Ireland 2040 Planning Framework & associated Investment Plan discussion [NO ROADS]

marno21

Revealed at 2pm today.

For discussion of the plan itself and investment alongside it. No roads discussion - discuss roads in the Roads forum.

Civil discussion only.

Harry Palmr

Not a great start

http://npf.ie/about/

Our website is currently undergoing maintenance in preparation for the launch of Project Ireland 2040 later today.

Thank you for your patience. We are doing some work on the site and will be back shortly.

In the interim you can find more information on Project Ireland 2040 at the following link: www.gov.ie

CatInABox

This should be interesting. So far, they've been making all the right noises, and in particular, they've stated that they want this to last regardless of political change, with an independent regulator to ensure that it continues post government change. Probably impossible to bullet proof everything, but it would be great if the major elements of the plan survive a change in government.

I've long believed that the major problem in Ireland has been in the inability to stick to a plan, so hopefully this goes some way to fixing it.

CatInABox

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Not a great start

http://npf.ie/about/

In fairness, it only needs to work at 2pm. They've still got time......

Tick tock.

Sierra Oscar

You can view it here.

Harry Palmr

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

You can view it here.

Hmm 10 plans but 9 links as one of them is a "dup".

Sierra Oscar

Here are the direct links:

Executive Summary

National Development Plan

National Planning Framework

thomasj

for public transport plans page 53 onwards of the National Development plan.

plodder

or

http://www.gov.ie/en/project-ireland-2040/

CatInABox

Metro North is now Metro Link, and the DART expansion is essentially DART Underground minus the interconnector tunnel. If they can manage to get all that done by 2027, an awful lot of the commuter issues into Dublin will be sorted, and the case for creating the Interconnector tunnel will be impossible to ignore.

The bus networks for Galway, Cork and Dublin also look good and realistic.

I'll read the rest of it in a while, but those parts are very well put together for me.

thomasj

the estimated completion date for BusConnects........:eek:

zulutango

When ye get through it, can you tell me if :

We are banning one-off housing?

Are we being serious about developing the regional cities or are we just going to throw infrastructure at Cork because it's currently the second largest city?

Are there any significant rail projects in there?

CatInABox

thomasj wrote: »

the estimated completion date for BusConnects........:eek:

Seems like nearly everything has a completion date of 2027. I'd hazard a guess that this is a bit of political play, i.e. "We've managed to complete the Galway Bus Connects 5 years early!!!"

At least, that's what I hope......

Sierra Oscar

CatInABox wrote: »

Seems like nearly everything has a completion date of 2027. I'd hazard a guess that this is a bit of political play, i.e. "We've managed to complete the Galway Bus Connects 5 years early!!!"

At least, that's what I hope......

Yeah - or more so to prevent them from being accused of not delivering on time.

Pixel Eater

Am I reading that right, Metro North but no DART Underground?

funnyname

Just tried watching the announcement on rte news now but listening to Heather Humphreys makes watch pain dry seem like the most exciting thing on earth.

marno21

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Am I reading that right, Metro North but no DART Underground?

DART to Hazelhatch, Drogheda and Maynooth (€2bn allocation) but no tunnel.

Metro Swords-Sandyford is included.

thomasj

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Am I reading that right, Metro North but no DART Underground?

post 2027 for the tunnel

zulutango

A 50% pro rata population increase in the regional cities is a real blunder anyway. It ignores the fact that it might make more sense to develop Galway or Limerick to a greater extent than Cork.

zulutango

A 50% pro rata population increase in the regional cities is a real blunder anyway. It ignores the fact that it might make more sense to develop Galway or Limerick to a greater extent than Cork.

marno21

zulutango wrote: »

A 50% pro rata population increase in the regional cities is a real blunder anyway. It ignores the fact that it might make more sense to develop Galway or Limerick to a greater extent than Cork.

Why?

CatInABox

zulutango wrote: »

When ye get through it, can you tell me if :

We are banning one-off housing?

Are we being serious about developing the regional cities or are we just going to throw infrastructure at Cork because it's currently the second largest city?

Are there any significant rail projects in there?

Outside of Metro Link and DART Expansion, no. That was always going to be the case though, despite the hopes of the Western Rail Corridor supporters. There's always going to be something that more cost efficient than a project like that.

marno21

CatInABox wrote: »

Outside of Metro Link and DART Expansion, no. That was always going to be the case though, despite the hopes of the Western Rail Corridor supporters. There's always going to be something that more cost efficient than a project like that.

There is a part about the potential of the Navan line and Western Rail Corridor if either reach demand states during the lifetime of the plan.

Pixel Eater

marno21 wrote: »

DART to Hazelhatch, Drogheda and Maynooth (€2bn allocation) but no tunnel.

Metro Swords-Sandyford is included.

thomasj wrote: »

post 2027 for the tunnel

Would've thought the DART Underground (tunnel) was a bigger priority than the Metro North. Will just run the Maynooth DART via the Pheonix Park tunnel then so?

zulutango

marno21 wrote: »

Why?

Why what exactly?

hmmm

So Dublin might get a few bits of new public transport infrastructure in a decade's time, quite a bit which duplicates existing lines. No new LUAS lines. No Dart underground. No station at Stephen's Green per the IT.

Meanwhile 3/4 of the population growth is forecast for outside Dublin, which is rubbish.

This plan is a handout to rural politicians - Dublin has ground to a halt this year.

LeinsterDub

zulutango wrote: »

Are there any significant rail projects in there?

This

an examination of opportunities for improvements in journey times and investment in high-speed rail links between Belfast, Dublin and Cork

LeinsterDub

hmmm wrote: »

So Dublin might get a few bits of new public transport infrastructure in a decade's time, quite a bit which duplicates existing lines. No new LUAS lines. No Dart underground. No station at Stephen's Green per the IT.

Meanwhile 3/4 of the population growth is forecast for outside Dublin, which is rubbish.

This plan is a handout to rural politicians - Dublin has ground to a halt this year.

Bus Connects (1 bl) , 4 new luas lines/extensions (2 bl???),MN (3 bl), DART (2 bl) . What more do you want barring DU? That's circa 8 BL in 10 years if my guesstimates on the Luas costs hold up

zulutango

hmmm wrote: »

Meanwhile 3/4 of the population growth is forecast for outside Dublin, which is rubbish.

Why is that rubbish?

lawred2

zulutango wrote: »

A 50% pro rata population increase in the regional cities is a real blunder anyway. It ignores the fact that it might make more sense to develop Galway or Limerick to a greater extent than Cork.

based on what?

hmmm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Bus Connects , 4 new luas lines/extensions ,MN, DART . What more do you want barring DU?

Bus Connects is already apparently funded, and we now get a date of 2027 before it's completed.

The plan says no money for new LUAS lines. Lots of feasibility studies. Yes it's feasible, we don't need to wait until 2027 to find this out.

Metro North is new, but we've been hearing about this forever.

Extension of DART all over the countryside isn't going to help Dublin commuters much.

lawred2

zulutango wrote: »

Why is that rubbish?

because it's not going to happen

it's like king Canut trying to hold back the tide

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

zulutango wrote: »

When ye get through it, can you tell me if :

We are banning one-off housing?

Yes, the Government has completely banned one-off housing, effective immediately, despite the fact that there is absolutely nobody building housing in most urban centres outside of the cities.

Fann Linn

zulutango wrote: »

When ye get through it, can you tell me if :

We are banning one-off housing?

Are we being serious about developing the regional cities or are we just going to throw infrastructure at Cork because it's currently the second largest city?

Are there any significant rail projects in there?

No. Initially if you could provide an economic reason/necessity, then one off housing would be permitted.


Then they bowed to public pressure and relented on the requiirements.
Normal service has resumed.

Fann Linn

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Yes, the Government has completely banned one-off housing, effective immediately, despite the fact that there is absolutely nobody building housing in most urban centres outside of the cities.

If true that is a surprise, as Fitmaurice I think was on earlier saying the opposite.

bk

Looking at the map on the report, the Lucan Luas looks like a new line rather then an extension of the red line. Looks to be heading up Dame St.

zulutango

lawred2 wrote: »

because it's not going to happen

it's like king Canut trying to hold back the tide

You don't think policy and infrastructure development effects where growth occurs. Ok then ...

LeinsterDub

hmmm wrote: »

Bus Connects is already apparently funded, and we now get a date of 2027 before it's completed.

The plan says no money for new LUAS lines. Lots of feasibility studies. Yes it's feasible, we don't need to wait until 2027 to find this out.

Metro North is new, but we've been hearing about this forever.

Extension of DART all over the countryside isn't going to help Dublin commuters much.

Bus Connects funding appears to have doubled , everything has 2027 completion date that or post 2027. I don't think 2027 is the actual expected date. Lots of commuters live all over the countryside as you call it . Also if the high-frequency (more than 10 minutes) is delivered the DART would actually be useful.

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

There is a part about the potential of the Navan line and Western Rail Corridor if either reach demand states during the lifetime of the plan.

Hmmm.... Yes, the WRC stage 2 is to go to an independent review, as part of the Programme for Government.

I'd still think that anything beyond what's actually approved and in this plan is not going to happen. Perhaps after 2027, but I think that there won't be any minor additions to the plan, never mind major changes.

Riskymove

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Would've thought the DART Underground (tunnel) was a bigger priority than the Metro North. Will just run the Maynooth DART via the Pheonix Park tunnel then so?

The Celbridge DART you mean

It does commit to establishing DU and making sure route protected for future work

bk

zulutango wrote: »

You don't think policy and infrastructure development effects where growth occurs. Ok then ...

Not particularly, there is a great deal of research in urban planning now that cities largely grow organically.

Your largest city drives what happens with your other cities and economy overall. If your largest city does well, everyone else does to. But almost all plans to stop large cities from growing have completely failed.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Fann Linn wrote: »

If true that is a surprise, as Fitmaurice I think was on earlier saying the opposite.

Sorry, I was being tongue in cheek.

joeysoap

Is there any mention anywhere of improvement/ upgrading of the N52 between Kells and Mullingar? Truely awful road.

zulutango

bk wrote: »

Not particularly, there is a great deal of research in urban planning now that cities largely grow organically.

Your largest city drives what happens with your other cities and economy overall. If your largest city does well, everyone else does to. But almost all plans to stop large cities from growing have completely failed.

Can you link me to that research? And can you give me examples of where plans to stop growth of large cities didn't fail?

marno21

joeysoap wrote: »

Is there any mention anywhere of improvement/ upgrading of the N52 between Kells and Mullingar? Truely awful road.

There is a 6km stretch of N52 progressing through the planning stages to start in the next 2 years or so, beside the existing section that's being realigned at the minute. It's outside the scope of this plan though.

nuac

6.11 provides that HQs of new State Agencies be located in the regions. Any exception to be approved by DE.

This requirement should have been extended to all existing publicly funded agencies and parts of Government Departments.

They should use modern communication methods e.g. Skype rather than face to face meetings - saving time, energy and expenses

LeinsterDub

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Would've thought the DART Underground (tunnel) was a bigger priority than the Metro North. Will just run the Maynooth DART via the Pheonix Park tunnel then so?

Appears to be a softly , softly approach 2 BL being spent on the DART now. 1.5 of that can probably come off the price tag of DU , bring it to a much for reasonable 3.5 BL price tag?

PS also when the DART runs far outside Dublin the government of the day will be able to make the case of in the national interest much easier

BonnieSituation

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Appears to be a softly , softly approach 2 BL being spent on the DART now. 1.5 of that can probably come off the price tag of DU , bring it to a much for reasonable 3.5 BL price tag?

My hope reading the plan is that this is what is happening and that DU will be completely outside of this plan to stop rural interference.

bk

zulutango wrote: »

Can you link me to that research? And can you give me examples of where plans to stop growth of large cities didn't fail?

Here is a great intro video to cities growing organically:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvAvHjYoLUU

CatInABox

Honestly, I think that Dublin came out of this about as well as it could, given the economic and political realities.

Hopefully now there isn't a massive political backlash against it, as it actually seems like a solid, and possibly more importantly, realistic plan.

zulutango

bk wrote: »

Here is a great intro video to cities growing organically:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvAvHjYoLUU

It's a good video and I'm a few minutes into it, and it actually doesn't back up your claim. It says that cities by and large grow organically, without external influences. And then it goes on to explain how external influences can change the rank of cities. One example it gives is Washington DC where the nascent US government decided to seat its government. And there are heaps of such examples. I'll keep watching ..