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So who's going to see the Pope?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭ Edgware


    That’s my point exactly.

    They still go back to the church for various reasons. This perfect catholic thing doesn’t really exist except for the hardcore believers. The rest just are a la carte as someone said above.
    But when the third engine on the four engines plane goes kaput even the atheists takes a chance on a few Hail Marys.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 565 Trasna1


    Edgware wrote: »
    But when the third engine on the four engines plane goes kaput even the atheists takes a chance on a few Hail Marys.

    The saying goes that there are no atheists in foxholes I believe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,297 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    Edgware wrote: »
    But when the third engine on the four engines plane goes kaput even the atheists takes a chance on a few Hail Marys.

    LOL, "Oh God", Jesus, help me. It is instinctive.

    I suppose those of non Christian backgrounds have their own hollerings too.

    None of us want to die. Because it is the end really. Well no one came back to tell me otherwise. Much as I would have loved to see and hear them again. Not going to happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,304 ✭✭✭✭ FrancieBrady


    LOL, "Oh God", Jesus, help me. It is instinctive.

    I suppose those of non Christian backgrounds have their own hollerings too.

    None of us want to die. Because it is the end really. Well no one came back to tell me otherwise. Much as I would have loved to see and hear them again. Not going to happen.

    If this God is going to let in Roman Catholics who break all his 'rules' I dare say there is a good chance atheists will get in too under the God in his Infinite Mercy clause.
    How would he tell the difference, a card stamped showing you attended mass when the humour was on you or I watched the pope in the Phoenix Park on the telly? :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,297 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    If this God is going to let in Roman Catholics who break all his 'rules' I dare say there is a good chance atheists will get in too under the God in his Infinite Mercy clause.
    How would he tell the difference, a card stamped showing you attended mass when the humour was on you or I watched the pope in the Phoenix Park on the telly? :D

    Indeed.

    I'd say also, follow the money re the Vatican. The Pope is just a smokescreen and he knows it.

    So much wealth and so little redress for those defiled and humiliated over the years. Says it all for me anyway. Not really much God there, but a lot of ritual, the Pope's weekly audience and so on.

    But the Vatican is off the radar really other than the odd popping out of the Pope for the masses now and then. Keeps the faithful happy, while who knows what is happening behind the scenes. The Pope is a puppet.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,727 ✭✭✭ Arthur Daley


    But the Vatican is off the radar really other than the odd popping out of the Pope for the masses now and then. Keeps the faithful happy, while who knows what is happening behind the scenes. The Pope is a puppet.

    Who runs the show in this conspiracy?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,297 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    Who runs the show in this conspiracy?

    The Curia and the Gays. Nothing wrong with the Gays, but they do not admit they are. Because they cannot. Or they will turn into a pillar of salt.

    However, the Curia is a dangerous entity and runs the show. Pope is just a figurehead and is terrified of them.

    Anyone in ordinary life every heard of the word "dicastery", well read this and you will see the word but may still have no idea what it means! You will never hear that word in your own parish either.

    All meant to obfuscate and hark back to the obscurity of Latin to exclude most of us.

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/index.htm


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,153 ✭✭✭✭ NIMAN


    Indeed.

    I'd say also, follow the money re the Vatican. The Pope is just a smokescreen and he knows it.

    So much wealth and so little redress for those defiled and humiliated over the years. Says it all for me anyway. Not really much God there, but a lot of ritual, the Pope's weekly audience and so on.

    But the Vatican is off the radar really other than the odd popping out of the Pope for the masses now and then. Keeps the faithful happy, while who knows what is happening behind the scenes. The Pope is a puppet.

    I always wondered how the church were able to avoid any police service coming to take these paedo's away for questioning?

    Is some child reported me or you as an abuser, I'd say the Guards would be at my door looking to get me in for questioning.

    Yet did they ever go along to bishops and question them over withholding information, or for harbouring criminals? How many parochial houses did they do morning raids on?

    Would the Italian police be able to go to the Vatican to arrest someone? (I'n guessing not since it is a separate country to Italy).


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,297 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    NIMAN wrote: »
    I always wondered how the church were able to avoid any police service coming to take these paedo's away for questioning?

    Is some child reported me or you as an abuser, I'd say the Guards would be at my door looking to get me in for questioning.

    Yet did they ever go along to bishops and question them over withholding information, or for harbouring criminals? How many parochial houses did they do morning raids on?

    Would the Italian police be able to go to the Vatican to arrest someone? (I'n guessing not since it is a separate country to Italy).

    I think there is something very wrong about the Vatican State, well the Curia and the banking system anyway. They seem to be invincible and never subject to any scrutiny.

    We will probably never know, but it is healthy to have suspicions about the set up just the same. I doubt any Italian would be willing to question the Pope. That is why the Curia wheel him out every now and then. No one can ask any questions.

    Rotten to the absolute core I would suggest, and no wonder Benny decided to feck off out of it all. But he was a fekkin coward too. But may have had a price on his head who knows. It's all a bit odd.

    The wording of documents emanating from the Curia are designed to keep the ordinary Joe/Josephine from any meddling. Quite a medieval entity IMV, keep the Vassals in line.

    The Pope is nothing but a figurehead. Doubt he has any power to change anything at all. Well no other Pope dared over the last forty odd years did they?

    Call me a sceptic if you want, but honestly it is just so weird a set up, it is no wonder yer man that wrote those books made a mint. Sorry his name just won't come to me right now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭ jimbobaloobob



    Call me a sceptic if you want, but honestly it is just so weird a set up, it is no wonder yer man that wrote those books made a mint. Sorry his name just won't come to me right now.


    Dan Brown?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,297 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    Dan Brown?

    The very man, thanks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭ batgoat


    Edgware wrote: »
    That’s my point exactly.

    They still go back to the church for various reasons. This perfect catholic thing doesn’t really exist except for the hardcore believers. The rest just are a la carte as someone said above.
    But when the third engine on the four engines plane goes kaput even the atheists takes a chance on a few Hail Marys.
    I was incredibly ill at one stage, I genuinely thought I might die as doctors were struggling to diagnose. I didn't find Jesus all of a sudden or start praying... Guessing it's similar for most who aren't religious.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,845 timthumbni


    On the utv news tonight some priest claimed that the catholic church was now the safest place for children in Ireland. He also said that some of the survivors of abuse may just want a hug......... I **** you not.

    And they say comedy is dead.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,153 ✭✭✭✭ NIMAN


    I think there is something very wrong about the Vatican State, well the Curia and the banking system anyway. They seem to be invincible and never subject to any scrutiny.

    We will probably never know, but it is healthy to have suspicions about the set up just the same. I doubt any Italian would be willing to question the Pope. That is why the Curia wheel him out every now and then. No one can ask any questions.

    Rotten to the absolute core I would suggest, and no wonder Benny decided to feck off out of it all. But he was a fekkin coward too. But may have had a price on his head who knows. It's all a bit odd.

    The wording of documents emanating from the Curia are designed to keep the ordinary Joe/Josephine from any meddling. Quite a medieval entity IMV, keep the Vassals in line.

    The Pope is nothing but a figurehead. Doubt he has any power to change anything at all. Well no other Pope dared over the last forty odd years did they?

    Call me a sceptic if you want, but honestly it is just so weird a set up, it is no wonder yer man that wrote those books made a mint. Sorry his name just won't come to me right now.
    I agree that the pope has little real power.

    I was listening to the radio this morning , and apparently this current one had a few new ideas of changes he wanted, but he has since scrapped them as he wasn't getting any support.

    No, I was lead to believe he didn't need support. If he said he wanted this done, it got done, end of.

    But apparently not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,845 timthumbni


    Daniel O’Donnell had a lovely day out so at least that’s something. His better half sure as feck wasn’t making tea for all that crowd anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,845 timthumbni


    Also just found out that Nathan carter wasn’t Irish but a scouser. Mind blown.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,796 ✭✭✭✭ hatrickpatrick


    It is, was and always will be about control by men over women.

    I would never deny the sh!t that women go through under Catholic doctrine but this idea that gets thrown around that it's a barrel of laughs for guys is totally disingenuous and kinda pisses me off tbh. For instance, a young boy's sexuality is suppressed just as much by moronic Catholic doctrine as a young woman's - young boys are routinely old by "Christians" that they're somehow committing an offence against the universe if they touch their own privates or look at a girl and find her attractive. Obviously that didn't go as far as boys literally being locked up for being sexual like it did with girls, but plenty of boys have been through absolute hell at the hands of warped, f*cked up Catholic dogma and the indoctrination into that.

    I personally don't see it as being as black and white as "control of men by women" - men who don't conform to the "sex is evil and it's only tolerated for the purpose of not going extinct as a species" bullsh!t are just as vilified by the Catholic Church. Hell, online forums about Christianity in the early 2000s littered with posts from guys desperately seeking advice on how not to go to hell after they "lost control" and had an occasional fap. And God help the poor lads of the same era who realised they were gay and sought help in avoiding eternity in a fiery furnace for that grave offence against humanity - sincerely believing that this awaited them after having literally done nothing wrong is a psychological torment I can't even imagine.

    It's utterly f*cked up and in my view it doesn't discriminate by gender the way some claim it does. The church is utterly sh!t towards women, but it's also utterly sh!t towards guys who don't want to hop on the asexuality bandwagon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,086 ✭✭✭ volchitsa


    Good point about boys being damaged too, Patrick. It might be more accurate to say that religion is run for the benefit of better off older men, at the expense of all the rest of society.

    It's a less extreme form of the harm done by those polygamous cults in the US (going by TV reports on them!) where the fact that a few older powerful men got many wives meant that many young men had to leave if they wanted to marry. And they're probably pretty f-ed up sexually too.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ Currache


    I wouldn't go if you paid me to!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,472 EdgeCase


    You’ve also got the history of boys being beaten to absolute pulp by the old school system. Then far, far worse to those who were in the industrial schools and even in some cases normal boarding schools. I’ve heard stories that would really leave you feeling ill. It was mostly savage and sadistic brutality and there was a huge amount of psychological and emotional abuse too.

    Women got an extra dose of sadistic treatment due to the hang ups about sexuality and particularly pregnancy that wasn’t authorised by the church.

    The whole thing was absolutely awful though. There are generations absolutely messed up by it.

    I actually wonder is part of the reason the Irish economy was so flat until the 1990s because of how the system treated people. When you look at how school children were beaten up and made to conform to work camp or prison like conditions, abused, aggressively attacked and told constantly not to talk and not to express themselves, it basically knocked the creativity out of them

    Was the result of that several generations of underachieving, lack of self confidence and people flourishing when they were away from “the system” in other countries ?

    From what I can see modern Ireland only began to emerge in the 70s and mostly emerged in the late 80s and 90s. The fundamental changes having happened with the end of things like corporal punishment in the early 80s.

    You’d wonder what the socioeconomic costs to this country were of all of that. There was a fear factory in operation run by church and state and I don’t know what its aim was, if it even had any, but it caused huge amounts of damage.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,557 ✭✭✭✭ Akrasia


    I would never deny the sh!t that women go through under Catholic doctrine but this idea that gets thrown around that it's a barrel of laughs for guys is totally disingenuous and kinda pisses me off tbh. For instance, a young boy's sexuality is suppressed just as much by moronic Catholic doctrine as a young woman's - young boys are routinely old by "Christians" that they're somehow committing an offence against the universe if they touch their own privates or look at a girl and find her attractive. Obviously that didn't go as far as boys literally being locked up for being sexual like it did with girls, but plenty of boys have been through absolute hell at the hands of warped, f*cked up Catholic dogma and the indoctrination into that.

    I personally don't see it as being as black and white as "control of men by women" - men who don't conform to the "sex is evil and it's only tolerated for the purpose of not going extinct as a species" bullsh!t are just as vilified by the Catholic Church. Hell, online forums about Christianity in the early 2000s littered with posts from guys desperately seeking advice on how not to go to hell after they "lost control" and had an occasional fap. And God help the poor lads of the same era who realised they were gay and sought help in avoiding eternity in a fiery furnace for that grave offence against humanity - sincerely believing that this awaited them after having literally done nothing wrong is a psychological torment I can't even imagine.

    It's utterly f*cked up and in my view it doesn't discriminate by gender the way some claim it does. The church is utterly sh!t towards women, but it's also utterly sh!t towards guys who don't want to hop on the asexuality bandwagon.
    Lots of young boys were shipped off to the christian brothers and other religious orders to become monks or priests from a really young age (12 or 13 years old) and were denied any chance of ever exploring their own sexuality in a natural and healthy way. Children were recruited directly out of Primary school to join the orders.

    The fact that christian brothers were taken away from their homes when they were barely teenagers and raised in institutions under disciplinarian conditions does explain why so many of them grew up to become sexual deviants and violent disciplinarians.

    My wife's father was one of those children who managed to get out before his training was complete (he ran away to England) and he never spoke about his time there only to say that he didn't want to talk about it.

    The catholic church destroyed so many lives in so many different ways


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,472 EdgeCase


    I remember speaking to an elderly Christian Brother about his life and it was very sad to hear how he’d been brought up, basically institutionalised.

    He had joined the order when he was less than 14, being loured in with promises of playing football.

    He’d been denied the right to have a normal end of his childhood and adolescence. He’d never gone out with his friends, he’d never had a girlfriend (or boyfriend), he probably never had a romantic relationship of any kind and he had been pulled out of his home so, never had a normal interaction with his parents or his siblings either.

    He was also very bitter about it and felt his life had been stolen from him. He was telling me about how missed out on so many things. Mostly it was about what could have been - like he was wondering if he would have been a grandad. What family Christmases would have been like and so on.

    I remember my mum saying that when she got married in 1979 that the nuns she taught with in school weren’t allowed to attend “in case it gave them any ideas”.

    A lot of the religious communities were very damaged people themselves. I’m not saying that to excuse their behavior but you’re effectively dealing with institutionalised cult members and I’m not saying that as an insult to them either. It’s just the fact of it. Broken people often go on to break other people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,433 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    You’ve also got the history of boys being beaten to absolute pulp by the old school system. Then far, far worse to those who were in the industrial schools and even in some cases normal boarding schools. I’ve heard stories that would really leave you feeling ill. It was mostly savage and sadistic brutality and there was a huge amount of psychological and emotional abuse too.

    Women got an extra dose of sadistic treatment due to the hang ups about sexuality and particularly pregnancy that wasn’t authorised by the church.

    The whole thing was absolutely awful though. There are generations absolutely messed up by it.

    I actually wonder is part of the reason the Irish economy was so flat until the 1990s because of how the system treated people. When you look at how school children were beaten up and made to conform to work camp or prison like conditions, abused, aggressively attacked and told constantly not to talk and not to express themselves, it basically knocked the creativity out of them

    Whilst there may some truth in the way the church and state wanted to keep us good god fearing catholics dancing at the cross-roads, not on a sunday night mind you, I think you are totally over egging that as a reason.
    Lemass set the ball rolling.
    Dev should have been put out to grass decades before as he held the country back in so many ways.

    The entry to EU cannot be underestimated, nor the advent of free secondary education thanks to Donogh O'Malley in the 60s.
    This really started to bear fruit in late 70s and 80s.
    EdgeCase wrote: »
    Was the result of that several generations of underachieving, lack of self confidence and people flourishing when they were away from “the system” in other countries ?

    Opportunity my dear boy/girl.
    I know of someone that left school at 14, the usual age for end of primary school and got job with council as tea boy.
    He left and went to America.
    He finished high school at night, went to college, got a degree, masters and PHD and major job with multi-national.
    He would never have the opportunity here.

    Also in places like the states, failure has never been punished as here, so many people can fail a few times before they succeed.

    Another huge stumbling block was the availability of credit.
    I remember working in small West of Ireland struggling manufacturing company in early 90s and the fear, the pure fear, that existed when one of our major banks came calling to review loans and financial state.
    These were the same fooking banks that a decade later were fooking money out like confetti at a wedding to every Tom, Dick and Mary who wanted to build property.
    One of the same banks the taxpayers had to bail out.
    EdgeCase wrote: »
    From what I can see modern Ireland only began to emerge in the 70s and mostly emerged in the late 80s and 90s. The fundamental changes having happened with the end of things like corporal punishment in the early 80s.

    It was not corporal punishment.

    Education in 70s, 80s.
    EEC membership.
    FDI into Ireland.
    And from the 80s onwards the computer industry multi-national players coming into Ireland due to
    a) our very low tax rates
    b) our EEC/EU membership and
    c) our cheap educated workforce who spoke English

    All of the above changed Ireland from a backward backwater to an out front country.

    There were other cultural things that happened particularly in 80s, early 90s that changed the perception of Irish people and gave the country confidence that they could achieve, even on the biggest stages.

    Things like fact that we had Irish pop bands topping the charts in Uk and USA, our soccer team going to international tournaments and doing ok, we had Irish sportsmen suddenly winning world titles.
    Don't underestimate things even like Eurovision were we blew the socks off people with an interval act and our staging was revolutionary for it's time.

    Suddenly we were not just taking part we were competing, we were leading and doing a damn fine job.

    Actually as someone who went through school and experienced the latter stage of corporal punishment I think it's end was a two edged sword.
    In my time there wasn't the same brutality that existed in my parents time, but some teachers of course could be utter bast*rds.

    But what is the situation now?
    Cases of feral kids effectively getting away with intimidation of teachers.
    And often shag all is being done about it.
    Why, because the little scrot johnny can't be touched.

    I think education and our easy access to the rest of the modern world helped make people cop on that there was something better out there, that we no longer had to cow tow to the local priest.
    The bishop casey affair was one of the watershed moments and then all the following revelations about the likes of brendan smyth, etc really set the rot in.
    Suddenly even people who had believed in the church and it's preaching all their lives were questioning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭ Dannyriver


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    You’ve also got the history of boys being beaten to absolute pulp by the old school system. Then far, far worse to those who were in the industrial schools and even in some cases normal boarding schools. I’ve heard stories that would really leave you feeling ill. It was mostly savage and sadistic brutality and there was a huge amount of psychological and emotional abuse too.

    Women got an extra dose of sadistic treatment due to the hang ups about sexuality and particularly pregnancy that wasn’t authorised by the church.

    The whole thing was absolutely awful though. There are generations absolutely messed up by it.

    I actually wonder is part of the reason the Irish economy was so flat until the 1990s because of how the system treated people. When you look at how school children were beaten up and made to conform to work camp or prison like conditions, abused, aggressively attacked and told constantly not to talk and not to express themselves, it basically knocked the creativity out of them

    Was the result of that several generations of underachieving, lack of self confidence and people flourishing when they were away from “the system” in other countries ?

    From what I can see modern Ireland only began to emerge in the 70s and mostly emerged in the late 80s and 90s. The fundamental changes having happened with the end of things like corporal punishment in the early 80s.

    You’d wonder what the socioeconomic costs to this country were of all of that. There was a fear factory in operation run by church and state and I don’t know what its aim was, if it even had any, but it caused huge amounts of damage.

    I d say that had more to to do with the economic benefits kicking in from joining the European Union


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 565 Trasna1


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    You’ve also got the history of boys being beaten to absolute pulp by the old school system. Then far, far worse to those who were in the industrial schools and even in some cases normal boarding schools. I’ve heard stories that would really leave you feeling ill. It was mostly savage and sadistic brutality and there was a huge amount of psychological and emotional abuse too.

    Women got an extra dose of sadistic treatment due to the hang ups about sexuality and particularly pregnancy that wasn’t authorised by the church.

    The whole thing was absolutely awful though. There are generations absolutely messed up by it.

    I actually wonder is part of the reason the Irish economy was so flat until the 1990s because of how the system treated people. When you look at how school children were beaten up and made to conform to work camp or prison like conditions, abused, aggressively attacked and told constantly not to talk and not to express themselves, it basically knocked the creativity out of them

    Was the result of that several generations of underachieving, lack of self confidence and people flourishing when they were away from “the system” in other countries ?

    From what I can see modern Ireland only began to emerge in the 70s and mostly emerged in the late 80s and 90s. The fundamental changes having happened with the end of things like corporal punishment in the early 80s.

    You’d wonder what the socioeconomic costs to this country were of all of that. There was a fear factory in operation run by church and state and I don’t know what its aim was, if it even had any, but it caused huge amounts of damage.

    Correlation does not imply causation.

    If you look at other Western democracies, the decline of church is seen as the result of economic advancement not the other way around.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭ .......


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    There was a fear factory in operation run by church and state and I don’t know what its aim was, if it even had any, but it caused huge amounts of damage.

    Control. Power. To create more believers.

    Control of the masses. Control of the fertility of women (no sex before marriage, no contraception after, no abortion). Shame men and women both about bodily pleasures so they dont deviate from baby making after an approved catholic marriage. Shame everyone about nonsensical things such as fancying their neighbours wife. Put a system in place where a man in ceremonial robes gets to shame you in a dark silent room. Add lots of pomp, ceremony, holy bread, holy words, holy items and special costumes with ritual ceremonies to keep everything thinking something important is happening and bingo - youve got religion.

    The point of it all is to create more believers. Higher numbers means more power in social policy. More power in social policy means control over a population and ultimately, more money.

    The ultimate in power is to be someone who is seen as one of the most important people in the world. The pope. A man for whom countries roll out the red carpet, they pay to host him. He is a man of power. He says things and millions of people worldwide listen.

    Power, control, more believers. Thats all its about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,602 ✭✭✭ Hitman3000


    ....... wrote:
    Power, control, more believers. Thats all its about.


    You forgot money.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭ .......


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    You forgot money.

    You get the money from the power.

    But its not really about money. I mean, the Pope has a nice standard of living and all that, but he isnt enjoying the spoils of money in any excessive way. He hasnt got a fleet of fancy cars, he isnt going on lovely holidays and although he may be secretly enjoying coke and hookers behind closed doors - he isnt at strip clubs or on yachts or doing anything that one might imagine one would do with unlimited money. He isnt even disappearing into his private estates and doing whatever he likes there like the british royal family for months each year.

    So I think its more about power than money. There is plenty of money, but its not being used for the enrichment of the upper hierarchies lives. It is getting used to influence social policy in the countries where they want more power though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,054 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    ....... wrote: »

    Power, control, more believers. Thats all its about.

    You forgot money.




    you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,602 ✭✭✭ Hitman3000


    ....... wrote:
    So I think its more about power than money. There is plenty of money, but its not being used for the enrichment of the upper hierarchies lives. It is getting used to influence social policy in the countries where they want more power though.

    If you don't think it's about money visit the Vatican and ask why was the church seeking an indemnity against abuse cases. Protecting assets is front and centre.


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