On this occasion did Ms Zapone as the official Government representitive, breach protocol?
Ms Zapone badgerd the Pope who was there as a head of a state and, not head of a church.
She asked him to contribute towards the cost of the Tuam babies scandal .
The Irish state was as much to blame for this scandal . Those running the home were agents of the state and, the state should have been aware of the practices.

I couldn’t give a fiddlers (no pun intended) if she broke protocol or not in this case. I’m sure t was a once off and most of the country would agree that niceties shouldn’t apply to the leader of the biggest paedophile ring in the world.

yrreg0850 · 28-08-2018 7:07pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I couldn’t give a fiddlers (no pun intended) if she broke protocol or not in this case. I’m sure t was a once off and most of the country would agree that niceties shouldn’t apply to the leader of the biggest paedophile ring in the world.

Never the less she broke protocol , which a goverentment representitive should not do.

Fighting Tao · 28-08-2018 7:08pm

yrreg0850 wrote: »

Never the less she broke protocol , which a goverentment representitive should not do.

Did she? How do you know?

Sycamore Tree · 28-08-2018 7:11pm

yrreg0850 wrote: »

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I couldn’t give a fiddlers (no pun intended) if she broke protocol or not in this case. I’m sure t was a once off and most of the country would agree that niceties shouldn’t apply to the leader of the biggest paedophile ring in the world.

Never the less she broke protocol , which a goverentment representitive should not do.

They buried 800 children in a septic tank. Fcuk protocol.

FrancieBrady · 28-08-2018 7:22pm

yrreg0850 wrote: »

The visit to the Arus was On Saturday was a visit of one head of state (The Vatican) to another (Michael D).
On this occasion did Ms Zapone as the official Government representitive, breach protocol?
Ms Zapone badgerd the Pope who was there as a head of a state and, not head of a church.
She asked him to contribute towards the cost of the Tuam babies scandal .
The Irish state was as much to blame for this scandal . Those running the home were agents of the state and, the state should have been aware of the practices.

The Irish state will pay part of the reparations and the church the rest. The Pope is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church. The leader/Pope is always the Bishop of Rome who is also the leader of the Vatican. There is no separation.
There was no diplomatic faux pax.

billyhead · 28-08-2018 7:23pm

Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.

Dannyriver · 28-08-2018 7:25pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

They buried 800 children in a septic tank. Fcuk protocol.

A democratically elected government is of the people and for the people, the vast majority of the people wanted her to 'badger' the pope on this issue. It fills me with emotion that those little boys and girls have someone fighting their corner all these years later, the onus is on us to make sure they are not forgotten.

Dannyriver · 28-08-2018 7:27pm

billyhead wrote: »

Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.

This couldn t be further from the truth they are not past failures the continued cover up and refusal to accept full responsibility and the legal/criminal consequences that entails is happening right now.

Fighting Tao · 28-08-2018 7:28pm

billyhead wrote: »

Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.

I got as far as the bold bit and won’t read any more of your tripe. We as a nation will not let the child abuse, murder, mistreatment of women, and the many other crimes perpetrated by the RCC be buried in the sand.

FrancieBrady · 28-08-2018 7:37pm

billyhead wrote: »

Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.

This is just the sort of blackmail the church uses all the time.

If I question you, then I am questioning your faith.

I don't care what you believe in nor expect you to care about my faith or belief.

When your faith impinges on me and mine and others then you will hear from me.

Somebody is lying here, you the pope or God. Because as we have heard, nobody is living by the rules of this church,(not even close) yet everyone is expecting to enter the pearly gates and now you reckon this man in Rome can get you through them.

Nobody here has answered this yet: Why all the heartbreak, torture and inhumanity over the years from this Church in enforcing it's rules if non obeying Roman Catholics are gonna get through the gates now?

What is it all about? Why have rules at all, why make every bit of social change a high moral ground ****show, if it all doesn't matter in the end?

RobertKK · 28-08-2018 7:38pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

It's not, factor in getting to the airport security checks time in the air waiting for luggage the far side. You're talking through a part of your anatomy other than your mouth.

I travel light so it isn't a big deal. I love travel so it is a pleasure and airport security is only a big deal for people who haven't a clue. I do book a window seat in the airplane for the views, and I take pictures, so its all good.

Sardine · 28-08-2018 7:45pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I couldn’t give a fiddlers (no pun intended) if she broke protocol or not in this case. I’m sure t was a once off and most of the country would agree that niceties shouldn’t apply to the leader of the biggest paedophile ring in the world.

In fairness I'd put the blame on the Irish Government and Police more so than the Pope or Vatican in this case. They must have known something yet let these terrors go on.

Dannyriver · 28-08-2018 7:47pm

Sardine wrote: »

In fairness I'd put the blame on the Irish Government and Police more so than the Pope or Vatican in this case. They must have known something yet let these terrors go on.

Do you not think it would be incumbent upon the vatican to know what s going on in its institutions , particularly when they are dealing with vulnerable children no?

Fighting Tao · 28-08-2018 7:47pm

Sardine wrote: »

In fairness I'd put the blame on the Irish Government and Police more so than the Pope or Vatican in this case. They must have known something yet let these terrors go on.

By that logic if you witness a murder it is your fault for the murder.

billyhead · 28-08-2018 7:48pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I got as far as the bold bit and won’t read any more of your tripe. We as a nation will not let the child abuse, murder, mistreatment of women, and the many other crimes perpetrated by the RCC be buried in the sand.

Look I said the Pope will hopefully reform the CC and assist the authorities bring those whom abused children to justice. Just see what happens and get on with your life rather then continuously spouting venomous spiel (we get the message) about the churches failings. You should try to have bit of faith or belief yourself (obviously in your case not following the CC). It might make you a happier person.

Dannyriver · 28-08-2018 7:51pm

billyhead wrote: »

Look I said the Pope will hopefully reform the CC and assist the authorities bring those whom abused children to justice. Just see what happens and get on with your life rather then spouting venomous spiel about the churches failings. You should try to have bit of faith or belief yourself (obviously in your case not following the CC). It might make you a happier person.

This dodging responsibility is going on for years , any criminal psychologist will tell you that they work on patterns of behaviour, do you not see a pattern of behaviour by the vatican...as an active member of the RCC how do you square that? Does it not infuriate you too?

Bubbaclaus · 28-08-2018 7:52pm

billyhead wrote: »

Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.

Yes, lets just forget about the rape of children and continued cover up of such. Sure twas only a minor thing and the continued cover up doesnt matter. Lets move on like those raped children have moved on. Sure a little rape never did anybody any harm.

/sarcasm

Trasna1 · 28-08-2018 7:52pm

Dannyriver wrote: »

Id see that as blind obedience due to indoctrination and fear of societal shame were people not to toe the line...the magical veil started to unravel in this country IMO after the Bishop Casey scandal. All power abuse is based on the threat of harm if someone deviates in other words fear whether it be physical [mafia/drug gangs] psychological [religion/big corpoation] The church in Ireland no longer has that weapon because to stand up to the oppressor is no longer accompanied by societal shame. A Freewill for the people was practiced in 2018 that wasn't available in 1979.

You really can't absolve society like that, everyone knew but no one did anything because it didn't suit Irish society at the time. And it doesn't suit Irish society now to acknowledge it's own failings because you'll end up pointing the finger at complicit parents and grandparents. You really don't think people didn't know who was doing the laundry when the sheets and tablecloths were dropped off at these institutions?

The churches abuses did not exist in a vacuum. People at the time knew right from wrong, they just didn't care or think these people important. It wasn't the church that made them ignore the abuses, they did that themselves.

The society at the time carries a certain culpability for that.

Fighting Tao · 28-08-2018 7:52pm

billyhead wrote: »

Look I said the Pope will hopefully reform the CC and assist the authorities bring those whom abused children to justice. Just see what happens and get on with your life rather then continuously spouting venomous spiel (we get the message) about the churches failings. You should try to have bit of faith or belief yourself (obviously in your case not following the CC). It might make you a happier person.

What was venenois in the truth I spoke? The fact that Ireland will noever forget is venemous??? Does the truth hurt you that much that your response is “stop saying bad things because I don’t want to hear them”?

I am a very happy person. I’d say that I’m happier than any catholic I know. Probably due to not having a weight on my shoulders all the time. No guilt or association with the venomous RCC.

Sofiztikated · 28-08-2018 7:53pm

billyhead wrote: »

Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.

I'll not be negative towards you, but I may be blunt.

You believe in God. Fine, no problem, but why do you believe in God, and why is it the same God that your parents most likely believe in? Why not the Norse Gods, or the Hindu Gods?

Your faith is important to you. Fair enough, I get the community of the Church aspect, and the safety of "If I do nice things, I'll be rewarded". But do you have faith in the Catholic Church as an entity, and that it tries to do good things?

What makes the Pope God's representative on Earth? Why are they trustworthy? If I woke up tomorrow and declared that God spoke to me, a sinner, and he told me to repent, and if I did so, I was to be the leader of the church, for it was part of his plan, I'd be told to piss off. Why do a group of Vatican brass choose who they want to be the gaffer, and why do they often disagree?

I genuinely have nothing against religious people, it's just not something I believe in. I know many good, religious people, from lay people to ministers. I know some ****ty religious people.

gctest50 · 28-08-2018 7:54pm

Trasna1 wrote: »

Is say that's true up to a point but imagine a world where the abuse scandals hadn't happened. There are many posters here that didn't attend, would any of you have attended had there been no abuse scandals?

People knew about the laundries (they sent their daughters there), the industrial schools (they left their children there) the abusive priests and all the other horrific abuses of the church at the time and they still went in 79. They might not have known the breadth of it but they did know it was happening. Sure it was still possible to get a flaking from a priest in a school in the year 2000, with most of the scandals uncovered by then and the church has plenty of support at the time.

Trasna1 wrote: »

People knew about the laundries

the industrial schools

Did they though ?

How many knew about Aras Attracta ? ever hear anything of it ?

until someone went to a lot of trouble with a video camera :

even then, the guilty ones tried to get the footage blocked from court

Ivy McGinty, a resident of Aras Attracta residential care centre.
Ivy is being dragged around the floor by a staff member.

Sardine · 28-08-2018 7:54pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

By that logic if you witness a murder it is your fault for the murder.

Well they kind of stood idly by. Might make them compliant somewhat because they are the authorities who are supposed to prevent this kind of thing.

Hitman3000 · 28-08-2018 7:55pm

RobertKK wrote:

I travel light so it isn't a big deal. I love travel so it is a pleasure and airport security is only a big deal for people who haven't a clue. I do book a window seat in the airplane for the views, and I take pictures, so its all good.

You claimed it was quicker to get to Rome rather than Dublin from down the country, that's some far out nonsense tbh.

Hitman3000 · 28-08-2018 7:56pm

Sardine wrote:

In fairness I'd put the blame on the Irish Government and Police more so than the Pope or Vatican in this case. They must have known something yet let these terrors go on.

So you absolve the perpetrators of the abuse and blame every one else for not stopping them?

Hitman3000 · 28-08-2018 7:58pm

billyhead wrote:

Look I said the Pope will hopefully reform the CC and assist the authorities bring those whom abused children to justice. Just see what happens and get on with your life rather then continuously spouting venomous spiel (we get the message) about the churches failings. You should try to have bit of faith or belief yourself (obviously in your case not following the CC). It might make you a happier person.

He won't, he's 5 years in the job and has done FA to root out the evil in his organisation. We already know he is willing to lie and accuse innocents of slander.

Sardine · 28-08-2018 7:59pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So you absolve the perpetrators of the abuse and blame every one else for not stopping them?

Yes :rolleyes:

Hitman3000 · 28-08-2018 8:00pm

Sardine wrote:

Yes

Thought so, everyone's fault but the church.

Dannyriver · 28-08-2018 8:02pm

Trasna1 wrote: »

You really can't absolve society like that, everyone knew but no one did anything because it didn't suit Irish society at the time. And it doesn't suit Irish society now to acknowledge it's own failings because you'll end up pointing the finger at complicit parents and grandparents. You really don't think people didn't know who was doing the laundry when the sheets and tablecloths were dropped off at these institutions?

The churches abuses did not exist in a vacuum. People at the time knew right from wrong, they just didn't care or think these people important. It wasn't the church that made them ignore the abuses, they did that themselves.

The society at the time carries a certain culpability for that.

I haven t 'absolved' anyone, I ve described the power of indoctrination and its ability to fashion group think through fear.

How did it suit society at the time?

This isn t all about sheets and tablecloths forced labour is the tip of the ice berg

They didn t care about these people at the time because a huge majority believed they were fallen women who gave birth to illegitimate children and thus were doing their penance for the mortal sins they commited [see my piece on indoctrination above]

I think you need to do some research on indoctrination and the power of psychological abuse plus google group think as a psychological construct while you are at it.

Sycamore Tree · 28-08-2018 8:12pm

billyhead wrote: »

Look I said the Pope will hopefully reform the CC and assist the authorities bring those whom abused children to justice. Just see what happens and get on with your life rather then continuously spouting venomous spiel (we get the message) about the churches failings. You should try to have bit of faith or belief yourself (obviously in your case not following the CC). It might make you a happier person.

Hopefully reform??? After what they did and continue to do, there should be more than bloody hope. I am not sure you give a toss what they did.

No you and the Vatican do not get the message. Chile and Pennsylvania are proof of that.

Francis missed the memo about the 800 Tuam babies or the Magdelene laundries. Or did he?

All secrecy, the odd forced apology and Zero Action.

RobertKK · 28-08-2018 8:13pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You claimed it was quicker to get to Rome rather than Dublin from down the country, that's some far out nonsense tbh.

Lets say just over an hour and a half to get to Dublin, it would take the ame to get home - this dependent on traffic being ok.
One can be in a foreign country in a shorter period, so after a day out which includes the airport, it is nicer going to a hotel in lets say Rome after a day out than having to make the trip back home from a day out in Dublin.
Maybe you avoid travel due to all the complaints you have aired.

Sycamore Tree · 28-08-2018 8:17pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Lets say just over an hour and a half to get to Dublin, it would take the ame to get home - this dependent on traffic being ok.
One can be in a foreign country in a shorter period, so after a day out which includes the airport, it is nicer going to a hotel in lets say Rome after a day out than having to make the trip back home from a day out in Dublin.
Maybe you avoid travel due to all the complaints you have aired.

FFS. You were once a fantastic poster on Boards.

Fighting Tao · 28-08-2018 8:18pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Lets say just over an hour and a half to get to Dublin, it would take the ame to get home - this dependent on traffic being ok.
One can be in a foreign country in a shorter period, so after a day out which includes the airport, it is nicer going to a hotel in lets say Rome after a day out than having to make the trip back home from a day out in Dublin.
Maybe you avoid travel due to all the complaints you have aired.

Nah. 3hr+ flight to Rome and 40 min into city centre. Not including faffing around getting to the airport here and after landing in Rome.

Your comment was full of crap. Just admit it and get it over with :pac:

Hitman3000 · 28-08-2018 8:19pm

RobertKK wrote:

Lets say just over an hour and a half to get to Dublin, it would take the ame to get home - this dependent on traffic being ok. One can be in a foreign country in a shorter period, so after a day out which includes the airport, it is nicer going to a hotel in lets say Rome after a day out than having to make the trip back home from a day out in Dublin. Maybe you avoid travel due to all the complaints you have aired.

Seriously, you are making a fool of yourself now.

gctest50 · 28-08-2018 8:33pm

https://www.thedailybeast.com/romes-new-open-air-markets-for-sex

Rome’s New Open-Air Markets for Sex

There are prostitutes all over Italy, many of them trafficked women and girls. Now there may be special districts in the capital set aside for their activities.

Italy’s most famous john, though, is former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who was convicted for abetting underage prostitution in the infamous “Ruby Heart-Stealer” scandal.

volchitsa · 28-08-2018 9:14pm

Trasna1 wrote: »

You really can't absolve society like that, everyone knew but no one did anything because it didn't suit Irish society at the time. And it doesn't suit Irish society now to acknowledge it's own failings because you'll end up pointing the finger at complicit parents and grandparents. You really don't think people didn't know who was doing the laundry when the sheets and tablecloths were dropped off at these institutions?

The churches abuses did not exist in a vacuum. People at the time knew right from wrong, they just didn't care or think these people important. It wasn't the church that made them ignore the abuses, they did that themselves.

The society at the time carries a certain culpability for that.

Are you saying that society as a whole knew that priests were raping children, and that all the shock when the first reports were published were all a pretence?

Or are you, as it seems to me, picking just the physical abuse, and conflating everything else into that?

Could you tell us what responsibility you think Irish society as a whole has for the sexual abuse carried out by priests, and covered up by their hierarchy?

Hotblack Desiato · 28-08-2018 9:17pm

Trasna1 wrote: »

The saying goes that there are no atheists in foxholes I believe.

Yes. It's not true though.

http://militaryatheists.org/

https://ffrf.org/outreach/atheists-in-foxholes

yrreg0850 · 28-08-2018 9:31pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Did she? How do you know?

Her function was to welcome a guest on behalf of the goverment, not attack him.

batgoat · 28-08-2018 9:32pm

yrreg0850 wrote: »

Her function was to welcome a guest on behalf of the goverment, not attack him.

The Tuam scandal is something the church very much so deserve to be attacked on(doesn't seem like an attack btw). Consider the fact that Corless was attacked by numerous pieces of Catholic media including smear campaigns against her findings. Get your priorities in order.

Fighting Tao · 28-08-2018 9:33pm

yrreg0850 wrote: »

Her function was to welcome a guest on behalf of the goverment, not attack him.

Attack???

FrancieBrady · 28-08-2018 9:38pm

yrreg0850 wrote: »

Her function was to welcome a guest on behalf of the goverment, not attack him.

She didn't attack him, she didn't give him any deference I think you mean. Which seems to annoy Roman Catholics. But as you said, he was there in his capacity of head of state.

Personally, it sickens me that hundreds of children can be cast into a septic tank, discarded like rubbish and it doesn't instantly land on to the desk of the boss of the organisation responsible, immediately.

What is going on when that doesn't happen?

yrreg0850 · 28-08-2018 9:58pm

[QUOTE=Personally, it sickens me that hundreds of children can be cast into a septic tank, discarded like rubbish and it doesn't instantly land on to the desk of the boss of the organisation responsible, immediately.
What is going on when that doesn't happen?[/QUOTE]

The state at the time was just as much to blame.

FrancieBrady · 28-08-2018 10:00pm

yrreg0850 wrote: »

The state at the time was just as much to blame.

And the state is being held to account for it's part in it.

Stop trying to deflect from the main culprits.

Fighting Tao · 28-08-2018 10:01pm

yrreg0850 wrote: »

The state at the time was just as much to blame.

Who systematically raped children along with many other her crimeS?

JeffKenna · 28-08-2018 10:02pm

Letter to the editor in today's Examiner (hope I attached it correctly)

Fighting Tao · 28-08-2018 10:04pm

JeffKenna wrote: »

Letter to the editor in today's Examiner (hope I attached it correctly)

Headline is enough. Sounds like the sae crap people have being belting out here louder than they’d sing the national anthem before a match. How am I to blame when I was only a child?

JeffKenna · 28-08-2018 10:07pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Headline is enough. Sounds like the sae crap people have being belting out here louder than they’d sing the national anthem before a match. How am I to blame when I was only a child?

No one said you were. However your family were.

Fighting Tao · 28-08-2018 10:09pm

JeffKenna wrote: »

No one said you were. However your family were.

And if they knew nothing of it because they were good catholics?

Is it too much to ask for those responsive to accept that they were responsible?

If I broke a window I’d confess to the owner.

JeffKenna · 28-08-2018 10:11pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

And if they knew nothing of it because they were good catholics?

Is it too much to ask for those responsive to accept that they were responsible?

If I broke a window I’d confess to the owner.

What if you saw a window being broke and just walked by?

So who's going to see the Pope?

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