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Ireland 2040 Planning Framework & associated Investment Plan discussion [NO ROADS]

  • 16-02-2018 2:50pm
    #1
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Revealed at 2pm today.

    For discussion of the plan itself and investment alongside it. No roads discussion - discuss roads in the Roads forum.

    Civil discussion only.


«13456

Comments

  • #2
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Not a great start

    http://npf.ie/about/
    Our website is currently undergoing maintenance in preparation for the launch of Project Ireland 2040 later today.

    Thank you for your patience. We are doing some work on the site and will be back shortly.

    In the interim you can find more information on Project Ireland 2040 at the following link: www.gov.ie


  • #3
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    This should be interesting. So far, they've been making all the right noises, and in particular, they've stated that they want this to last regardless of political change, with an independent regulator to ensure that it continues post government change. Probably impossible to bullet proof everything, but it would be great if the major elements of the plan survive a change in government.

    I've long believed that the major problem in Ireland has been in the inability to stick to a plan, so hopefully this goes some way to fixing it.


  • #4
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Not a great start

    http://npf.ie/about/

    In fairness, it only needs to work at 2pm. They've still got time......

    Tick tock.


  • #5
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,528 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    You can view it here.


  • #6
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    You can view it here.

    Hmm 10 plans but 9 links as one of them is a "dup".


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  • #7
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,528 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Here are the direct links:

    Executive Summary

    National Development Plan

    National Planning Framework


  • #8
    thomasj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭thomasj


    for public transport plans page 53 onwards of the National Development plan.


  • #9
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    or

    http://www.gov.ie/en/project-ireland-2040/


  • #10
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Metro North is now Metro Link, and the DART expansion is essentially DART Underground minus the interconnector tunnel. If they can manage to get all that done by 2027, an awful lot of the commuter issues into Dublin will be sorted, and the case for creating the Interconnector tunnel will be impossible to ignore.

    The bus networks for Galway, Cork and Dublin also look good and realistic.

    I'll read the rest of it in a while, but those parts are very well put together for me.


  • #11
    thomasj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭thomasj


    the estimated completion date for BusConnects........:eek:


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  • #12
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    When ye get through it, can you tell me if :

    We are banning one-off housing?

    Are we being serious about developing the regional cities or are we just going to throw infrastructure at Cork because it's currently the second largest city?

    Are there any significant rail projects in there?


  • #13
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    thomasj wrote: »
    the estimated completion date for BusConnects........:eek:

    Seems like nearly everything has a completion date of 2027. I'd hazard a guess that this is a bit of political play, i.e. "We've managed to complete the Galway Bus Connects 5 years early!!!"

    At least, that's what I hope......


  • #14
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,528 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Seems like nearly everything has a completion date of 2027. I'd hazard a guess that this is a bit of political play, i.e. "We've managed to complete the Galway Bus Connects 5 years early!!!"

    At least, that's what I hope......

    Yeah - or more so to prevent them from being accused of not delivering on time.


  • #15
    Pixel Eater
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Pixel Eater


    Am I reading that right, Metro North but no DART Underground?


  • #16
    funnyname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭funnyname


    Just tried watching the announcement on rte news now but listening to Heather Humphreys makes watch pain dry seem like the most exciting thing on earth.


  • #17
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    Am I reading that right, Metro North but no DART Underground?
    DART to Hazelhatch, Drogheda and Maynooth (€2bn allocation) but no tunnel.

    Metro Swords-Sandyford is included.


  • #18
    thomasj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    Am I reading that right, Metro North but no DART Underground?

    post 2027 for the tunnel


  • #19
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    A 50% pro rata population increase in the regional cities is a real blunder anyway. It ignores the fact that it might make more sense to develop Galway or Limerick to a greater extent than Cork.


  • #20
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    A 50% pro rata population increase in the regional cities is a real blunder anyway. It ignores the fact that it might make more sense to develop Galway or Limerick to a greater extent than Cork.


  • #21
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    zulutango wrote: »
    A 50% pro rata population increase in the regional cities is a real blunder anyway. It ignores the fact that it might make more sense to develop Galway or Limerick to a greater extent than Cork.
    Why?


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  • #22
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    zulutango wrote: »
    When ye get through it, can you tell me if :

    We are banning one-off housing?

    Are we being serious about developing the regional cities or are we just going to throw infrastructure at Cork because it's currently the second largest city?

    Are there any significant rail projects in there?

    Outside of Metro Link and DART Expansion, no. That was always going to be the case though, despite the hopes of the Western Rail Corridor supporters. There's always going to be something that more cost efficient than a project like that.


  • #23
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Outside of Metro Link and DART Expansion, no. That was always going to be the case though, despite the hopes of the Western Rail Corridor supporters. There's always going to be something that more cost efficient than a project like that.
    There is a part about the potential of the Navan line and Western Rail Corridor if either reach demand states during the lifetime of the plan.


  • #24
    Pixel Eater
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Pixel Eater


    marno21 wrote: »
    DART to Hazelhatch, Drogheda and Maynooth (€2bn allocation) but no tunnel.

    Metro Swords-Sandyford is included.
    thomasj wrote: »
    post 2027 for the tunnel

    Would've thought the DART Underground (tunnel) was a bigger priority than the Metro North. Will just run the Maynooth DART via the Pheonix Park tunnel then so?


  • #25
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    marno21 wrote: »
    Why?

    Why what exactly?


  • #26
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    So Dublin might get a few bits of new public transport infrastructure in a decade's time, quite a bit which duplicates existing lines. No new LUAS lines. No Dart underground. No station at Stephen's Green per the IT.

    Meanwhile 3/4 of the population growth is forecast for outside Dublin, which is rubbish.

    This plan is a handout to rural politicians - Dublin has ground to a halt this year.


  • #27
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    zulutango wrote: »

    Are there any significant rail projects in there?

    This
    an examination of opportunities for improvements in journey times and investment in high-speed rail links between Belfast, Dublin and Cork


  • #28
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    hmmm wrote: »
    So Dublin might get a few bits of new public transport infrastructure in a decade's time, quite a bit which duplicates existing lines. No new LUAS lines. No Dart underground. No station at Stephen's Green per the IT.

    Meanwhile 3/4 of the population growth is forecast for outside Dublin, which is rubbish.

    This plan is a handout to rural politicians - Dublin has ground to a halt this year.

    Bus Connects (1 bl) , 4 new luas lines/extensions (2 bl???),MN (3 bl), DART (2 bl) . What more do you want barring DU? That's circa 8 BL in 10 years if my guesstimates on the Luas costs hold up


  • #29
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    hmmm wrote: »
    Meanwhile 3/4 of the population growth is forecast for outside Dublin, which is rubbish.

    Why is that rubbish?


  • #30
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    zulutango wrote: »
    A 50% pro rata population increase in the regional cities is a real blunder anyway. It ignores the fact that it might make more sense to develop Galway or Limerick to a greater extent than Cork.

    based on what?


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  • #31
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Bus Connects , 4 new luas lines/extensions ,MN, DART . What more do you want barring DU?
    Bus Connects is already apparently funded, and we now get a date of 2027 before it's completed.

    The plan says no money for new LUAS lines. Lots of feasibility studies. Yes it's feasible, we don't need to wait until 2027 to find this out.

    Metro North is new, but we've been hearing about this forever.

    Extension of DART all over the countryside isn't going to help Dublin commuters much.


  • #32
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    zulutango wrote: »
    Why is that rubbish?

    because it's not going to happen

    it's like king Canut trying to hold back the tide


  • #33
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,236 ✭✭✭Dr. Kenneth Noisewater


    zulutango wrote: »
    When ye get through it, can you tell me if :

    We are banning one-off housing?

    Yes, the Government has completely banned one-off housing, effective immediately, despite the fact that there is absolutely nobody building housing in most urban centres outside of the cities.


  • #34
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,819 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    zulutango wrote: »
    When ye get through it, can you tell me if :

    We are banning one-off housing?

    Are we being serious about developing the regional cities or are we just going to throw infrastructure at Cork because it's currently the second largest city?

    Are there any significant rail projects in there?


    No. Initially if you could provide an economic reason/necessity, then one off housing would be permitted.


    Then they bowed to public pressure and relented on the requiirements.
    Normal service has resumed.


  • #35
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,819 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »
    Yes, the Government has completely banned one-off housing, effective immediately, despite the fact that there is absolutely nobody building housing in most urban centres outside of the cities.

    If true that is a surprise, as Fitmaurice I think was on earlier saying the opposite.


  • #36
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Looking at the map on the report, the Lucan Luas looks like a new line rather then an extension of the red line. Looks to be heading up Dame St.


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  • #37
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    lawred2 wrote: »
    because it's not going to happen

    it's like king Canut trying to hold back the tide

    You don't think policy and infrastructure development effects where growth occurs. Ok then ...


  • #38
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    hmmm wrote: »
    Bus Connects is already apparently funded, and we now get a date of 2027 before it's completed.

    The plan says no money for new LUAS lines. Lots of feasibility studies. Yes it's feasible, we don't need to wait until 2027 to find this out.

    Metro North is new, but we've been hearing about this forever.

    Extension of DART all over the countryside isn't going to help Dublin commuters much.

    Bus Connects funding appears to have doubled , everything has 2027 completion date that or post 2027. I don't think 2027 is the actual expected date. Lots of commuters live all over the countryside as you call it . Also if the high-frequency (more than 10 minutes) is delivered the DART would actually be useful.


  • #39
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    marno21 wrote: »
    There is a part about the potential of the Navan line and Western Rail Corridor if either reach demand states during the lifetime of the plan.

    Hmmm.... Yes, the WRC stage 2 is to go to an independent review, as part of the Programme for Government.

    I'd still think that anything beyond what's actually approved and in this plan is not going to happen. Perhaps after 2027, but I think that there won't be any minor additions to the plan, never mind major changes.


  • #40
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,899 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    Would've thought the DART Underground (tunnel) was a bigger priority than the Metro North. Will just run the Maynooth DART via the Pheonix Park tunnel then so?

    The Celbridge DART you mean

    It does commit to establishing DU and making sure route protected for future work


  • #41
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    zulutango wrote: »
    You don't think policy and infrastructure development effects where growth occurs. Ok then ...

    Not particularly, there is a great deal of research in urban planning now that cities largely grow organically.

    Your largest city drives what happens with your other cities and economy overall. If your largest city does well, everyone else does to. But almost all plans to stop large cities from growing have completely failed.


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  • #42
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,236 ✭✭✭Dr. Kenneth Noisewater


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    If true that is a surprise, as Fitmaurice I think was on earlier saying the opposite.

    Sorry, I was being tongue in cheek.


  • #43
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,252 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    Is there any mention anywhere of improvement/ upgrading of the N52 between Kells and Mullingar? Truely awful road.


  • #44
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    bk wrote: »
    Not particularly, there is a great deal of research in urban planning now that cities largely grow organically.

    Your largest city drives what happens with your other cities and economy overall. If your largest city does well, everyone else does to. But almost all plans to stop large cities from growing have completely failed.

    Can you link me to that research? And can you give me examples of where plans to stop growth of large cities didn't fail?


  • #45
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    joeysoap wrote: »
    Is there any mention anywhere of improvement/ upgrading of the N52 between Kells and Mullingar? Truely awful road.
    There is a 6km stretch of N52 progressing through the planning stages to start in the next 2 years or so, beside the existing section that's being realigned at the minute. It's outside the scope of this plan though.


  • #46
    nuac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    6.11 provides that HQs of new State Agencies be located in the regions. Any exception to be approved by DE.

    This requirement should have been extended to all existing publicly funded agencies and parts of Government Departments.

    They should use modern communication methods e.g. Skype rather than face to face meetings - saving time, energy and expenses


  • #47
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    Would've thought the DART Underground (tunnel) was a bigger priority than the Metro North. Will just run the Maynooth DART via the Pheonix Park tunnel then so?

    Appears to be a softly , softly approach 2 BL being spent on the DART now. 1.5 of that can probably come off the price tag of DU , bring it to a much for reasonable 3.5 BL price tag?

    PS also when the DART runs far outside Dublin the government of the day will be able to make the case of in the national interest much easier


  • #48
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Appears to be a softly , softly approach 2 BL being spent on the DART now. 1.5 of that can probably come off the price tag of DU , bring it to a much for reasonable 3.5 BL price tag?

    My hope reading the plan is that this is what is happening and that DU will be completely outside of this plan to stop rural interference.


  • #49
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    zulutango wrote: »
    Can you link me to that research? And can you give me examples of where plans to stop growth of large cities didn't fail?

    Here is a great intro video to cities growing organically:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvAvHjYoLUU


  • #50
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Honestly, I think that Dublin came out of this about as well as it could, given the economic and political realities.

    Hopefully now there isn't a massive political backlash against it, as it actually seems like a solid, and possibly more importantly, realistic plan.


  • #51
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    bk wrote: »
    Here is a great intro video to cities growing organically:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvAvHjYoLUU

    It's a good video and I'm a few minutes into it, and it actually doesn't back up your claim. It says that cities by and large grow organically, without external influences. And then it goes on to explain how external influences can change the rank of cities. One example it gives is Washington DC where the nascent US government decided to seat its government. And there are heaps of such examples. I'll keep watching ..


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