Ireland 2040 Planning Framework & associated Investment Plan discussion [NO ROADS]

marno21

4 tracking the Northern Line is a sort of requirement but the execution of such is going to cause difficulty.

lucernarian

marno21 wrote: »

4 tracking the Northern Line is a sort of requirement but the execution of such is going to cause difficulty.

If I remember correctly, 3-tracking would come in a lot cheaper than 4-tracking. I'm thinking of a document from Irish rail that read like a wishlist, but there was something like 800 million mentioned for quad, but 300 million for triple. Any exact sources would be welcome here.

The demand for increased Enterprise services is somewhat limited. If there was an hourly service in the future, it could take significant advantage of one extra track, with a Drogheda commuter right behind at similar speeds over the electrified stretch.

But the plan doesn't go into this. What we have is some unrealistic expectation of boosting capacity on all Dublin suburban routes when only the Maynooth and Newbridge services could hope to do so, without significant impact on intercity services.

So, are intercity rail services even worth that protection when only commuter rail can hope to best the traffic jams? It sticks out painfully that small measures to really increase capacity and speed on the various routes aren't talked about. No dualling to Tullamore, Carlow or indeed Mullingar that I saw.

Heartbreak Hank

Does the 11th hour change to the framework mean that one of house construction will increase rather than decrease as was originally planned? I have read pieces that said 60% of development will be one off houses. Is this just scaremongering?

Is this framework adopted or does it need to go to public consultation or through dail review or anything?

murphaph

irishfeen wrote: »

We could certainly do with the extra tax payers to help pay for this investment plan

You won't find them in Northern Ireland.

orangerhyme

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Only skimmed through it but if I'm reading right there's not to be a single notable upgrade to public transport in Dublin in the next decade?

Metro, Dart & BusConnects are all listed as 2027 delivery (even that's probably optimistic given the track record) and no Luas expansion whatsoever planned until post 2027

We've been the fastest growing economy in Europe for 4 years now yet it seems even now there's barely a single shovel ready project in the whole country with most of these major projects still years away from even starting. Absolute joke how infrastructure planning has been handled in recent years

Busconnects in Dublin is happening as we speak, it'll be rolled out over the coming years.
It doesn't require much infrastructure

nuac

Fann Linn wrote: »

Decentralisation. We've had that already.

We need to move more offices out of Dublin. With modern comms that can now be done

lisasimpson

nuac wrote: »

We need to move more offices out of Dublin. With modern comms that can now be done

Exactly but in a proper way. Not this have to send a form to one office for processing and then sent to the other end of the country for processing... some of the existing decentralised offices can be extended should be looked into. Video conferencing like what many mutlinationals use should be rolled out across the cival service..one way to reduce cost

snotboogie

hmmm wrote: »

And it has failed. Instead we have a bunch of isolated departments, with poorly skilled staff and who find it all but impossible to hire experienced staff, who are spending a fortune driving up and down to Dublin day in day out.

This is supposed to be the national infrastructure plan, not the decentralisation plan.We're not Kazakhstan where the politicians can just decide to up and move the capital to nowhere, the fact is that Dublin will remain the engine for growth in this country - and if it stops being the engine for growth, or if we force it to stop, it will affect the entire country.

The only thing for Dublin is Metro, and the Southern part of that just duplicates existing public transport. Other than that we get the possibility of maybe some new bus routes, and there will be surveyors out looking at possible LUAS extensions after 2027.

We are still the most centralized OECD nation, poor regional autonomy is bad for economic growth: https://euobserver.com/regions/28142

Proper decentralization would see increased regional autonomy, rather than random public service departments moving to Longford.

Doltanian

over €20billion for Climate Change, what a disgrace, Climate Change is an unproven pseudo-science and Trump has already told the leftwing to go to hell with that agenda and Ireland so do the same. That €20billion should be pumped into Fibre-Optic Broadband, new Motorways and High-Speed Rail and Metro lines in Dublin.

Ireland is but a mere fart in the global emissions of what is a totally unproven load of nonsense. This entire plan is a shambles and nothing will ever come of it other that divert as much public money into the hands of private corrupt cronies and nothing will be built.

OneEightSeven

Doltanian wrote: »

over €20billion for Climate Change, what a disgrace, Climate Change is an unproven pseudo-science and Trump has already told the leftwing to go to hell with that agenda and Ireland so do the same. That €20billion should be pumped into Fibre-Optic Broadband, new Motorways and High-Speed Rail and Metro lines in Dublin.

Ireland is but a mere fart in the global emissions of what is a totally unproven load of nonsense. This entire plan is a shambles and nothing will ever come of it other that divert as much public money into the hands of private corrupt cronies and nothing will be built.

Fibre-optic broadband to where?

Doltanian

OneEightSeven wrote: »

Fibre-optic broadband to where?

Rural Ireland, if you live in the arse end of Ballygobackwards outside in Rockall you should have the same access to Fibre-Optic Broadband as a West Brit in D4.

OneEightSeven

Doltanian wrote: »

Rural Ireland, if you live in the arse end of Ballygobackwards outside in Rockall you should have the same access to Fibre-Optic Broadband as a West Brit in D4.

No, they shouldn't. Rural one-off housing is already heavily subsidised in its current state without the added cost of rolling out fibre-optic to these homes. There is also no economic benefit to providing fibre to these homes. Subsidising these one-off houses is the main reason why our cities are deprived of investment.

There are sacrifices to living in rural areas and poor services, such as rubbish broadband, is one of them. Us urban-dwellers get high rents/property prices in exchange for superior services. rural-dwellers get poor services in exchange for cheaper land/housing and the peaceful tranquillity of living in the countryside.

If rural-dwellers want faster broadband, they must sell their home to some auld couple who don't use the internet and move to a nearby village and we should cut off their subsidies to encourage them there, most of them would go bankrupt if the had to pay the full cost of providing services to their homes.

Doltanian

OneEightSeven wrote: »

No, they shouldn't. Rural one-off housing is already heavily subsidised in its current state without the added cost of rolling out fibre-optic to these homes. There is also no economic benefit to providing fibre to these homes. Subsidising these one-off houses is the main reason why our cities are deprived of investment.

There are sacrifices to living in rural areas and poor services, such as rubbish broadband, is one of them. Us urban-dwellers get high rents/property prices in exchange for superior services. rural-dwellers get poor services in exchange for cheaper land/housing and the peaceful tranquillity of living in the countryside.

If rural-dwellers want faster broadband, they must sell their home to some auld couple who don't use the internet and move to a nearby village and we should cut off their subsidies to encourage them there, most of them would go bankrupt if the had to pay the full cost of providing services to their homes.

You are wrong and you wouldn't last five minutes in politics with such an arrogant and ageist opinion. Superior services in cities? All I see in Dublin is pollution, run down ancient buildings, delinquent criminals in charge of the streets and stress and illegal immigrants and traffic everywhere.

Ireland is rural country with the backbone of the country in the rural counties. Superior infrastructure is needed for rural Ireland and anyone with a choice will not want to go near Dublin, it is like something from the Walking Dead at the best of times.

vmb

Doltanian wrote: »

You are wrong and you wouldn't last five minutes in politics with such an arrogant and ageist opinion. Superior services in cities? All I see in Dublin is pollution, run down ancient buildings, delinquent criminals in charge of the streets and stress and illegal immigrants and traffic everywhere.

Ireland is rural country with the backbone of the country in the rural counties. Superior infrastructure is needed for rural Ireland and anyone with a choice will not want to go near Dublin, it is like something from the Walking Dead at the best of times.

Interesting, then rural Ireland should not receive money from Dublin taxpayers. We have enough living in this filthy place (irony).

Future is based in cities. They are efficient and more environmental friendly. One-off housing must be banned. We just don't have to subside broadband or roads for those who decide to live outside of civilisation.:mad:

Dublin is the engine of this country and some politicians are trying to slow down its growth, as they don't provide enough infrastructures such a Dublin Underground

Topgear on Dave

Doltanian wrote: »

Rural Ireland, if you live in the arse end of Ballygobackwards outside in Rockall you should have the same access to Fibre-Optic Broadband as a West Brit in D4.

If resources were limitless we could provide motorways, trains, broadband, trauma centres, special needs assistants, home helps to everyone everywhere. But they are not.

Theres an awful lot of chat about broadband on here and not a lot about other priorities.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/temple-st-childrens-hospital-sees-overcrowding-at-its-emergency-department-828234.html

Doltanian

There is massive resources available except so much is squandered on leftist programmes, Social Welfare spending should be slashed heavily as should Health Spending, the HSE and Civil Service needs around 150,000 redundancies to get rid of the dead weight. The same work could be done by around 40,000 Private non-Unionised staff if it was outsourced. Trade Unions and the "I want I want I want me me me" culture is killing this country.

When money should be pumped into infrastructure which would create a huge economic stimulus, giving a massive competitive boost and it is a case if you build it they will come.

Dublin needs not one Metro but several lines and there needs to no limit on how high you can build, all social housing in the city should be slowly privatised and got rid of and provide socialised housing further out in declining counties like Roscommon and Leitrim.

We need to look at China at their approach, bulldoze straight ahead and don't let anything stop progress, Ireland is ideally situated to grow into a major aviation hub for example between Europe and the America's, Develop Dublin Airport more with InterCity trains from Munster and Belfast calling there also, Dublin could be linked to Shannon with a Maglev or Very High Speed rail to allow inter-airport transfers within 15-20minutes if we really wanted.

Instead we choose to squander billions on social welfare, socialised housing, lazy incompetent jobs for life public servants and marxist spending. We have no imagination or strive for greatness, mediocrity is the name of the game along with massive corruption and Trade Unions and Marxism destroying the country. Very little of these plans will ever see fruition thanks to a self serving legal system and objections, mediocrity will continue. Meanwhile countries like China and Dubai U.A.E will move forward into the 21st Century whilst Ireland is left behind thanks to a culture of incompetence and acceptance of corruption. Until we see a strong leader like Thatcher emerge then we will never go anywhere until all the Unions and Leftism is crushed.

Mutant z

What's the betting most of this will fail to be achieved and the TDs will be sitting at home on their fat pensions hoping we have all forgotten about it by then.

lawred2

snotboogie wrote: »

We are still the most centralized OECD nation, poor regional autonomy is bad for economic growth: https://euobserver.com/regions/28142

Proper decentralization would see increased regional autonomy, rather than random public service departments moving to Longford.

I'd have thought our centralisation issues were more a consequence of the absence of proper local democracy. The entirety of Ireland is governed by representatives in Dublin. Hence we get parish pump micro nonsense in our national Parliament.

The geographical spread of our civil service while not ideal is hardly that much a cause for concern. Ireland isn't that big.

lawred2

Doltanian wrote: »

You are wrong and you wouldn't last five minutes in politics with such an arrogant and ageist opinion. Superior services in cities? All I see in Dublin is pollution, run down ancient buildings, delinquent criminals in charge of the streets and stress and illegal immigrants and traffic everywhere.

Ireland is rural country with the backbone of the country in the rural counties. Superior infrastructure is needed for rural Ireland and anyone with a choice will not want to go near Dublin, it is like something from the Walking Dead at the best of times.

You might want to visit Dublin some time and forget about that comic book idea of Dublin you've constructed in your head

Doltanian

Mutant z wrote: »

What's the betting most of this will fail to be achieved and the TDs will be sitting at home on their fat pensions hoping we have all forgotten about it by then.

A small amount of it will be built, stuff that is no use to the majority like Global Warming nonsense.

By Comparison look to the Developing country of the Philippines with 107million people and a smaller GDP than Ireland and they elected a new President almost two years and he rules their country with an iron fist and one of his first moves was to get around 10,000 drug dealers and corrupt police and politicians shot dead.

http://build.gov.ph/SFTFiles/Documents/BBB%20Presentation%20for%20ICEP%202017_May%203%202017.pdf

After establishing rule of law again he now he has unveiled his countries Infrastructure plan. There is no leftism there or political correctness only get the job done and built stuff. Here in in Ireland Leftwing Councils, an Taisce, An Bord Pleanala and their army of parasite solicitors must be rubbing their hands in glee at how much they can block and hold up progress and milk the state for millions from it all.

I would like to think that we could achieve things but they'd rather give joe soap an extra tenner on the dole so he might vote for the local gombeen Fianna Fail or FG Candidate. We should be spending a minimum of 5 to 8% of GDP solely on Infrastructure and such investment will repay itself many times over in the future if we had a visionary or politician with enough cajones to take on the vested interests in this country.

Christy Browne

Doltanian wrote: »

There is massive resources available except so much is squandered on leftist programmes, Social Welfare spending should be slashed heavily as should Health Spending, the HSE and Civil Service needs around 150,000 redundancies to get rid of the dead weight. The same work could be done by around 40,000 Private non-Unionised staff if it was outsourced. Trade Unions and the "I want I want I want me me me" culture is killing this country.

When money should be pumped into infrastructure which would create a huge economic stimulus, giving a massive competitive boost and it is a case if you build it they will come.

Dublin needs not one Metro but several lines and there needs to no limit on how high you can build, all social housing in the city should be slowly privatised and got rid of and provide socialised housing further out in declining counties like Roscommon and Leitrim.

We need to look at China at their approach, bulldoze straight ahead and don't let anything stop progress, Ireland is ideally situated to grow into a major aviation hub for example between Europe and the America's, Develop Dublin Airport more with InterCity trains from Munster and Belfast calling there also, Dublin could be linked to Shannon with a Maglev or Very High Speed rail to allow inter-airport transfers within 15-20minutes if we really wanted.

Instead we choose to squander billions on social welfare, socialised housing, lazy incompetent jobs for life public servants and marxist spending. We have no imagination or strive for greatness, mediocrity is the name of the game along with massive corruption and Trade Unions and Marxism destroying the country. Very little of these plans will ever see fruition thanks to a self serving legal system and objections, mediocrity will continue. Meanwhile countries like China and Dubai U.A.E will move forward into the 21st Century whilst Ireland is left behind thanks to a culture of incompetence and acceptance of corruption. Until we see a strong leader like Thatcher emerge then we will never go anywhere until all the Unions and Leftism is crushed.

I don’t even know where to start with this absolute drivel.

marno21

MOD:

Can we give the political debate a rest and talk about what's in the plan. It's not changing any time soon

sameoldname

Christy Browne wrote: »

I don’t even know where to start with this absolute drivel.

I'd start with telling him to pay for his own god-damned fibre broadband rather than expecting the rest of the country to pay for it. Because subsidies are leftist... or something

Back on topic though... I do think that the government would be right to strongly encourage development in the Galway/Limerick/Cork area's because there's no where else in the country that can act as an effective counterweight to Dublin. If they can succeed or not is the question...

Lennoxschips

Regarding the metro connection to the airport, they've only thought of the link between the city of Dublin and the airport, not how to link the rest of the country to Dublin airport by public transport.

If you are coming into Dublin from the west by train and want to get to the airport, then you are looking at changing to the Luas at Heuston and then changing from the Luas to the Metro.

If you are coming down from the north then you have to walk to the metro station from Connolly and take the metro back out to the airport. Why haven't they extended the metro to Malahide or to Donabete and built an interchange station there? All Intercity and Enterprise services could call at the interchange and suddenly you've made it very easy for everyone between Belfast and Dublin to get to the airport by public transport.

A complete lack of joined up thinking. But I wouldn't have expected anything else.

LXFlyer

orangerhyme wrote: »

Busconnects in Dublin is happening as we speak, it'll be rolled out over the coming years.
It doesn't require much infrastructure

Really? I would beg to differ. The infrastructure requirements are significant.

BusConnects involves a large amount of CPO activity to widen roads to allow continuous* bus priority along the main bus corridors. Large numbers of additional bus shelters will be added at bus stops, along with far more RTPI signs and new standardised bus stops.

It may also involve the provision of park and ride facilities on certain corridors.

Without putting in a large number of additional bus lanes and other bus priority measures the project might as well be shelved. Without them the bus service will grind to a halt in many parts of the city.

*Continuous being the NTA description, but this is impossible in the suburban villages like Rathmines, Rathgar and Terenure for example without demolishing the villages themselves. Bus gates and traffic queue relocators will have to feature in these areas.

Zebra3

Doltanian wrote: »

the "I want I want I want me me me" culture is killing this country.

Oh, the irony!!!! :pac:

snotboogie

lawred2 wrote: »

I'd have thought our centralisation issues were more a consequence of the absence of proper local democracy. The entirety of Ireland is governed by representatives in Dublin. Hence we get parish pump micro nonsense in our national Parliament.

The geographical spread of our civil service while not ideal is hardly that much a cause for concern. Ireland isn't that big.

That's kind of what I'm saying, local councils are too small and have far to little power. That results in TD's making parish pump an issue nationally because they are the only ones who can fund anything beyond fixing pot holes.

Political decentralization is about moving power, not civil servants.

lawred2

snotboogie wrote: »

That's kind of what I'm saying, local councils are too small and have far to little power. That results in TD's making parish pump an issue nationally because they are the only ones who can fund anything beyond fixing pot holes.

Political decentralization is about moving power, not civil servants.

Ah yeah but that's different to the decentralization FF 'attempted' .. they just wanted to move a few jobs around to their constituencies..

zetalambda

bk wrote: »

a strong Belfast as part of our country would lead to a much more balanced development.

irishfeen wrote: »

We could certainly do with the extra tax payers to help pay for this investment plan

Don't get too excited there folks. Belfast with twice the population of Cork has half the GDP.

ED E

zetalambda wrote: »

Don't get too excited there folks. Belfast with twice the population of Cork has half the GDP.

Belfast is NIs hub based primarily on public service jobs. Post Brexit it may not fair so well.