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So who's going to see the Pope?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭ Baylee Angry Kneecap


    Priests and single people can know about family life but having children and being actively involved in the raising of those children is going to give you an insight into it you never would have gotten otherwise.

    But family life isn't only about raising children. That's the mistake people like you make. You have this limited and non inclusive view of family life. Hardly broad minded.

    Also there are many people raising children who are doing it very badly indeed. Yet people like you would consider them more capable of giving advice on child rearing than people who have worked with young children in schools, at parish activities, have been very involved with and close to young nieces and nephews.

    There are very few people who are experts on raising children well in every way and aspect. But lots of people have a particular view or angle to bring to the table, whether they're parents or not. 'It takes a village to raise a child' is actually a very wise saying, in my view.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭ Benjamin Buttons


    They've studied to become a Catholic priest and therefore I would consider them an expert in matters relating to the provision of moral and spiritual guidance for Catholics.





    If I was having a laugh, I'd have told you a joke, but here's one:


    A young man from Cavan called Ciaran finds himself in dire trouble. His farm has gone bust and he's in serious financial trouble. He's so desperate that he decides to ask God for help. He goes into the Church and begins to pray...........

    "God, please help me, I've lost my Farm and if don't get some money, I'm going to lose my house as well, please let me win the lotto".

    Lotto night comes and somebody else wins it.
    Ciaran goes back to the Church.....................

    "God, please let me win the lotto, I've lost my farm, my house and I'm going to lose my tractor as well".

    Lotto night comes and Ciaran still has no luck!!
    Back to the Church.................

    "My God, why have you forsaken me?? I've lost my Farm, my house, my tractor and my wife and 17 children are starving. I don't often ask you for help and I have always been a good servant to you. Why won't you just let me win the lotto this one time so I can get my life back in order???".

    Suddenly there is a blinding flash of light as the heavens open and Ciaran is confronted by the voice of GOD himself:

    "Ciaran, MEET ME HALF WAY ON THIS ONE, BUY A F**KING TICKET".

    Still think the one about expertise in 'spiritual guidance' is far funnier than the above.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭ kunst nugget


    But family life isn't only about raising children. That's the mistake people like you make. You have this limited and non inclusive view of family life. Hardly broad minded.

    Also there are many people raising children who are doing it very badly indeed. Yet people like you would consider them more capable of giving advice on child rearing than people who have worked with young children in schools, at parish activities, have been very involved with and close to young nieces and nephews.

    There are very few people who are experts on raising children well in every way and aspect. But lots of people have a particular view or angle to bring to the table, whether they're parents or not. 'It takes a village to raise a child' is actually a very wise saying, in my view.

    The village raises our children, we spend time with their cousins, their aunts and uncles and grandparents, we talk to their friends and friends' parents, they play with their local teams, they go to their Girl Guides, do their music lessons and art lessons, we talk to their teachers about how they are getting on and we take advice from all around us. The priest wouldn't get a look in because I wouldn't value his judgement when it comes to family matters. Call me narrow minded if you want in that regard, it's not going to change my opinion on the matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,363 ✭✭✭ Fighting Tao


    But family life isn't only about raising children. That's the mistake people like you make. You have this limited and non inclusive view of family life. Hardly broad minded.

    So anyone who is not religious is a bad parent?

    Also there are many people raising children who are doing it very badly indeed.

    Are those the non religious ones that don’t have any interaction with a priest?

    Yet people like you would consider them more capable of giving advice on child rearing than people who have worked with young children in schools, at parish activities, have been very involved with and close to young nieces and nephews.

    I thought this was about religion and priests and not teachers etc. The horizon is expanding beyond sight now!

    There are very few people who are experts on raising children well in every way and aspect. But lots of people have a particular view or angle to bring to the table, whether they're parents or not. 'It takes a village to raise a child' is actually a very wise saying, in my view.

    So how is a priest going to help me raise my child? Maybe I’m missing something.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭ Baylee Angry Kneecap


    The village raises our children, we spend time with their cousins, their aunts and uncles and grandparents, we talk to their friends and friends' parents, they play with their local teams, they go to their Girl Guides, do their music lessons and art lessons, we talk to their teachers about how they are getting on and we take advice from all around us. The priest wouldn't get a look in because I wouldn't value his judgement when it comes to family matters. Call me narrow minded if you want in that regard, it's not going to change my opinion on the matter.

    Fair enough and if there's a specific priest or even lay person whose views you wouldn't respect on child rearing that's understandable.

    But dismissing anyone who hasn't had children and saying 'what to they know about family life' as some people do is narrow minded and deliberately excluding whole swathes of people from a set up that is about far more than just children.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭ Baylee Angry Kneecap


    So anyone who is not religious is a bad parent?




    Are those the non religious ones that don’t have any interaction with a priest?




    I thought this was about religion and priests and not teachers etc. The horizon is expanding beyond sight now!




    So how is a priest going to help me raise my child? Maybe I’m missing something.

    Yes, that must be it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭ Baylee Angry Kneecap


    So anyone who is not religious is a bad parent?




    Are those the non religious ones that don’t have any interaction with a priest?




    I thought this was about religion and priests and not teachers etc. The horizon is expanding beyond sight now!




    So how is a priest going to help me raise my child? Maybe I’m missing something.

    :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,854 ✭✭✭✭ One eyed Jack


    So anyone who is not religious is a bad parent?


    "So what you're saying is..." :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭ kunst nugget


    Fair enough and if there's a specific priest or even lay person whose views you wouldn't respect on child rearing that's understandable.

    But dismissing anyone who hasn't had children and saying 'what to they know about family life' as some people do is narrow minded and deliberately excluding whole swathes of people from a set up that is about far more than just children.

    Every Wednesday, my mother had two friends call to the house and while my mother tried to get us terrors to bed, the friend that had no children at the time would loudly tell my mother how she was doing it wrong and how if they were her children, they would be up in bed straight away and be asleep within minutes with no back and forth. She adopted a child later when we had grown past our wilder ways and had to concede to our mother that she was talking out of her hole.

    I'm always reminded of that story now that I have my own children. She couldn't fully empathise with the situation because she had no practical real-world experience about it in any way, shape or form, be it personal or professional. It would be like me going up to my next door neighbour and telling her how she should be raising their two autistic children.

    I'm not going to dismiss all single, childless people but unless they have professional training or experience with children, they are going to have very little to offer you when it comes to advice when it comes to raising children and they're not really going to be able to empathise with your situation. Nor would I ever expect them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,282 ✭✭✭ realdanbreen


    Every Wednesday, my mother had two friends call to the house and while my mother tried to get us terrors to bed, the friend that had no children at the time would loudly tell my mother how she was doing it wrong and how if they were her children, they would be up in bed straight away and be asleep within minutes with no back and forth. She adopted a child later when we had grown past our wilder ways and had to concede to our mother that she was talking out of her hole.

    I'm always reminded of that story now that I have my own children. She couldn't fully empathise with the situation because she had no practical real-world experience about it in any way, shape or form, be it personal or professional. It would be like me going up to my next door neighbour and telling her how she should be raising their two autistic children.

    I'm not going to dismiss all single, childless people but unless they have professional training or experience with children, they are going to have very little to offer you when it comes to advice when it comes to raising children and they're not really going to be able to empathise with your situation. Nor would I ever expect them.


    What's any of that to do with the thread, are you going to see the pope or not?:confused:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭ kunst nugget


    What's any of that to do with the thread, are you going to see the pope or not?:confused:

    No, I'm not…

    And you're right. It's dragging the thread off course. I'll leave it at that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,854 ✭✭✭✭ One eyed Jack


    What's any of that to do with the thread, are you going to see the pope or not?:confused:


    To be fair, it's entirely relevant to the thread, as the tickets in question are for the final mass at the World Meeting of Families. It's a very specific example I grant you, but I did admit from my very first reply that contrary to their opinion, being a parent to a child in and of itself does not confer any insight into parenting or family life. It would only give the parent in question insight into how to raise their own child according to their values, morals, beliefs or world view. In the case of the WMOF, that view is from a Catholic perspective of family life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,241 ✭✭✭ nozzferrahhtoo


    You're ripping things out of context there nozz. Kunst's point was that priests wouldn't really be in any position to give advice with regard to raising children, and my point was that there was nothing precluding them from giving such advice, and certainly not by virtue of the fact that they weren't parents themselves.

    Not taking ANYTHING out of context no. I was addressing directly the comparison between priests and surgeons.

    Your comparison was based on the idea that it would be ridiculous to suggest a surgeon could not be trusted with a hip operation having never had one themselves.

    The suggestion being that a priest never having had a wife and children himself does not mean he is precluded from being capable of offering advice on the subject.

    Which I agree with. It does not. But you then went on to talk about how priests "observe" families in their own and other cultures, and my point is this renders the comparison ridiculous. Because you likely WOULD NOT trust a surgeon to perform a hip operation if his expertise was upon interacting with people who themselves had had one.

    In other words personal experience has NOTHING to do with it, in either case. Or at least it should not. Interacting with people who are in families, does not qualify you to offer useful advice on the subject any more than interacting with people who have had hip operations qualifies you to perform one yourself.

    In BOTH cases what should be relevant when evaluating how credibly one can take the skills being offered (whether family counselling, or hip operations) is not personal experience of being in a family or having had a hip operation, or having interacted with people who have either............. but on what study and qualifications and learning the person in question has received to do either of these things.

    I would say Kunst's issue therefore revolves not solely around the priest lacking the relevant personal experience to give such advice. But that he lacks that experience AND everything else that might qualify him to offer such advice. As such you would probably be better off asking a random joe soap off the street for such advice given they are likely to be in such a family, where a priest is not.

    So it is not that the priest lacks personal experience and so he has got nothing. Rather he has got nothing anyway AND to compound that he ALSO lacks the relevant personal experience too which might mediate his otherwise having nothing.

    And comparing ANY of that to a surgeon is where it got ridiculous because perhaps the surgeon does lack the experience of having had a hip operation, but he has all the training, qualifications and tried and tested industry standards behind him to do his job. The priest is just a guy. A guy you claim may have interacted with some people, some time, on some stuff.

    The comparison is, was and remains ridiculous. And none of the rebuttal to it is "out of context" as you falsely claim.
    However, just as I would not visit my priest to ask him to perform hip surgery, I wouldn't visit my orthopaedic consultant for moral and spiritual guidance.

    Well we were talking about giving specifically family advice. So I guess speak for yourself. The two of them have the same qualifications to give advice on the subject (that is to say: none) but at least one of them is likely to have relevant direct experience (the surgeon). So if I was going to randomly ask someone for family advice, and I was presented with two options neither of whom have any training or qualifications on the subject, then I would personally choose the one who actually had some experience.

    NEITHER of them are experts in that field, the priest or the surgeon, but at least one of them has SOME first hand experience.
    You didn't understand the comparison so you think it's invalid. You're probably acutely aware by now that your opinion is worth nothing to me, which renders anything you have to say on the matter, invalid.

    As I have explained to you many times in the past, not agreeing with you != not understanding you. Though I reckon you merely made the error again in order to slip in a pointless personal comment like the one above. However what you appear to NOT be acutely aware of by now, despite me telling you multiple times, when I express my opinion in your direction like here I am not doing it to you, for you, or for your benefit anyway.

    However your last words there are false. An opinion meaning nothing to YOU does not render what I say invalid. Invalid TO YOU maybe, but not invalid in and of itself. Where did you get the idea that an opinion on a subject is rendered invalid if it has no value to YOU? What a weirdly egotistical and arrogant thing to proclaim.
    They've studied to become a Catholic priest and therefore I would consider them an expert in matters relating to the provision of moral and spiritual guidance for Catholics.

    You have run off with the goal posts here though as "matters relating to the provision of moral and spiritual guidance for Catholics" was not what was being discussed AT ALL in this thread of the conversation. The original root of the current conversation was about families, having children, and the stresses and strains of that. And the priest giving advice on such a subject when he has no experience of it.

    It was nothing to do with "spiritual guidance" or Catholic beliefs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,282 ✭✭✭ realdanbreen


    No, I'm not…

    And you're right. It's dragging the thread off course. I'll leave it at that.

    Why are so many people being civil towards me:mad: I'm used to posters (particularly the atheists) trying to insult me!


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,854 ✭✭✭✭ One eyed Jack


    As I have explained to you many times in the past, not agreeing with you != not understanding you. Though I reckon you merely made the error again in order to slip in a pointless personal comment like the one above. However what you appear to NOT be acutely aware of by now, despite me telling you multiple times, when I express my opinion in your direction like here I am not doing it to you, for you, or for your benefit anyway.


    I know, what you're doing is called soapboxing, preaching to the converted as it were.

    Good for you.

    However your last words there are false. An opinion meaning nothing to YOU does not render what I say invalid. Invalid TO YOU maybe, but not invalid in and of itself. Where did you get the idea that an opinion on a subject is rendered invalid if it has no value to YOU? What a weirdly egotistical and arrogant thing to proclaim.


    Well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,277 ✭✭✭✭ Calliope Deafening Sheet


    And Scots!

    Naww, their too busy peeling oranges in their pockets to be able to spare another hand to get tickets


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,241 ✭✭✭ nozzferrahhtoo


    Well that was a reply to pretty much nothing I wrote.
    I know, what you're doing is called soapboxing, preaching to the converted as it were. Good for you.

    Nope. But once again you go psychic (while projecting that on to others) rather than ask people what their motivations and agendas are.

    All too often when it suits you, rather than ask people why they do something you simply presume to tell them why they are doing it. On this thread for example you decided peoples motivations were just "spite" rather than actually asking them.

    And here you do it again, presuming (falsely) that I want to soapbox to the converted rather than actually asking me why I do it. Were I to be asked, I would answer, entirely openly and honestly.
    Well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black :pac:

    Not at all really, but you do contrive to project on occasion. The only one who goes personal here is you. It was uncalled for, but you never miss an opportunity to do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,964 ✭✭✭✭ Omackeral


    So tasteful

    DhAoYyrW4AICVds.jpg


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 Taytoland


    Will be interesting to see how many Irish go to see him. The people who will care and comment most will be Atheists.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭ FingerDeKat


    ^^creepy fukker


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,942 ✭✭✭ mikeym


    I wish I could go but the tickets were all snapped up :eek::(:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,363 ✭✭✭ Fighting Tao


    Tickets still available. Can’t even give them away.

    So all the moaning about denying people tickets looks to be a load of bollocks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,075 ✭✭✭ IamtheWalrus


    When is the asshole going?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,602 Hitman3000


    mikeym wrote:
    I wish I could go but the tickets were all snapped up


    Nah, still 20,000 left.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,737 ✭✭✭✭ Graces7


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Nah, still 20,000 left.

    The tickets for Knock were all snapped up, not the Mass ones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,363 ✭✭✭ Fighting Tao


    Graces7 wrote: »
    The tickets for Knock were all snapped up, not the Mass ones.

    It kind of proves that most in Ireland are cultural Catholics. Couldn’t even be arsed turning up for a once in a lifetime opportunity to see their leader say mass.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,602 Hitman3000


    Graces7 wrote:
    The tickets for Knock were all snapped up, not the Mass ones.


    Is there 20 k available Yes or No?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,363 ✭✭✭ Fighting Tao


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Is there 20 k available Yes or No?

    :eek:
    Expecting an answer?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,602 Hitman3000


    Expecting an answer?


    No, not really. She normally drops a one liner and disappears again.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,737 ✭✭✭✭ Graces7


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Is there 20 k available Yes or No?

    If they say so..and manners please!


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