Ireland 2040 Planning Framework & associated Investment Plan discussion [NO ROADS]

marno21

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-02-20a.451

Statements on Project 2040 yesterday. The phrase "western rail corridor" is mentioned twice, whilst the phrase "dart underground" or even "dart" is not mentioned (nor the word "interconnector").

ED E

Deedsie wrote: »

Was there any mention of an investment in expressway bus services? Any new buses etc? New technology? Leap card capability etc

Thats operational details, not really something that should feature in a 25 year plan.

Leonard Hofstadter

ED E wrote: »

Thats operational details, not really something that should feature in a 25 year plan.

In any event Expressway is commercial and not funded by the taxpayer.

marno21

Shane Ross redefining ambition in a written answer today

Shane Ross wrote:

The NDP also commits to a full mid-term review of the Plan in 2022, to allow Government to take stock of progress in terms of delivery of the planned projects and programmes, and to allow Government to review and reaffirm its investment priorities. It is envisaged that the review will be carried out in order to prepare and publish a new updated 10-year plan for public capital investment in 2023, covering the period 2023 to 2032.

roadmaster

A pipe dream?

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/06/26/4157997-call-for-feasibility-stud/

AlmightyCushion

roadmaster wrote: »

A pipe dream?

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/06/26/4157997-call-for-feasibility-stud/

“The re-opening of the Kingscourt to Dublin line would not only provide a new and improved commuting option for the hundreds of people who travel from Cavan and Monaghan to the capital every day, it would also offer businesses and companies alternative transport options.”

Going by this feck all people would use it so hopefully not.

Peregrine

roadmaster wrote: »

A pipe dream?

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/06/26/4157997-call-for-feasibility-stud/

Yes

marno21

There will be a feasibility study undertaken in the NDP on reopening M3 Parkway-Navan (even though it has been severely cannibalised by the M3). Navan would be the terminus here and extending it beyond Navan is out of the question.

I can't see there ever being passenger trains on the Kingscourt branch again. It'll likely be abandoned and possibly "greenwayed".

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

There will be a feasibility study undertaken in the NDP on reopening M3 Parkway-Navan (even though it has been severely cannibalised by the M3). Navan would be the terminus here and extending it beyond Navan is out of the question.

I can't see there ever being passenger trains on the Kingscourt branch again. It'll likely be abandoned and possibly "greenwayed".

Despite the M3 being amazing, a train to Navan would make sense, as Navan is a large commuter town. A frequent train service into a Dublin would take an awful lot of cars off the road.

Think they'd expand the Dart all the way to Navan as well?

marno21

CatInABox wrote: »

Despite the M3 being amazing, a train to Navan would make sense, as Navan is a large commuter town. A frequent train service into a Dublin would take an awful lot of cars off the road.

Think they'd expand the Dart all the way to Navan as well?

"The M3 being amazing" is an excellent summation of the situation. Where the M3 ends at Clonee and becomes the N3 means you go from 120km/h running on the motorway to chronic congestion, both on the Navan Road inbound and the M50.

Going forward this will only get worse even with the planned widening to 3 lanes from Clonee to the M50 interchange.

Qrt

Are there tracks after M3 Parkway? I know the Navan-Drogheda line is operational.

CatInABox

Qrt wrote: »

Are there tracks after M3 Parkway? I know the Navan-Drogheda line is operational.

No, actually. I had thought that there was for some reason.

roadmaster

CatInABox wrote: »

No, actually. I had thought that there was for some reason.

On the trim link road off the M3 there appears to be what looks like an old railway line the way the fencing is set out. Ill try get a pic tomorrow

BonnieSituation

CatInABox wrote: »

No, actually. I had thought that there was for some reason.

The Route for the M3 cuts across the old route after Parkway. you can see it clearly on google Maps and from the road.

Qrt

roadmaster wrote: »

Ill try get a pic tomorrow

That would be much appreciated:)

CatInABox

roadmaster wrote: »

On the trim link road off the M3 there appears to be what looks like an old railway line the way the fencing is set out. Ill try get a pic tomorrow

Yeah, I found and followed the route on Google maps this morning, there's tracks there, but about half of it has been removed. Worse still is that there's been a fair amount of building on the lines, from farm sheds, to roads, all the way up to a housing estate.

Any study will most likely find that there'd need to be tons of CPO involved, or a new route. In that case, they'd probably cheap out on building a bridge over the M3 into Navan, so they'd probably make it a Park and Ride at one of the M3 roundabouts there.

marno21

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2018-07-10a.328

Reading this is a refreshing change from the days under Enda Kenny where capital investment, unless it related to the road from Dublin to Mayo, was seen as something advocated by a think tank under the supervision of Satan.

ncounties

I have seen in multiple locations related to Project 2040, the following:

In 2016, as part of the preparation of the Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2016–2035, the NTA conducted a cost benefit analysis of an extension of the Dunboyne/M3 Parkway line to Dunshaughlin and Navan

Does anyone know where I can find the results of this, or would I need to submit a FOI request. Have looked several places already.

PopePalpatine

Scroll down to page 54 of this report, they decided there wasn't enough demand for that extension.

PopePalpatine

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Scroll down to page 54 of this report, they decided there wasn't enough demand for that extension.

Last time I was in Dunshaughlin there were houses being built to beat the band. :rolleyes:

ncounties

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Scroll down to page 54 of this report, they decided there wasn't enough demand for that extension.

Thanks for that! Fingers crossed there is still some hope with the following also stated in Project 2040:

The NTA is required to review its Greater Dublin Area Strategy before the end of 2021. This review will include a reappraisal of the project, taking into account the scale of new and planned development along the route and will allow for its consideration during the Mid-Term Review of the NDP in 2022.

With the rate of developments coming online there, it would be seem crazy not to put decent public transport links in now. I also read the station would have likely been at Dumree. When will we ever learn!?

Pete_Cavan

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Last time I was in Dunshaughlin there were houses being built to beat the band. :rolleyes:

Dunshaughlin is as well served by the existing M3 Parkway Station then it would be by any new station were the Navan line to reopen. The original track only served a couple of villages between Dunboyne and Navan and the route into Navan has been built on already.

Realistically, to bring a train service to Navan, you'd be better building a new route, serving Dunshaughlin, hugging the M3 with a new P&R around Gallows Cross and connecting to the Drogheda line to get into Navan. A new station could also be built around Johnstown/Kentstown Road to serve the big population on that side of the town. In truth, a new line will involve as much land acquisition and engineering works as trying to reopen the original line.

BonnieSituation

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Dunshaughlin is as well served by the existing M3 Parkway Station then it would be by any new station were the Navan line to reopen. The original track only served a couple of villages between Dunboyne and Navan and the route into Navan has been built on already.

Realistically, to bring a train service to Navan, you'd be better building a new route, serving Dunshaughlin, hugging the M3 with a new P&R around Gallows Cross and connecting to the Drogheda line to get into Navan. A new station could also be built around Johnstown/Kentstown Road to serve the big population on that side of the town. In truth, a new line will involve as much land acquisition and engineering works as trying to reopen the original line.

Well said.

This obsession with keeping or reopening old routes is a weird affliction.

We need rail, but we don't always need it where it was.

cgcsb

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well said.

This obsession with keeping or reopening old routes is a weird affliction.

We need rail, but we don't always need it where it was.

The same affliction gave us the WRC Ennis-Athenry route. I'm sure there are plenty of merits associated with connecting Limerick and Galway by rail, but exactly why that route had to be the same as a Victorian era railway that took a meandering route through floodplains that was never going to offer a competitive journey time is quite astounding.

roadmaster

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well said.

This obsession with keeping or reopening old routes is a weird affliction.

We need rail, but we don't always need it where it was.

The only problem there is do you want people to continue driving to Dublin rather than using public transit. I have no doubt a train from navan would do well . That report is for 2016 on so it means they probably started in 2013. The economy has changed dramatically since then . just compare the construction work being carried out in Ireland between 2015 & 2017.

Even look at dunshaughlin on one site alone Gem are building 800 houses @ an output of 100 units a year if they had more men they would increase that and that is only one of the developments in that area. In 3 years times you will not swing a cat in dunshaughlin with traffic jams due to the current building

Maybe be its time for a minor review of that report

CatInABox

roadmaster wrote: »

The only problem there is do you want people to continue driving to Dublin rather than using public transit. I have no doubt a train from navan would do well . That report is for 2016 on so it means they probably started in 2013. The economy has changed dramatically since then . just compare the construction work being carried out in Ireland between 2015 & 2017.

Even look at dunshaughlin on one site alone Gem are building 800 houses @ an output of 100 units a year if they had more men they would increase that and that is only one of the developments in that area. In 3 years times you will not swing a cat in dunshaughlin with traffic jams due to the current building

Maybe be its time for a minor review of that report

I don't think Bonnie has a problem with a rail line to Navan, I think they have a problem with reopening the old rail line, which won't properly serve the new population centres in the area.

roadmaster

CatInABox wrote: »

I don't think Bonnie has a problem with a rail line to Navan, I think he has a problem with reopening the old rail line, which won't properly serve the new population centres in the area.

i agree about old lines that are not needed but a line like pete_cavan suggested would be a good idea it would mainly be through open fields so no major challenges It could swing in around Johnstown with a new station and connect in to the drogheda line .It could then end with a p&r between Navan retail park and Tara mines and maybe even reopen the old station in the town. Again navan is going to be a wash with new houses for commuters in the comimng years

Qrt

roadmaster wrote: »

i agree about old lines that are not needed but a line like pete_cavan suggested would be a good idea it would mainly be through open fields so no major challenges It could swing in around Johnstown with a new station and connect in to the drogheda line .It could then end with a p&r between Navan retail park and Tara mines and maybe even reopen the old station in the town. Again navan is going to be a wash with new houses for commuters in the comimng years

Are they houses or houses and apartments? I hope Meath isn't going down the semi-detached-houses-everywhere route.

roadmaster

Qrt wrote: »

Are they houses or houses and apartments? I hope Meath isn't going down the semi-detached-houses-everywhere route.

Semi Ds in every direction

OneEightSeven

Qrt wrote: »

Are they houses or houses and apartments? I hope Meath isn't going down the semi-detached-houses-everywhere route.

Meath has always been like that. There's high demand for land here because of urban sprawl, the land is some of the most fertile soil in country and because of its proximity to Dublin. A 4 bedroom detached house with a large back garden sets you back +€500,000 here. There used to be a time when you could buy a plot of land in a housing estate (like this vacant one left undeveloped) and build your own home, but due to high demand for housing here, building 4 bedroom detached homes is expensive and beyond most people's price range, so that's why they build semis.

Australia, Canada and America on average have the largest homes in the world because land is much cheaper due to those countries being underpopulated. Ireland is a small island and land is a finite resource, so fast population growth puts a lot of stress on the price of land and since our fertility rates are below replacement level (they're actually their lowest point ever), our population growth is all down to immigration.

bk

OneEightSeven wrote: »

Meath has always been like that. There's high demand for land here because of urban sprawl, the land is some of the most fertile soil in country and because of its proximity to Dublin. A 4 bedroom detached house with a large back garden sets you back +€500,000 here. There used to be a time when you could buy a plot of land in a housing estate (like this vacant one left undeveloped) and build your own home, but due to high demand for housing here, building 4 bedroom detached homes is expensive and beyond most people's price range, so that's why they build semis.

I think the point of the folks above is that we should be building high density apartment buildings near train stations if we want people using public transport.

A sea of two bedroom homes of any type, semi-d or not is bad for public transport use and instead lends itself to people driving instead like you see in the US.

It is a very clear sign of very poor planning.

Qrt

bk wrote: »

I think the point of the folks above is that we should be building high density apartment buildings near train stations if we want people using public transport.

A sea of two bedroom homes of any type, semi-d or not is bad for public transport use and instead lends itself to people driving instead like you see in the US.

It is a very clear sign of very poor planning.

A brief look at Navan on myhome.ie is kinda making me a bit ill. I think the most ridiculous planning of late has been around terenure/templogue. They're building houses in an area that close to town! Insanity.

roadmaster

Qrt wrote: »

A brief look at Navan on myhome.ie is kinda making me a bit ill. I think the most ridiculous planning of late has been around terenure/templogue. They're building houses in an area that close to town! Insanity.

I wouldnt worry about that Meath generally makes people feel illðŸ˜

Harry Palmr

https://drcd.gov.ie/about/news-centre/press-releases/taoiseach-and-minister-ring-announce-first-successful-applicants-under-e1-billion-rural-regeneration-and-development-fund/

So then the first tranche of a billion euro over 10 years announced. I'm sure it'll make no difference whatsoever in the large scheme of things even if individual projects are worthy. It sure won't transform anything or stop the unstoppable move of people from the country to larger towns and cities. Indeed the whole thing is being badly oversold and should instead just be delivered without fuss or a level of trumpeting it cannot bear the weight of.

FreudianSlippers

That's really a paltry amount of money, but they can't even spend their annual allocation in the first year or the first 4 years?!

roadmaster

I am not sure where to post this so I put it hear since this thread is about the future.

Is Irish rail just having the craic and teasing the poor people of east Cavan/ south Monaghan be even talking about this?

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/12/22/4166911-kingscourt-trains-back-on-the-rails/

Just to add it says in the article the line will be maintained, I wish I new what they where going to maintain!

CatInABox

roadmaster wrote: »

I am not sure where to post this so I put it hear since this thread is about the future.

Is Irish rail just having the craic and teasing the poor people of east Cavan/ south Monaghan be even talking about this?

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/12/22/4166911-kingscourt-trains-back-on-the-rails/

Just to add it says in the article the line will be maintained, I wish I new what they where going to maintain!

I think it might be the kind of thing that I'd say to my kids at times: "I'll look into it for you", all while doing no such thing.

It could conceivably be done as part of a "M3 Parkway to Navan" extension, but even that is just a twinkle in the eye of a few planners at this stage.

cgcsb

Lol. We're inconceivably far from opening new rural rail services it's not even worth a mention. There'd have to be billions spent on the existing network before even extending to Navan becomes a thing. North of Navan? Ask for improved bus services.

roadmaster

The gas thing is the Meath chronicle does be leading with story’s of turning it in to a greenway and we get the Celt running story’s now and again of reopening it as a railway. They mention it being a benefit to gypsum the only problem is the rock they import comes through greenore so trains are no good to them

marno21

N3 dualling north of Kells would be far more beneficial especially given the HGV traffic up that way

As a cavan man I say............. LOL :pac::pac::pac:

But yes, not having a commuter line to Navan is a huge strategic miss.

CrabRevolution

roadmaster wrote: »

I am not sure where to post this so I put it hear since this thread is about the future.

Is Irish rail just having the craic and teasing the poor people of east Cavan/ south Monaghan be even talking about this?

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/12/22/4166911-kingscourt-trains-back-on-the-rails/

Just to add it says in the article the line will be maintained, I wish I new what they where going to maintain!

Even for the low standards of local journalism that's poor. Firstly it's a statement from a TD, which is utterly worthless by definition, and on top of that it's a "review" of the line. If I wanted a line like that reopened the last thing I'd want is a study/survey/review since it'd show just how hopeless a case it is. I'd be demanding they just build it with no planning.

Why would they need a passenger line to Navan anyway? Do large numbers of South Cavan/Monaghan people work in Navan? I find it hard to believe many people would drive to Kingscourt to get a train to Navan, especially considering it's pretty sparsely populated and there's minimal traffic on those roads. Or do they wan't an incredibly slow route all the way to Dublin?

Even as a Meath man I have to say this plan is just lunacy.

jhenno78

Good idea. Take a walk on the line, have a look around "yup, it's still there".

Really though, a rail line to Navan would be brilliant and maybe further too but certainly not in the direction of kingscourt.

I agree wholeheartedly with what others have said that we should be considering new alignments with for railways, not being tied to the old ones which are so unsuitable in so many ways.

While the word "greenway" can understandably be a dirty word to some rail enthusiasts, that really would be the best use for the kingscourt line and "reviewing" it would help preserve it for that.

gooddarts10

30m to be taken from the transport budget to help fund the overspend on the NCH

karma_coma

gooddarts10 wrote: »

30m to be taken from the transport budget to help fund the overspend on the NCH

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/0211/1028942-childrens-hospital/

Dats me

karma_coma wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/0211/1028942-childrens-hospital/

I wonder is there any chance that it will all be taken from roads

CatInABox

In other words, 60% of all the savings outside of the department of health. Transport, with the large number of capital projects, was always going to be hit harder than most.

hans aus dtschl

I know we all agree that the Children's hospital is badly needed, but some of us are still waiting for the intercity motorway network which began in 1983 to be completed.

Is it going too far to suggest that this announcement effectively amounts to a cut to national expenditure outside of Dublin, in order to facilitate the major construction expenditure within Dublin? I'll certainly be bearing it in mind during the upcoming election.

Peregrine

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Is it going too far to suggest that this announcement effectively amounts to a cut to national expenditure outside of Dublin, in order to facilitate the major construction expenditure within Dublin? I'll certainly be bearing it in mind during the upcoming election.

1. The transport budget includes Dublin and the rest of the country
2. The National Children's Hospital is for children in Dublin and the rest of the country

It's not just going too far, it just doesn't make any logical sense.

hans aus dtschl

Peregrine wrote: »

1. The transport budget includes Dublin and the rest of the country
2. The National Children's Hospital is for children in Dublin and the rest of the country

It's not just going too far, it just doesn't make any logical sense.

Some people are still going to be 5 hours journey from this hospital, and there's little to no discussion of resolving that. It's a €2bn injection into the local building trades followed by a sustained employment hub for valuable jobs thereafter.

We're constantly hearing about real Dublin problems, like the housing shortage and "Dublin's infrastructure at breaking point", but we simultaneously have a lack of really basic infrastructure in/to the other cities, making them a less attractive proposition for foreign companies to invest in. That's a lack of joined up thinking.

I realise that this will be just perceived as just another "thick country bumpkin doesn't understand". I do get that. But I also travel the country and there's still a lot of hurt going on, people in many places don't feel like the recession has ended. I know I'm not the only one looking at this project with a sense of wonder, knowing that more local projects at a fraction of the price of just the overruns are shelved indefinitely on cost basis alone.