Suspected Terrorist Attack in Paris

CoolHandBandit

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

am I being unrealistic or simplistic but when we keep hearing "the suspect was known to authorities" - why now aren't all people that are 'on the radar' for one reason or another in each country not checked out now before they cause atrocities (or potentially cause them) - if they are found to be following/supporting ISIS or their gaffs searched and material found where they support this and their ideologies then immediately arrested, detained and if not supposed to be in the country they were arrested in then deported and if they are born in the country arrested for being part of/supporting an illegal terrorist group and locked up? - it might help save lives and prevent future attacks? - I know it might stir up 'presumed innocent until proven guilty' blah blah blah and seem OTT and human rights infringed but haven't we got to this stage now that more has to be done than just waiting for someone to carry out an attack only to be told "the assailant was known to authorities" or "the assailant was known to the authorities but was not deemed a threat" ?

Because there are simply too many to keep track of. The media gives us the "it's a tiny minority" spiel but it's just not true.

Widdershins

tomwaterford wrote: »

No..... Look up the road at what happenes when they bought in interment.....it galvanised support for the ira??


Has this been ruled out as having anyting to dp with the week long rioting over police brutality few months ago??
-perhaps someones getting even?

It's probably too late to worry about increasing support for ISIS-and the radical mosques and online propaganda do that already.
Majid Nawaz was imprisoned in connection with his Islamist connections..yet he's now an anti Islamism campaigner and educator.

Mountainsandh

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

am I being unrealistic or simplistic but when we keep hearing "the suspect was known to authorities" - why now aren't all people that are 'on the radar' for one reason or another in each country not checked out now before they cause atrocities (or potentially cause them) - if they are found to be following/supporting ISIS or their gaffs searched and material found where they support this and their ideologies then immediately arrested, detained and if not supposed to be in the country they were arrested in then deported and if they are born in the country arrested for being part of/supporting an illegal terrorist group and locked up? - it might help save lives and prevent future attacks? - I know it might stir up 'presumed innocent until proven guilty' blah blah blah and seem OTT and human rights infringed but haven't we got to this stage now that more has to be done than just waiting for someone to carry out an attack only to be told "the assailant was known to authorities" or "the assailant was known to the authorities but was not deemed a threat" ?

Marine Le Pen proposes much more robust and expedite ways to expel these people from France.
Yes, there could be the odd case where the decision was unfair or hasty, but I would think that the safety of hundreds is worth a handful of unfair cases and the subsequent litigation that might go with them.
At the moment, it seems like Europeans are so determined to not be unfair to a certain few, that they are unfair to many. Namely, the victims and potential victims.


She is a bit of a scary character, at the head of a party with a dangerous ideology.
However, she has booted out her own father, and I don't think she is a despot. She has the guts to propose strong action.
If she is elected, democratically, she can also be shoved aside, democratically, in a few years time.

greencap

CoolHandBandit wrote: »

In the space of just over four weeks Europe has had 4 terrorist attacks.

Westminster, Uk.
Stockholm, Sweden.
Borussia Dortmund, Germany.
Paris, France.

This is the reality now for Europe. Well done Merkel and Co.

Merkel was responsible for a post brexit attack by a muslim born in Britain 40 years ago?

BoatMad

Widdershins wrote: »

It's probably too late to worry about increasing support for ISIS-and the radical mosques and online propaganda do that already.
Majid Nawaz was imprisoned in connection with his Islamist connections..yet he's now an anti Islamism campaigner and educator.

because by its nature internment is a scatter gun. Not all domestic muslims are radicalised, however , lock up your son or daughter for a crime that she or he has not yet committed and , hey presto, a radicalised son, daughter, mother and father and all the attached family

the result is more domestic orientated violence

Go down that rabbit hole , and keep going, and the result is " the final solution ", because all these do is make the problem worse. The British realised this ( as did DeValera, when he considered it as well )

Just like Trump and Healthcare , " its complicated" and simplistic , paper napkin , knee jerk reactions are likely to make it worse and not better

BoatMad

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Marine Le Pen proposes much more robust and expedite ways to expel these people from France.
Yes, there could be the odd case where the decision was unfair or hasty, but I would think that the safety of hundreds is worth a handful of unfair cases and the subsequent litigation that might go with them.
At the moment, it seems like Europeans are so determined to not be unfair to a certain few, that they are unfair to many. Namely, the victims and potential victims.


She is a bit of a scary character, at the head of a party with a dangerous ideology.
However, she has booted out her own father, and I don't think she is a despot. She has the guts to propose strong action.
If she is elected, democratically, she can also be shoved aside, democratically, in a few years time.

You last line made me laugh , You have been watching whats happening in Turkey, and also made me think of all the tyrants " elected democratically " :mad:

WinnyThePoo

BoatMad wrote: »

You last line made me laugh , You have been watching whats happening in Turkey, and also made me think of all the tyrants " elected democratically " :mad:

I muse at the idea of fighting extremism with extremism.

tomwaterford

Widdershins wrote: »

It's probably too late to worry about increasing support for ISIS-and the radical mosques and online propaganda do that already.
Majid Nawaz was imprisoned in connection with his Islamist connections..yet he's now an anti Islamism campaigner and educator.

Id imagine bringing in interment might strengten their support base though??


The only thing about mosques and radical preachers is its up to muslims to tackle them as they are just in effect talking blogs (the preachers) as islam is different to other religion's in that it deosnt have a central command structure


Not like when you go mass in ireland and same letters etc being read, 30 miles down the road the preaching could be massively different in islam afaik

Mountainsandh

BoatMad wrote: »

because by its nature internment is a scatter gun. Not all domestic muslims are radicalised, however , lock up your son or daughter for a crime that she or he has not yet committed and , hey presto, a radicalised son, daughter, mother and father and all the attached family

the result is more domestic orientated violence

Go down that rabbit hole , and keep going, and the result is " the final solution ", because all these do is make the problem worse. The British realised this ( as did DeValera, when he considered it as well )

Just like Trump and Healthcare , " its complicated" and simplistic , paper napkin , knee jerk reactions are likely to make it worse and not better

Except your reasoning doesn't hold if the number of people likely to radicalize is restricted, and limited.

Things might have to get worse before they get better.
Not possible with open borders however.

Mountainsandh

BoatMad wrote: »

You last line made me laugh , You have been watching whats happening in Turkey, and also made me think of all the tyrants " elected democratically " :mad:

France is not Turkey thank you very much.

BoatMad

Mountainsandh wrote: »

France is not Turkey thank you very much.

nor Germany in the 1930s..............hmmmmm

Mountainsandh

They now believe there was a second attacker who got away.

BoatMad

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Except your reasoning doesn't hold if the number of people likely to radicalize is restricted, and limited.

Things might have to get worse before they get better.
Not possible with open borders however.

The evidence is that the majority of attacks are from native born , or from people resident long before the current refugee crisis

This fact seems to escape you entirely and you seek to transfer the problem onto refugees ( I'm not saying there is no issue here, just that they are not the primary cause of terror attacks to date )

number of people likely to radicalize is restricted, and limited.

IM not sure what you mean by " limited " , the available settled muslim populations in Europe runs into many millions. Thats one big internment camp .

Mountainsandh

BoatMad wrote: »

nor Germany in the 1930s..............hmmmmm

Absolutely.
Look, you can scaremonger as much as you want, but right now the more serious threat is firmly in the other camp.

I am still waiting for your solution to this whole mess ?
Measures ?
Ok, Middle East. Stop everything. So then what happens ?

I'm discussing things here, it seems you are more intent on firing out little snippets to counter my arguments, or stating opinions as facts.

Go on, convince me you have better alternatives.
I don't see the point in taking part in this thread otherwise, and giving out about it too.

BoatMad

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Absolutely.
Look, you can scaremonger as much as you want, but right now the more serious threat is firmly in the other camp.

I am still waiting for your solution to this whole mess ?
Measures ?
Ok, Middle East. Stop everything. So then what happens ?

I'm discussing things here, it seems you are more intent on firing out little snippets to counter my arguments, or stating opinions as facts.

Go on, convince me you have better alternatives.
I don't see the point in taking part in this thread otherwise, and giving out about it too.

of Im not saying the solution is easy. personally the West should have completely withdrawn from the Syrian conflict and let Assad fall to ISIS and a combination of moderate rebels .

The situation is extraordinary difficult now to extract the West from, largely because ISIS ( or the next Sunni group) will form again and the incumbents are unable to control that unless Iran gets overtly involved and that risks SA getting involved

we are going to have to live with this chaos for some time , and more innocents will get killed Im afraid ( on all sides and no side )

Andy From Sligo

internment could force their family and friends to lend more support to ISIS sure - but the message has to be relayed strongly now that if you really are innocent and you are not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to fear - if your flat / house is searched and you have stuff on your laptop / have been researching ISIS and radicalism and have weapons and or bomb making material or go on rallies and marches supporting ISIS or any other illegal radical ideology that purports to kill or maim innocent members of the public or whoever we are going to come down on you like a ton of bricks - no questions asked, you can be sure of it!

tomwaterford

BoatMad wrote: »

of Im not saying the solution is easy. personally the West should have completely withdrawn from the Syrian conflict and let Assad fall to ISIS and a combination of moderate rebels .

The situation is extraordinary difficult now to extract the West from, largely because ISIS ( or the next Sunni group) will form again and the incumbents are unable to control that unless Iran gets overtly involved and that risks SA getting involved

we are going to have to live with this chaos for some time , and more innocents will get killed Im afraid ( on all sides and no side )

Why don't they just kill all of Isis?


There just a brand of bigots basically (curiously much like those who hate Muslims. ....lock both groups into a room until 1 side wins)

BoatMad

tomwaterford wrote: »

Why don't they just kill all of Isis?


There just a brand of bigots basically (curiously much like those who hate Muslims. ....lock both groups into a room until 1 side wins)

I wasnt aware that they all go around with a "logo" on their back

but if they do, sure its easy as you say

Mountainsandh

BoatMad wrote: »

The evidence is that the majority of attacks are from native born , or from people resident long before the current refugee crisis
This fact seems to escape you entirely and you seek to transfer the problem onto refugees ( I'm not saying there is no issue here, just that they are not the primary cause of terror attacks to date )
IM not sure what you mean by " limited " , the available settled muslim populations in Europe runs into many millions. Thats one big internment camp .

The fact above does not escape me at all.
I'm too lazy to look for my own post above, so I will just rephrase for you. I can rephrase some more if needed, but it's a little bit repetitive.

There are many Muslims in France/Europe right now.
In order to deal with said Muslims who may become radicalized, we need to put a stop to immigration right now.
Once the borders are closed, we will have to deal with "many", but then not "more".

It's not really internment when the people are already in France, and I'm not for any kind of internment really.

Muslims in France : number A.
Once the borders are closed, triage can happen.
Those that committed crimes are deported. (minus number
Those that are suspected of having been radicalized are investigated. If there is enough evidence (by Marine Le Pen criteria, or other president's criteria) they are deported. (minus number C)
Those that preach extremism are deported. (minus number D)
Those that seem to be in the process of radicalization are closely watched, or taken charge of, or intervened on, supported, whatever is proposed by people more clever than I. (that's number E)
Those that have nothing to do with extremism live on safer lives (along with non-muslims). (that's number F)

So A - (B+C+D) = EF

EF is a much more manageable number of people to integrate than A.

Of course if there is a steady stream of incomers, that messes up any chance of dealing with said numbers. Millions, as you say.

So.
Millions, plus ?
or just, millions.

BoatMad

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

internment could force their family and friends to lend more support to ISIS sure - but the message has to be relayed strongly now that if you really are innocent and you are not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to fear - if your flat / house is searched and you have stuff on your laptop / have been researching ISIS and radicalism and have weapons and or bomb making material or go on rallies and marches supporting ISIS or any other illegal radical ideology that purports to kill or maim innocent members of the public or whoever we are going to come down on you like a ton of bricks - no questions asked, you can be sure of it!

You obviously choose , for some reason, to ignore the very evidence of what happened on this island in the past . The justification for internment in NI, read exactly as you outlined it.

Also in general , people do not like the idea, that " if you haven't done anything wrong , youve nothing to fear" as a precursor to having all your rights interfered with.


At the end of the say , we have laws and fundamentally " due process". Throw that book out the window and we are nothing more then a version of " Sharia Law"


Interning innocent people , is the route to a massive radicalisation of the indigenous Muslim population,

Then whats the next step ????

tomwaterford

BoatMad wrote: »

I wasnt aware that they all go around with a "logo" on their back

but if they do, sure its easy as you say

I imagine wandering the desert with ak 47s and walking around under the flag of Isis is usually a good indicator?

Mountainsandh

BoatMad wrote: »

of Im not saying the solution is easy. personally the West should have completely withdrawn from the Syrian conflict and let Assad fall to ISIS and a combination of moderate rebels .

The situation is extraordinary difficult now to extract the West from, largely because ISIS ( or the next Sunni group) will form again and the incumbents are unable to control that unless Iran gets overtly involved and that risks SA getting involved

we are going to have to live with this chaos for some time , and more innocents will get killed Im afraid ( on all sides and no side )

So you have no solution.
Withdraw from the ME, and wait it out.

People over there suffer, we suffer, that's it ?

But alternatives like M. Le Pen are "oh so scary" ?
I find your status quo a lot scarier.

BoatMad

Mountainsandh wrote: »

The fact above does not escape me at all.
I'm too lazy to look for my own post above, so I will just rephrase for you. I can rephrase some more if needed, but it's a little bit repetitive.

There are many Muslims in France/Europe right now.
In order to deal with said Muslims who may become radicalized, we need to put a stop to immigration right now.
Once the borders are closed, we will have to deal with "many", but then not "more".

It's not really internment when the people are already in France, and I'm not for any kind of internment really.

OK so now we must deal with them using conventional judicial processes, Habeas Corpus etc " I'm not for any kind of internment really."

Muslims in France : number A.
Once the borders are closed, triage can happen.
Those that committed crimes are deported.

Just exactly where do you deport native born criminal muslims, ? and the evidence is that many terrorist attacks are from people with no previous criminal convictions

Those that are suspected of having been radicalized are investigated. If there is enough evidence (by Marine Le Pen criteria, or other president's criteria) they are deported. (minus number C)

Now we're are in " minority report " territitory , i.e. " thought crimes and while you have dismissed internment , your solution is merely foreign internment ,

of course you neglect to deal with native born muslims and just exactly where do you deport all these people to. ( French Guiana ?)

Those that preach extremism are deported. (minus number D)

I see a parisian borne radical is deported to....... ( oh I see Marseille)

Those that seem to be in the process of radicalization are closely watched, or taken charge of, or intervened on, supported, whatever is proposed by people more clever than I. (that's number E)

Now we have a thought police state, rather like the Stasi successfully engendered in East Germany , neighbour informing on neighbour etc

Those that have nothing to do with extremism live on safer lives (along with non-muslims).

albeit throughly radicalised by the flagrant treatment of their Muslim citizens

if isnt wasn't serious Id still be laughing

Somedude9

This is political terror, it's not gratuitous, although it appears so. For some of its sick, sad perpetrators it is, but they're pawns. Islamic terrors raision d'etre especially in Europe is to sow discord & raise tensions, which will then make more people susceptible to their bull****, thus garnering them more influence & legitimacy. Be careful you don't give them what they want.

BoatMad

Mountainsandh wrote: »

So you have no solution.
Withdraw from the ME, and wait it out.

People over there suffer, we suffer, that's it ?

But alternatives like M. Le Pen are "oh so scary" ?
I find your status quo a lot scarier.

I have listened to Le Pens proposal , nothing about it is judicial , or even workable,

The fact is until the issues of the wests involvement in the ME are played out and the massive impact our military intervention has had, There is no easy solution.

Turning Europe into a police state and rounding up citizens for " thought crimes " is the final nail in Europe coffin. We might as well shoot ourselves at that point , because in effect we have restarted the " Final solution "

BoatMad

Somedude9 wrote: »

This is political terror, it's not gratuitous, although it appears so. For some of its sick, sad perpetrators it is, but there pawns. Islamic terrors raision d'etre especially in Europe is to sow discord & raise tensions, which will then make more people susceptible to their bull****, thus garnering them more influence & legitimacy. Be careful you don't give them what they want.

+1, and as in other political terror campaigns, ultimately everyone is going to have to sit around a table ( eventually )

gitzy16v

BoatMad wrote: »

+1, and as in other political terror campaigns, ultimately everyone is going to have to sit around a table ( eventually )

What will Isis negotiations involve?
Do you think they will stop killing infidels if they get a little caliphate in Syria and Iraq?
Please don't say you think Isis can be negotiated with "around a table".
Shocking to think some here feel we should negotiate with Isis,it's Isis ffs.

greencap

LePen would end the EU.

The fall out would be another global recession.

Life in Europe would stink.


And then one day, with LePen elected, and European businesses dying from struggling with 28 different currencies, and 28 different rule books, and with border taxes on all our goods .... w'akbar .... another attack.

Somedude9

BoatMad wrote: »

+1, and as in other political terror campaigns, ultimately everyone is going to have to sit around a table ( eventually )

I'm not sure these particular people do table talks & nor should we.

Gamebred

A possible solution is to start by tearing down all these Muslim ghettos in France and Belguim, breeding grounds for terror and full to the brim of sympathizers, death sentences for anybody preparing or assisting a plot in anyway.