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So who's going to see the Pope?

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    #3752
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    billyhead wrote: »
    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    So you saw him once, can't have been a great experience if you didn't want to see him a second time especially when he was so close to home......

    It was a great experience for me to see him in Rome. He went around in the pope mobile and you could get up close to view him. I felt there was no need to go to this one personally as the weather was muck and everything was viewable live on tv.
    Do you mind me asking why you want to SEE him so much? Is it in the celebrity sense or do you actually see him as more than a famous man from Argentina? Like do you think he is God's rep on Earth with a direct line to heaven? Will seeing him give you something e.g. indulgence?


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    #3753
    Try_harder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,681 ✭✭✭Try_harder


    I got a mug!


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    #3754
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    yrreg0850 wrote: »
    The visit to the Arus was On Saturday was a visit of one head of state (The Vatican) to another (Michael D).
    On this occasion did Ms Zapone as the official Government representitive, breach protocol?
    Ms Zapone badgerd the Pope who was there as a head of a state and, not head of a church.
    She asked him to contribute towards the cost of the Tuam babies scandal .
    The Irish state was as much to blame for this scandal . Those running the home were agents of the state and, the state should have been aware of the practices.

    I couldn’t give a fiddlers (no pun intended) if she broke protocol or not in this case. I’m sure t was a once off and most of the country would agree that niceties shouldn’t apply to the leader of the biggest paedophile ring in the world.


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    #3755
    yrreg0850
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭yrreg0850


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    I couldn’t give a fiddlers (no pun intended) if she broke protocol or not in this case. I’m sure t was a once off and most of the country would agree that niceties shouldn’t apply to the leader of the biggest paedophile ring in the world.


    Never the less she broke protocol , which a goverentment representitive should not do.


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    #3756
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    yrreg0850 wrote: »
    Never the less she broke protocol , which a goverentment representitive should not do.

    Did she? How do you know?


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    #3757
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    yrreg0850 wrote: »
    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    I couldn’t give a fiddlers (no pun intended) if she broke protocol or not in this case. I’m sure t was a once off and most of the country would agree that niceties shouldn’t apply to the leader of the biggest paedophile ring in the world.


    Never the less she broke protocol , which a goverentment representitive should not do.

    They buried 800 children in a septic tank. Fcuk protocol.


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    #3758
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,865 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    yrreg0850 wrote: »
    The visit to the Arus was On Saturday was a visit of one head of state (The Vatican) to another (Michael D).
    On this occasion did Ms Zapone as the official Government representitive, breach protocol?
    Ms Zapone badgerd the Pope who was there as a head of a state and, not head of a church.
    She asked him to contribute towards the cost of the Tuam babies scandal .
    The Irish state was as much to blame for this scandal . Those running the home were agents of the state and, the state should have been aware of the practices.

    The Irish state will pay part of the reparations and the church the rest. The Pope is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church. The leader/Pope is always the Bishop of Rome who is also the leader of the Vatican. There is no separation.
    There was no diplomatic faux pax.


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    #3759
    billyhead
    Registered Users Posts: 9,546 ✭✭✭billyhead


    Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.


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    #3760
    Dannyriver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    Sycamore Tree wrote: »
    They buried 800 children in a septic tank. Fcuk protocol.

    A democratically elected government is of the people and for the people, the vast majority of the people wanted her to 'badger' the pope on this issue. It fills me with emotion that those little boys and girls have someone fighting their corner all these years later, the onus is on us to make sure they are not forgotten.


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    #3761
    Dannyriver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    billyhead wrote: »
    Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.

    This couldn t be further from the truth they are not past failures the continued cover up and refusal to accept full responsibility and the legal/criminal consequences that entails is happening right now.


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    #3762
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    billyhead wrote: »
    Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.

    I got as far as the bold bit and won’t read any more of your tripe. We as a nation will not let the child abuse, murder, mistreatment of women, and the many other crimes perpetrated by the RCC be buried in the sand.


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    #3763
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,865 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    billyhead wrote: »
    Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.

    This is just the sort of blackmail the church uses all the time.

    If I question you, then I am questioning your faith.

    I don't care what you believe in nor expect you to care about my faith or belief.

    When your faith impinges on me and mine and others then you will hear from me.

    Somebody is lying here, you the pope or God. Because as we have heard, nobody is living by the rules of this church,(not even close) yet everyone is expecting to enter the pearly gates and now you reckon this man in Rome can get you through them.

    Nobody here has answered this yet: Why all the heartbreak, torture and inhumanity over the years from this Church in enforcing it's rules if non obeying Roman Catholics are gonna get through the gates now?

    What is it all about? Why have rules at all, why make every bit of social change a high moral ground ****show, if it all doesn't matter in the end?


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    #3764
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,728 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    It's not, factor in getting to the airport security checks time in the air waiting for luggage the far side. You're talking through a part of your anatomy other than your mouth.

    I travel light so it isn't a big deal. I love travel so it is a pleasure and airport security is only a big deal for people who haven't a clue. I do book a window seat in the airplane for the views, and I take pictures, so its all good.


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    #3765
    Sardine
    Site Banned Posts: 210 ✭✭Sardine


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    I couldn’t give a fiddlers (no pun intended) if she broke protocol or not in this case. I’m sure t was a once off and most of the country would agree that niceties shouldn’t apply to the leader of the biggest paedophile ring in the world.

    In fairness I'd put the blame on the Irish Government and Police more so than the Pope or Vatican in this case. They must have known something yet let these terrors go on.


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    #3766
    Dannyriver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    Sardine wrote: »
    In fairness I'd put the blame on the Irish Government and Police more so than the Pope or Vatican in this case. They must have known something yet let these terrors go on.

    Do you not think it would be incumbent upon the vatican to know what s going on in its institutions , particularly when they are dealing with vulnerable children no?


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    #3767
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Sardine wrote: »
    In fairness I'd put the blame on the Irish Government and Police more so than the Pope or Vatican in this case. They must have known something yet let these terrors go on.

    By that logic if you witness a murder it is your fault for the murder.


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    #3768
    billyhead
    Registered Users Posts: 9,546 ✭✭✭billyhead


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    I got as far as the bold bit and won’t read any more of your tripe. We as a nation will not let the child abuse, murder, mistreatment of women, and the many other crimes perpetrated by the RCC be buried in the sand.

    Look I said the Pope will hopefully reform the CC and assist the authorities bring those whom abused children to justice. Just see what happens and get on with your life rather then continuously spouting venomous spiel (we get the message) about the churches failings. You should try to have bit of faith or belief yourself (obviously in your case not following the CC). It might make you a happier person.


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    #3769
    Dannyriver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    billyhead wrote: »
    Look I said the Pope will hopefully reform the CC and assist the authorities bring those whom abused children to justice. Just see what happens and get on with your life rather then spouting venomous spiel about the churches failings. You should try to have bit of faith or belief yourself (obviously in your case not following the CC). It might make you a happier person.

    This dodging responsibility is going on for years , any criminal psychologist will tell you that they work on patterns of behaviour, do you not see a pattern of behaviour by the vatican...as an active member of the RCC how do you square that? Does it not infuriate you too?


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    #3770
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    billyhead wrote: »
    Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.

    Yes, lets just forget about the rape of children and continued cover up of such. Sure twas only a minor thing and the continued cover up doesnt matter. Lets move on like those raped children have moved on. Sure a little rape never did anybody any harm.

    /sarcasm


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    #3771
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    Dannyriver wrote: »
    Id see that as blind obedience due to indoctrination and fear of societal shame were people not to toe the line...the magical veil started to unravel in this country IMO after the Bishop Casey scandal. All power abuse is based on the threat of harm if someone deviates in other words fear whether it be physical [mafia/drug gangs] psychological [religion/big corpoation] The church in Ireland no longer has that weapon because to stand up to the oppressor is no longer accompanied by societal shame. A Freewill for the people was practiced in 2018 that wasn't available in 1979.
    You really can't absolve society like that, everyone knew but no one did anything because it didn't suit Irish society at the time. And it doesn't suit Irish society now to acknowledge it's own failings because you'll end up pointing the finger at complicit parents and grandparents. You really don't think people didn't know who was doing the laundry when the sheets and tablecloths were dropped off at these institutions?

    The churches abuses did not exist in a vacuum. People at the time knew right from wrong, they just didn't care or think these people important. It wasn't the church that made them ignore the abuses, they did that themselves.

    The society at the time carries a certain culpability for that.


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    #3772
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    billyhead wrote: »
    Look I said the Pope will hopefully reform the CC and assist the authorities bring those whom abused children to justice. Just see what happens and get on with your life rather then continuously spouting venomous spiel (we get the message) about the churches failings. You should try to have bit of faith or belief yourself (obviously in your case not following the CC). It might make you a happier person.

    What was venenois in the truth I spoke? The fact that Ireland will noever forget is venemous??? Does the truth hurt you that much that your response is “stop saying bad things because I don’t want to hear them”?

    I am a very happy person. I’d say that I’m happier than any catholic I know. Probably due to not having a weight on my shoulders all the time. No guilt or association with the venomous RCC.


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    #3773
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    billyhead wrote: »
    Theirs no point getting into a discussion on this thread as most people whom post just don't want to hear the argument for people having faith, wanting to see the Pope, going to mass and moving forward and trying to put the negative past failures of the Catholic Church to rest. Someone asked why I wanted to see the Pope in Rome. The answer is I believe in God, my faith is important to me and yes the Pope is supposed to be Gods representative on earth and if he cant get an entry through the pearly gates of heaven know body will. Now to wait for all the negative insulting responses.

    I'll not be negative towards you, but I may be blunt.

    You believe in God. Fine, no problem, but why do you believe in God, and why is it the same God that your parents most likely believe in? Why not the Norse Gods, or the Hindu Gods?

    Your faith is important to you. Fair enough, I get the community of the Church aspect, and the safety of "If I do nice things, I'll be rewarded". But do you have faith in the Catholic Church as an entity, and that it tries to do good things?

    What makes the Pope God's representative on Earth? Why are they trustworthy? If I woke up tomorrow and declared that God spoke to me, a sinner, and he told me to repent, and if I did so, I was to be the leader of the church, for it was part of his plan, I'd be told to piss off. Why do a group of Vatican brass choose who they want to be the gaffer, and why do they often disagree?

    I genuinely have nothing against religious people, it's just not something I believe in. I know many good, religious people, from lay people to ministers. I know some ****ty religious people.


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    #3774
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Trasna1 wrote: »
    Is say that's true up to a point but imagine a world where the abuse scandals hadn't happened. There are many posters here that didn't attend, would any of you have attended had there been no abuse scandals?

    People knew about the laundries (they sent their daughters there), the industrial schools (they left their children there) the abusive priests and all the other horrific abuses of the church at the time and they still went in 79. They might not have known the breadth of it but they did know it was happening. Sure it was still possible to get a flaking from a priest in a school in the year 2000, with most of the scandals uncovered by then and the church has plenty of support at the time.

    Trasna1 wrote: »

    People knew about the laundries

    the industrial schools

    Did they though ?

    How many knew about Aras Attracta ? ever hear anything of it ?


    until someone went to a lot of trouble with a video camera :

    even then, the guilty ones tried to get the footage blocked from court



    Y5Lieqz.jpg

    Ivy McGinty, a resident of Aras Attracta residential care centre.
    Ivy is being dragged around the floor by a staff member.



    QK2tQbc.png


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    #3775
    Sardine
    Site Banned Posts: 210 ✭✭Sardine


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    By that logic if you witness a murder it is your fault for the murder.

    Well they kind of stood idly by. Might make them compliant somewhat because they are the authorities who are supposed to prevent this kind of thing.


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    #3776
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    RobertKK wrote:
    I travel light so it isn't a big deal. I love travel so it is a pleasure and airport security is only a big deal for people who haven't a clue. I do book a window seat in the airplane for the views, and I take pictures, so its all good.


    You claimed it was quicker to get to Rome rather than Dublin from down the country, that's some far out nonsense tbh.


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    #3777
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Sardine wrote:
    In fairness I'd put the blame on the Irish Government and Police more so than the Pope or Vatican in this case. They must have known something yet let these terrors go on.

    So you absolve the perpetrators of the abuse and blame every one else for not stopping them?


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    #3778
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    billyhead wrote:
    Look I said the Pope will hopefully reform the CC and assist the authorities bring those whom abused children to justice. Just see what happens and get on with your life rather then continuously spouting venomous spiel (we get the message) about the churches failings. You should try to have bit of faith or belief yourself (obviously in your case not following the CC). It might make you a happier person.


    He won't, he's 5 years in the job and has done FA to root out the evil in his organisation. We already know he is willing to lie and accuse innocents of slander.


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    #3779
    Sardine
    Site Banned Posts: 210 ✭✭Sardine


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    So you absolve the perpetrators of the abuse and blame every one else for not stopping them?

    Yes :rolleyes:


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    #3780
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Sardine wrote:
    Yes


    Thought so, everyone's fault but the church.


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    #3781
    Dannyriver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    Trasna1 wrote: »
    You really can't absolve society like that, everyone knew but no one did anything because it didn't suit Irish society at the time. And it doesn't suit Irish society now to acknowledge it's own failings because you'll end up pointing the finger at complicit parents and grandparents. You really don't think people didn't know who was doing the laundry when the sheets and tablecloths were dropped off at these institutions?

    The churches abuses did not exist in a vacuum. People at the time knew right from wrong, they just didn't care or think these people important. It wasn't the church that made them ignore the abuses, they did that themselves.

    The society at the time carries a certain culpability for that.

    I haven t 'absolved' anyone, I ve described the power of indoctrination and its ability to fashion group think through fear.

    How did it suit society at the time?

    This isn t all about sheets and tablecloths forced labour is the tip of the ice berg

    They didn t care about these people at the time because a huge majority believed they were fallen women who gave birth to illegitimate children and thus were doing their penance for the mortal sins they commited [see my piece on indoctrination above]

    I think you need to do some research on indoctrination and the power of psychological abuse plus google group think as a psychological construct while you are at it.


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