Suspected Terrorist Attack in Paris

WinnyThePoo

gitzy16v wrote: »

What will Isis negotiations involve?
Do you think they will stop killing infidels if they get a little caliphate in Syria and Iraq?
Please don't say you think Isis can be negotiated with "around a table".
Shocking to think some here feel we should negotiate with Isis,it's Isis ffs.

The Americans negotiated with the Taliban.

BoatMad

Somedude9 wrote: »

I'm not sure these particular people do table talks & nor should we.

The same comments were said of the IRA ( we dont talk to terrorists , etc )

Mountainsandh

BoatMad wrote: »

OK so now we must deal with them using conventional judicial processes, Habeas Corpus etc " I'm not for any kind of internment really."

Just exactly where do you deport native born criminal muslims, ? and the evidence is that many terrorist attacks are from people with no previous criminal convictions

Now we're are in " minority report " territitory , i.e. " thought crimes and while you have dismissed internment , your solution is merely foreign internment ,

of course you neglect to deal with native born muslims and just exactly where do you deport all these people to. ( French Guiana ?)
I see a parisian borne radical is deported to....... ( oh I see Marseille)
Now we have a thought police state, rather like the Stasi successfully engendered in East Germany , neighbour informing on neighbour etc
albeit throughly radicalised by the flagrant treatment of their Muslim citizens

if isnt wasn't serious Id still be laughing

Extradite, exile. Since their allegiance is to IS, any country that recognizes IS should do.
Intelligence currently identifies people they think are in danger of being radicalized. Is that thought police ? If thought police is a mum ringing alarm bells about her son watching videos of people getting their heads chopped off, then I'm all for it.
This is not about someone becoming a Buddhist. This is about extreme Islam, and criminal intent. We have to make a judgement call however unpalatable it seems to be for you. I have no problem making this call, just like we have no problem judging paedophilia. If your interpretation of your religion encourages you to kill yourself or others, or to oppress them, then yep. Thought police all the way for me, I call foul, and I will try and change your mind.

You see, you still have no solution, and seem to hang around here to just counter argue and ridicule others' points.

The situation is more pressing than that. This thread is about yet another killing, and probably more to come.
You seem to look at it as an opportunity to score points, to give out about the past, fair enough.

gitzy16v

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

The Americans negotiated with the Taliban.

That worked well did it?
Afghanistan on holidays this year,yeah?

ChikiChiki

Think that's LePen in which is a good thing for France at this stage.

gitzy16v

BoatMad wrote: »

The same comments were said of the IRA ( we dont talk to terrorists , etc )

The IRA haha,
try again,the comparison is laughable.

Manny89

BoatMad wrote: »

The same comments were said of the IRA ( we dont talk to terrorists , etc )

The IRA had a pretty clear aim.

How do you propose we negotiate with people who want to slay unbelievers and create a Caliphate?

wakka12

CoolHandBandit wrote: »

In the space of just over four weeks Europe has had 4 terrorist attacks.

Westminster, Uk.
Stockholm, Sweden.
Borussia Dortmund, Germany.
Paris, France.

This is the reality now for Europe. Well done Merkel and Co.

5.
St Petersburg metro bombings

WinnyThePoo

gitzy16v wrote: »

That worked well did it?
Afghanistan on holidays this year,yeah?

I was pointing out that discussions happen.

No need for the snarky response , doesn't you.

BoatMad

Gamebred wrote: »

A possible solution is to start by tearing down all these Muslim ghettos in France and Belguim, breeding grounds for terror and full to the brim of sympathizers, death sentences for anybody preparing or assisting a plot in anyway.

death sentences etc

Perhaps you dont read much history , but I draw your attention to the plight of Jews in Europe from 1890 onwards. The similarities with actions that many here suggest , are chilling similar,

dehumanisation : They are not like us and never will be
ghettoisation: we dont want them living amongst us
blame :They are all to blame for our troubles ( Jews got the brunt of the blames for the financial collapse of the interwar years )
demonisation: We are all going to be taken over by them , sharia law etc
Proselytisation : the arrival of cultural fanactics suggesting " solutions ", deportment , internment
Mainstreaming: The views fanatics begins to be accepted by the un thinking masses , ( my mother begins to mumble about "them Moslems")
Electoral progress: certain politicians see a route to power on the back of fear
Suspension of civil process: In power, " if you have done nothing m you have nothing to fear", while civil liberties are infringed and suspended at every turn, supported by fear mongers
Enactment: detainment, mass movements , deportations
The final solution :

---

Somedude9

BoatMad wrote: »

The same comments were said of the IRA ( we dont talk to terrorists , etc )

Yes and they should have stuck by it.

BoatMad

Manny89 wrote: »

The IRA had a pretty clear aim.

How do you propose we negotiate with people who want to slay unbelievers and create a Caliphate?

Its a false reading of ISIS and others philosophy that its solely religious , rathe just like it was a convient crutch that blamed NI issues on religion

Yes there is a religious aspect , but its much more then that

converting or slaying us is not the aim, any reading of ISIS rise to power will show you that they are far more focused on the issues in their immediate vicinity then the " West "

And just like the IRA bombing London, ISIS and other radicals , beleive that " bringing home the conflict in the ME to the civilians of the west " will force a change of policy in the ME. The " bomb them to the table " strategy type of thngs

While the comparison is not total , the tactics are not dissimilar , the level of brutality is a reflection of the horrendous situation in Iraq, Syria etc

wakka12

BoatMad wrote: »

The same comments were said of the IRA ( we dont talk to terrorists , etc )

Are you seriously suggesting that ISIS wishes should even be considered

BoatMad

Somedude9 wrote: »

Yes and they should have stuck by it.

sure and the North would be still inflames to this day , with increasing casualties, increasing radicalisation and sectarianisation of the population

DO you seriously believe just what you typed

greencap

wakka12 wrote: »

5.
St Petersburg metro bombings

How does Merkel get blamed for a British born 40 year old.

How does Merkel get blamed for Russian border control and policing.

BoatMad

wakka12 wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that ISIS wishes should even be considered

Have you any clue as to how ISIS arrived on the scene , and why they received huge support from the Sunni population

DO you not accept there are reasons for so called terror groups to exist, or is it that 100,000s of people suddenly woke up one morning and said , " lets make bombs "

Have you any idea of the history and the process behind this situation

Mountainsandh

BoatMad wrote: »

death sentences etc

Perhaps you dont read much history , but I draw your attention to the plight of Jews in Europe from 1890 onwards. The similarities with actions that many here suggest , are chilling similar,

dehumanisation : They are not like us and never will be
ghettoisation: we dont want them living amongst us
blame :They are all to blame for our troubles ( Jews got the brunt of the blames for the financial collapse of the interwar years )
demonisation: We are all going to be taken over by them , sharia law etc
Proselytisation : the arrival of cultural fanactics suggesting " solutions ", deportment , internment
Mainstreaming: The views fanatics begins to be accepted by the un thinking masses , ( my mother begins to mumble about "them Moslems")
Electoral progress: certain politicians see a route to power on the back of fear
Suspension of civil process: In power, " if you have done nothing m you have nothing to fear", while civil liberties are infringed and suspended at every turn, supported by fear mongers
Enactment: detainment, mass movements , deportations
The final solution :

---

Still debunking the other side. Your alternative ?
If I understand right, and I'm not being sarcastic, your alternative is "wait it out".

You can debunk a hundred arguments, but your alternative is still as awful, and has the same hurt potential, as a reactive policy. I'm not sure that you understand that.

There are as many ifs and buts in waiting it out as there are in taking action.

BoatMad

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Still debunking the other side. Your alternative ?
If I understand right, and I'm not being sarcastic, your alternative is "wait it out".

You can debunk a hundred arguments, but your alternative is still as awful, and has the same hurt potential, as a reactive policy. I'm not sure that you understand that.

There are as many ifs and buts in waiting it out as there are in taking action.

Yes , we have no choice but to " wait it out " , while trying over maybe a decade or two to resolve the issues in the ME .

the first step is to stop military involvement etc

in the meantime, just like the British instituted certain security protocols, but stopped short of widespread retaliation against ordinary irish people ( consideration was given to suspending the CTA , selective deportment, selective internment, but wiser heads prevailed ) , we have to protect what liberties we have seek to create situations where radicalism does not prosper etc

( its worth noting that Britain still has on its statue books the ability to deport Irish people to Ireland, while Ireland has no such laws applying ti UK citizens here

Gamebred

The best solution for middle east hell holes like Syria Iraq and Afghanistan is nuke them and turn them into a carpark, you'd be putting the people out of their misery and saving resources.

ceadaoin.

BoatMad wrote: »

death sentences etc

Perhaps you dont read much history , but I draw your attention to the plight of Jews in Europe from 1890 onwards. The similarities with actions that many here suggest , are chilling similar,

dehumanisation : They are not like us and never will be
ghettoisation: we dont want them living amongst us
blame :They are all to blame for our troubles ( Jews got the brunt of the blames for the financial collapse of the interwar years )
demonisation: We are all going to be taken over by them , sharia law etc
Proselytisation : the arrival of cultural fanactics suggesting " solutions ", deportment , internment
Mainstreaming: The views fanatics begins to be accepted by the un thinking masses , ( my mother begins to mumble about "them Moslems")
Electoral progress: certain politicians see a route to power on the back of fear
Suspension of civil process: In power, " if you have done nothing m you have nothing to fear", while civil liberties are infringed and suspended at every turn, supported by fear mongers
Enactment: detainment, mass movements , deportations
The final solution :

---

slightly ironic considering the rising anti Semitic attacks across Europe and the fact that Jews are leaving Europe in record numbers. And that's not as a result of far right groups. Do you care about the Jews who feel they are no longer safe in Europe?

Also, many Jewish people are highly offended by comparisons of the current situation in Europe to the holocaust.

BoatMad

Gamebred wrote: »

The best solution for middle east hell holes like Syria Iraq and Afghanistan is nuke them and turn them into a carpark, you'd be putting the people out of their misery and saving resources.

Im glad you didnt control trident missiles in the UK during the 70s , Dublin be a fine skating ring for polar bears during the nuclear winter resulting.

You cant be serious in suggesting, wiping out 90 million ( MILLION) people is a solution , Id counter by saying wiping out the US might be equally effective in stoping the terrorist attacks on Europe !!!!:rolleyes:

BoatMad

ceadaoin. wrote: »

slightly ironic considering the rising anti Semitic attacks across Europe and the fact that Jews are leaving Europe in record numbers. And that's not as a result of far right groups. Do you care about the Jews who feel they are no longer safe in Europe?

Also, many Jewish people are highly offended by comparisons of the current situation in Europe to the holocaust.

Sorry m you are saying the persecution of the jews in the period before ww2, would offend Jews in comparing them to a hypothetical persecution of Muslims,


thats a rather strange accusation , if anything Id expect them to see exactly the parallels

slightly ironic considering the rising anti Semitic attacks across Europe and the fact that Jews are leaving Europe in record numbers. And that's not as a result of far right groups. Do you care about the Jews who feel they are no longer safe in Europe?

err, is its that you just saw the word " Jew " and couldnt be bothered to read any further , I was comparing the historical persecution of the Jews in Europe ( by white nationalists in general ) to a perceived approach that would be similar to the persecution of innocent Muslims, if actions mentioned here were carried out

ceadaoin.

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry m you are saying the persecution of the jews in the period before ww2, would offend Jews in comparing them to a hypothetical persecution of Muslims,


thats a rather strange accusation , if anything Id expect them to see exactly the parallels



err, is its that you just saw the word " Jew " and couldnt be bothered to read any further , I was comparing the historical persecution of the Jews in Europe ( by white nationalists in general ) to a perceived approach that would be similar to the persecution of innocent Muslims, if actions mentioned here were carried out

Yes, many Jewish people do find the likening of "islamophobia" to the persecution Jews endured offensive. Probably because what passes as such bears no resemblance to the holocaust. How is that surprising to you?

Has anyone actually suggested anything like the measures imposed on Jews for Muslims today?

BoatMad

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yes, many Jewish people do find the likening of "islamophobia" to the persecution Jews endured offensive. Probably because what passes as such bears no resemblance to the holocaust. How is that surprising to you?

Has anyone actually suggested anything like the measures imposed on Jews for Muslims today?

The parallels between the historical persecution of the Jews, and the trends towards similar persecution of Muslims in Europe are there for all to see

They are not identical , because of course the demonisation of Muslims is at an early stage , while we are fully aware of the course of Jewish persecution by European nationalists

My comments were to draw parallels between what some people are saying here ( detainment, deportation , demonisation ) and very similar parallels in the European Jewish history of persecution from the mid 19th century onwards in particular ( particularly in Russia )


The holocaust was to some extent a terrible almost logical conclusion , in European persecution of its Jewish minority, clearly there is no parallel , what I am saying is that the route being followed , if some actions were to be carried out by nationalist fanatics begins to look horribly similar too the early stages of the jewish persecution

old_aussie

murpho999 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

They should be hunted down the like the rats they are. Starting with ISIS supporters who live on this Island.[/QUOTE]

How do you find them?

We find them, guilty of treason, and then we shoot them at dawn.

BoatMad

old_aussie wrote: »

murpho999 wrote: »

We find them, guilty of treason, and then we shoot them at dawn.

we could round them up into cattle wagons ...........

old_aussie

So, has anyone got any new updates on the latest shooting in Paris?

Any confirmation on whether there was a second attacker or not.

yoke

These are complex problems and so they will not have fast solutions.

You will have one group saying what I've just said above, ie. that there is no simple solution, and let's just work on making what we have better and more efficient - more efficient education system, more efficient economic system, more efficient and fair legal system, and slowly over time the people will integrate as it is natural for humans to do so over time.

And you will have another group saying "so you don't have a solution then? Why don't you listen to mine?? It's simple..."
- followed by a stupid, "simple" solution - e.g. "deport everyone! Kill everyone! Then 50 years later when you get invaded by China or India (over some resource dispute perhaps), because you became isolationist and fell behind in science, technology, and your economy was ****, and you can't do anything about it, then it's too late to defend democracy and freedom.

History repeats itself, incidentally India and China are classic examples of civilisations that each were world-leading for hundreds of years st some point in history, and then started thinking they were better than everyone else and finally saw huge decline because they became isolationist - and resulted in being invaded down the line by randomers effectively.

Isolationism leads to decline, the only other option is to join up (as the EU is trying to do with Europe) and focus on making our entire society better, and realise we can't stop all terrorist attacks but education and a fair and just economic and legal system which allows everyone a good opportunity at a decent life is the real way of stamping out terrorism in the long term.
Separating based on nations (or "ethnicities") will always lead to conflict in the long term.

take everything

All the hallmarks of atheist fundamentalism this one.

Hank Scorpio

yoke wrote: »

Isolationism leads to decline, the only other option is to join up (as the EU is trying to do with Europe) and focus on making our entire society better, and realise we can't stop all terrorist attacks but education and a fair and just economic and legal system which allows everyone a good opportunity at a decent life is the real way of stamping out terrorism in the long term.
Separating based on nations (or "ethnicities") will always lead to conflict in the long term.

Do you believe that refugees from terror regions have integrated well into the Western society as a whole? Why doesn't china Japan and so on have these problems?

I fully disagree on your stance that carrying on with life as normal will make this problem go away in the long term. It's not isolationist to limit people coming from terror regions who's culture vastly differs from our way of life, it's common sense. Immigration works when the people coming respect our society and want to integrate, I don't believe that's what's been happening for the most part.