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Suspected Terrorist Attack in Paris

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    #332
    yoke
    Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭yoke


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Do you believe that refugees from terror regions have integrated well into the Western society as a whole? Why doesn't china Japan and so on have these problems?

    I fully disagree on your stance that carrying on with life as normal will make this problem go away in the long term. It's not isolationist to limit people coming from terror regions who's culture vastly differs from our way of life, it's common sense. Immigration works when the people coming respect our society and want to integrate, I don't believe that's what's been happening for the most part.

    China and Japan have huge problems. Noone knows where Japan is going economically, and China is far below where it should be, if it was performing well.

    And yes, as a whole refugees have integrated well in Ireland so far from what I can see. Incidentally, I wasn't even talking about refugees - I was talking about people who came for jobs - i.e. the vast majority of immigrants.

    Stopping immigration - isolating yourself - is the definition of isolationism actually.

    Demanding respect doesn't work - respect has to be earned. You can't demand respect for your society from someone, that's just stupid. And I believe that when people live somewhere for a while and they see they are treated fairly, they begin to respect the society that gave them that, and in time they become loyal citizens actually.


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    #333
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    I fully disagree on your stance that carrying on with life as normal will make this problem go away in the long term. It's not isolationist to limit people coming from terror regions who's culture vastly differs from our way of life, it's common sense. Immigration works when the people coming respect our society and want to integrate, I don't believe that's what's been happening for the most part.

    Sorry , there is no requirement to " integrate " simply to make a success of an immigration strategy. Assimilation tends to occur anyway , over succeeding generations , even if " treasured " cultural identities are maintained.

    Muslims have been present in European cultures for generations as have many other cultures , many of whom ( like the romanys ) have retained distinctive cultural traditions

    The current issue is not about muslims, its the radicalisation of certain elements of Muslim society as a result of the barbaric conflict in the ME and one in which the Wests hands are as bloody as all the others , if not more so.


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    #334
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    refugees from terror regions

    sorry the vast majority of genuine refugees are from war zones , not terror regions , war zones that are primarily the result of the massive deployment of US military might


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    #335
    yoke
    Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭yoke


    I don't agree with "maintaining cultural tradition" actually - I do believe people integrate and assimilation should be the goal of any immigration policy, not creating divisions within one society.

    All cultural traditions should be treated with suspicion IMO - whether it's the "host" country traditions or the immigrant's traditions - culture is a dynamic thing and it changes over time, I believe this idea that certain people are to be associated with certain cultures is the most dangerous thing which can derail a successful immigration policy and create a "them and us" mentality.

    Everyone should get the same education regardless of cultural background, and eventually people gravitate to the same "culture" - not necessarily the exact same as what existed before, but definitely not different cultures because that is creating division within society.


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    #336
    yoke
    Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭yoke


    To put it another way - if a child has one immigrant parent and one indigenous parent, what culture is the child?

    It's very important that such children feel a part of their society, and not part of some subset of that society. Otherwise they will always identify as "different", and will always have more problems.

    The Vikings successfully integrated into Irish society - but we don't see Viking children do we? I'm sure a lot of Viking traditions made their way into Irish traditions, but all Irish people think of them as "Irish" at this stage - i.e. separation of culture is unlikely to work for a successful immigration policy IMO.

    A good contrast to the Vikings in Ireland story is the story of the Roma/gypsy people in Central Europe, who (for whatever reason) never really culturally integrated into the countries where they live.
    They are still feeling the effects of this with there being negative connotations to being Roma in most European countries - whether they were not able to assimilate because the host people didn't let them inside their towns is irrelevant, the point is that even now people think of them as "them and us".


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    #337
    aled
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 229 ✭✭aled


    you group disaffected folks into disaffected areas you get what you get. I lived in Kista, Stockholm for a lot of years and you simply would not go near Husby or Akalla. These areas were simply high rise areas packed with immigrants.
    So what do you expect, a social inclusion policy that socially excludes. And strangely when you look at the other countries targeted by such attacks, all of them have the exact same policy. Just shove migrants into migrant areas and maybe they will go away.
    In Ireland we tend to simply shove the poor people among the poor people. Migration to date has been tolerated. Its poverty we have primarily focused on in this country. So migrants have been free to move within our society. And this is a very good thing. I think our European friends would be rather jealous when they look at our integration policy (bar direct provision which is a disgrace and an embarrassment)


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    #338
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Sorry , there is no requirement to " integrate " simply to make a success of an immigration strategy. Assimilation tends to occur anyway , over succeeding generations , even if " treasured " cultural identities are maintained.

    Muslims have been present in European cultures for generations as have many other cultures , many of whom ( like the romanys ) have retained distinctive cultural traditions

    The current issue is not about muslims, its the radicalisation of certain elements of Muslim society as a result of the barbaric conflict in the ME and one in which the Wests hands are as bloody as all the others , if not more so.

    Why have people, even Merkel, come out and say multiple times multiculturalism has failed in Germany and that it's a myth?


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    #339
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    My commiserations to those involved.
    Dublin Pintman wrote: »
    We're almost at the stage where an 11 year old girl being torn in half by a truck in a European capital is seen as not that big of a deal.

    3,400 people will be killed by traffic today. Might you be engaging in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome


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    #340
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    Are you engaging in making excuses for Terrorism? I don't know what happened in Paris yesterday, but I do know that over the past two years terror incidents appear to be happening far more frequently. What you fail to think about are the plots foiled which rarely get reported on, it's a constant cat and mouse game and it's only logic that they won't be able to stop all of them. One that did get foiled occurred a few days ago with radicalised bomb makers in Marseille. There's also the heavily increased money being used for security reasons along with the loss of revenue from tourism in major cities. That's before you go into the physiological and social effect it has on Europe as a whole.

    But shure it will be grand, as long as people die in other ways it doesn't really matter.


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    #341
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    Victor wrote: »
    My commiserations to those involved.

    3,400 people will be killed by traffic today. Might you be engaging in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome

    20000 cattle will be killed today in Ireland so it's okay to have dog fighting and badger baiting.


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    #342
    Beyondgone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Beyondgone


    BoatMad wrote: »
    I see, like the water charge campaign , was largely led by residents of Dublin 4

    I see

    hmmmmm.

    Water charges were just a handy horse to hop on. It was also pointless, a bit like shouting about the price of a bottle of minerals at a concert when you're paying €400 for the ticket to get in. "Pick a better thing to protest about" and all that.


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    #343
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Can anyone explain to me what Islamophobia means? Why is it a phobia to not like Islam? It is a very bizarre way to try and label someone to try and discredit them if they are critical about it.


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    #344
    dav3
    Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Can anyone explain to me what Islamophobia means? Why is it a phobia to not like Islam? It is a very bizarre way to try and label someone to try and discredit them if they are critical about it.

    A phobia is an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something, I think it would be a quite apt description for someone such as yourself who is scared of their own shadow.
    Having said that, a phobia would be classed as a disorder, so I think we should go easy on people with such a disorder.


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    #345
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Gamebred wrote: »
    The best solution for middle east hell holes like Syria Iraq and Afghanistan is nuke them and turn them into a carpark, you'd be putting the people out of their misery and saving resources.
    Gamebred wrote: »
    A possible solution is to start by tearing down all these Muslim ghettos in France and Belguim, breeding grounds for terror and full to the brim of sympathizers, death sentences for anybody preparing or assisting a plot in anyway.

    Mod: Don't post in this thread again.

    Other posters, tone it down if you want the thread to stay open. The topic is the attack in Paris last night, not a rehash of the wrongs of Europe/left wing/right wing/other posters. It's generating a lot of (deservedly) reported posts and will be closed if it continues being a multi-page sniping match. Stick to the topic.


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    #346
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    BoatMad wrote: »
    The parallels between the historical persecution of the Jews, and the trends towards similar persecution of Muslims in Europe are there for all to see

    They are not identical , because of course the demonisation of Muslims is at an early stage , while we are fully aware of the course of Jewish persecution by European nationalists
    BoatMad wrote: »

    Muslims have been present in European cultures for generations as have many other cultures

    The current issue is not about muslims, its the radicalisation of certain elements of Muslim society.

    You said it yourself, the current issue is not about Muslims.

    What people think is right to control and restrict at this moment in Europe is not Islam, but Islamism, extremist views and actions.


    In order to achieve control, restrictions may have to involve restricting immigration for moderate Muslims for some time, as it is very hard to identify islamist elements.

    This is nothing like the Jewish holocaust parallel you are attempting to draw.
    Even Marine Le Pen is not suggesting what you are suggesting.

    Marine Le Pen is not going to "pull France out" of the EU as soon as she's in power either. She is going to try and negotiate new EU terms for France, if these fail, she is going to propose a referendum. French people will then decide.


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    #347
    SILVAMAN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭SILVAMAN


    Now saying that the shooter was jailed for 20 years for a gun attack on police in 2001. Perhaps whole tariff life sentences should be introduced.
    http://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/gunman-killed-in-paris-shooting-was-isis-terrorist-jailed-for-20-years-for-previous-police-attack/ar-BBA6dUM?li=BBr5KbJ&ocid=mailsignout


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    #348
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    yoke wrote: »
    To put it another way - if a child has one immigrant parent and one indigenous parent, what culture is the child?

    It's very important that such children feel a part of their society, and not part of some subset of that society. Otherwise they will always identify as "different", and will always have more problems.

    The Vikings successfully integrated into Irish society - but we don't see Viking children do we? I'm sure a lot of Viking traditions made their way into Irish traditions, but all Irish people think of them as "Irish" at this stage - i.e. separation of culture is unlikely to work for a successful immigration policy IMO.

    A good contrast to the Vikings in Ireland story is the story of the Roma/gypsy people in Central Europe, who (for whatever reason) never really culturally integrated into the countries where they live.
    They are still feeling the effects of this with there being negative connotations to being Roma in most European countries - whether they were not able to assimilate because the host people didn't let them inside their towns is irrelevant, the point is that even now people think of them as "them and us".

    So, "invasions", empires, isolationism.

    This is definitely something I'd have to study to make a more informed comment, but it seems to me that the extreme islamist model is really not an "empire" that we can argue will be as beneficial as say, the Roman empire. From my little uninformed perspective.

    You know, if we argue that these things happen, and this how the world goes. Cultural mix, assimilation, etc... via more or less barbaric means.

    I'm all for this shift in perspective to better see what is happening, and factor in history into decision making, but the outcome that I can surmise is not really a fruitful, beneficial one with extreme islamism and Sharia law.


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    #349
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    aled wrote: »
    you group disaffected folks into disaffected areas you get what you get. I lived in Kista, Stockholm for a lot of years and you simply would not go near Husby or Akalla. These areas were simply high rise areas packed with immigrants.
    So what do you expect, a social inclusion policy that socially excludes. And strangely when you look at the other countries targeted by such attacks, all of them have the exact same policy. Just shove migrants into migrant areas and maybe they will go away.
    In Ireland we tend to simply shove the poor people among the poor people. Migration to date has been tolerated. Its poverty we have primarily focused on in this country. So migrants have been free to move within our society. And this is a very good thing. I think our European friends would be rather jealous when they look at our integration policy (bar direct provision which is a disgrace and an embarrassment)

    So why take them in in the first place if you're going to do that? So you can "feel good".

    I have said this before, but the Swedes are hypocrites.

    They should not be taking in refugees just to throw them into ****hole suburbs with no amenities, no aspirations and no hope.

    If the Swedish left or centre, or any left or centrist wing party in Europe, are really truly serious about integration, and not hypocrites, then these refugee families need to be living side by side with middle class families to build aspiration. The kids need to be going to middle class schools and mixing with middle class kids. Not travelling in from direct provision housing to go to middle class schools and then returning. No, they should be then returning to live in the same areas that their middle class class mates live in.

    To me it's vital that this is done because otherwise you're going to get more situations like we have seen throughout Europe. No go areas, violence in these suburbs, high unemployment etc. You're dangling a carrot and then taking it away.

    Taking refugee families in may make people "feel good" but that is only half the job done.


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    #350
    inforfun
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 20,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭inforfun


    2f94b3d43a290a1c9d191d9e6b9a951d.png

    And here is your cultural enrichment brought to you by your political elite.
    AKA Abou Yousef al-Belgiki

    Jailed for 20 years in 2001 for shooting at police, released in 2016, no doubt for good behaviour.

    At least this Polish minister talks sense


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    #351
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    How exactly does someone who had an "important criminal record", had served supposedly 20 years in prison for an attack similar to what he carried out last night, and was known to authorities, get their hands on such a weapon?


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    #352
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    How exactly does someone who had an "important criminal record", had served supposedly 20 years in prison for an attack similar to what he carried out last night, and was known to authorities, get their hands on such a weapon?

    A phonecall ?

    He was probably seen as no threat on release.


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    #353
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BoatMad wrote: »
    The parallels between the historical persecution of the Jews, and the trends towards similar persecution of Muslims in Europe are there for all to see
    Bull****.
    They are not identical , because of course the demonisation of Muslims is at an early stage , while we are fully aware of the course of Jewish persecution by European nationalists
    Demonisation. But of course.
    My comments were to draw parallels between what some people are saying here ( detainment, deportation , demonisation ) and very similar parallels in the European Jewish history of persecution from the mid 19th century onwards in particular ( particularly in Russia )
    Not really, no.
    The holocaust was to some extent a terrible almost logical conclusion , in European persecution of its Jewish minority, clearly there is no parallel , what I am saying is that the route being followed , if some actions were to be carried out by nationalist fanatics begins to look horribly similar too the early stages of the jewish persecution
    Some skinny blinkers ya got on there.


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    #354
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    I think at this stage the Thread title could be changed... Suspected to "Another"


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    #355
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    slightly ironic considering the rising anti Semitic attacks across Europe and the fact that Jews are leaving Europe in record numbers. And that's not as a result of far right groups. Do you care about the Jews who feel they are no longer safe in Europe?

    Also, many Jewish people are highly offended by comparisons of the current situation in Europe to the holocaust.

    I agree with this, I don't think there's a comparison to be made at all, actually. I think there's a huge awareness of the concept of hate attacks against Muslims and members of the media and public have gone as far as to moderate how they report on terrorism because of the fear of reprisal attacks (a journalist on Newstalk a couple of years ago spoke of her moral compass and what she saw as the media's responsibility to contain inflammatory facts) and seem highly sensitive to the potential to feed into ant Muslim sentiment, the Jews were never afforded protection, while the Jews are bearing the brunt of anti Israel feeling and hatred and attacks from Islamists.


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    #356
    inforfun
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 20,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭inforfun


    Deleted User wrote: »
    How exactly does someone who had an "important criminal record", had served supposedly 20 years in prison for an attack similar to what he carried out last night, and was known to authorities, get their hands on such a weapon?

    That is not so hard as long as you dont think the "lone wolf" theory has any credibility.
    He doesnt have to have that AK in possession for weeks in order to use it last night.
    His pals might have given it to him 5 minutes before.


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    #357
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    BoatMad wrote: »
    The same comments were said of the IRA ( we dont talk to terrorists , etc )

    No, the IRA did have demands, which Britain refused to countenance, the Islamists make it very clear that they revile the West and its culture. The IRA did not wage war on Europe in the same way ISIS do, it wasn't even remotely similar, which you claimed earlier. For someone lecturing another poster on his knowledge of ISIS's inception you seem unaware of the main points yourself.


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    #358
    Biggest lickspittle on boardz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭Biggest lickspittle on boardz


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Do you believe that refugees from terror regions have integrated well into the Western society as a whole? Why doesn't china Japan and so on have these problems?

    I fully disagree on your stance that carrying on with life as normal will make this problem go away in the long term. It's not isolationist to limit people coming from terror regions who's culture vastly differs from our way of life, it's common sense. Immigration works when the people coming respect our society and want to integrate, I don't believe that's what's been happening for the most part.


    FYI, China does have a problem with ethnic Uighur in the north-west province of Xinjiang. Most of these would not be immigrants, but they would be mostly Muslim. The region has been plagued by a series of knife and car attacks in recent years.

    Which only reinforces your position that there is a major fundamental problem with Islam and other cultures.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-26414014


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    #359
    Hande hoche!
    Registered Users Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭Hande hoche!


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    I think at this stage the Thread title could be changed... Suspected to "Another"
    The shooting makes a change from the vehicular assaults of late.


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    #360
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    BoatMad wrote: »
    because by its nature internment is a scatter gun. Not all domestic muslims are radicalised, however , lock up your son or daughter for a crime that she or he has not yet committed and , hey presto, a radicalised son, daughter, mother and father and all the attached family

    the result is more domestic orientated violence

    Go down that rabbit hole , and keep going, and the result is " the final solution ", because all these do is make the problem worse. The British realised this ( as did DeValera, when he considered it as well )

    Just like Trump and Healthcare , " its complicated" and simplistic , paper napkin , knee jerk reactions are likely to make it worse and not better


    The comment mentioning internment made reference to Islamism sympathisers, not ''all Muslims'' so it's pointless to go further with this comment. Logically there would be steps in between suspecting and confirming and interning, we have the means to do so now.


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    #361
    MysticMonk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 903 ✭✭✭MysticMonk


    Deleted User wrote: »
    How exactly does someone who had an "important criminal record", had served supposedly 20 years in prison for an attack similar to what he carried out last night, and was known to authorities, get their hands on such a weapon?


    The same way criminals source weapons all over the world.

    They buy them or borrow them from other criminals.

    Were you implying that he walked into a gun shop and purchased it legally?

    Or maybe you're implying that he was actually a sinister agent of international Nazism who was furnished with the gun by the french secret service to discredit muslims?

    Just give it a rest,will ya?


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