RIP Martin McGuinness

Jamiekelly · 21-03-2017 8:12pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

The second part is a fair point. I don't agree with the first part. As a whole the British security forces in the North didn't use conventional warfare.

Soldiers fathering entire families linked to suspected IRA members while "on deployment".

Cant be to sure if he's in the RA? Well he does have a sister so its time to take one for Queen and Country and get you're weapon out..

100 percent taxpayer funded. Got to give it to the Brits, they're pragmatic at the very least.

FrancieBrady · 21-03-2017 8:15pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

If you are unable to see the difference between a force generally attempting to adhere to the conventions of warfare and a force which attempts to just generally cause mayhem, we're not going to have a fruitful discussion.

Ah bless.
Are these the 'conventions of warfare' invented in part by the British at the foundation of the UN? Or Marquis of Queensbury style ones maybe?

The conventions of warfare that Britain among others ignore when it suits them?

I agree, we probably aren't going to have a fruitful discussion.

I don't distinguish between the forces involved in the conflict here, they all used terror when it suited them.

stockdam · 21-03-2017 8:16pm

flutered wrote: »

stockdam wrote: »

Ok by that reasoning then, I can understand. I knew idiots who joined paramilitaries and one who was arrested and put into the Maze. I had the same upbringing and "repression" but never for one minute thought of resorting to violence. Neither Adams or McGuinness nor any other paramilitary had more right than I had to feel they they needed to kill anyone.........it was just wrong.

what would have been the result of things if the burning of streets of houses in nationalist areas had been allowed to continue, the b men the army etc were not interested, circumstanses alter cases, castro mandella etc, the we had the opposite from peron for one

Hard to say but both sides were at it and people on both sides had to leave their houses. People who had lived side-by-side for years suddenly had to leave. Tensions at that time were very high. As usual when people go out onto the streets, the yobs start to escalate things and they turn violent.........both sides blame each other.

The security forces were badly trained and equipped and didn't help to quell the violence. The B-Specials were one-sided.
Then when bullets start to be fired things started to get out of hand.

The whole thing should have been handled better.

FrancieBrady · 21-03-2017 8:18pm

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Seen the BBC's report, the mainland uk one not the NI one. A reporter asked the father of a bombing victim, i think it was Parry, whether he considered McGuinness a friend?

His answer was, surprise surprise, no.

Top class journalism there from the BBC. The same BBC that runs numerous segments almost daily on the BBC World News channel about "What can the media do... better?/ to make people trust us again?/ to not alienate viewers?

I swear the more and more I watch major news networks during big events the more I understand why Trump's "dumb media" line resonates.

Have to say it was great to hear Pierce Doherty put Aine English back in her box when she tried the 'man with two lives' bollixology.

Fratton Fred · 21-03-2017 8:20pm

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Seen the BBC's report, the mainland uk one not the NI one. A reporter asked the father of a bombing victim, i think it was Parry, whether he considered McGuinness a friend?

His answer was, surprise surprise, no.

Top class journalism there from the BBC. The same BBC that runs numerous segments almost daily on the BBC World News channel about "What can the media do... better?/ to make people trust us again?/ to not alienate viewers?

I swear the more and more I watch major news networks during big events the more I understand why Trump's "dumb media" line resonates.

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Soldiers fathering entire families linked to suspected IRA members while "on deployment".

Cant be to sure if he's in the RA? Well he does have a sister so its time to take one for Queen and Country and get you're weapon out..

100 percent taxpayer funded. Got to give it to the Brits, they're pragmatic at the very least.

When I read your first post, I thought you were simply mistaken. when I read your second, I realised you were being deliberately obtuse.

Please take time and effort to listen to the whole interview. there is another tv interview on the BBC website as well

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39337136

andekwarhola · 21-03-2017 8:25pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here's the lovely Norman spreading aspersions about the testimony of the accusers of his mate Jimmy Saville,
In fact, try and read the whole article without getting nauseous would be my challenge! :rolleyes:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jun/15/norman-tebbit-interview

I roundly dislike people like Tebbit as much as the next person but his wife was left disabled after the Brighton Bombing.

We're hardly going to turn to him for a balanced quote, are we?

Some people in here ironically cheerleading McGuiness might be better off making the brave intellectual and political journey that he did.

cnoc · 21-03-2017 8:28pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have to say it was great to hear Pierce Doherty put Aine English back in her box when she tried the 'man with two lives' bollixology.

Who is Áine English?

cavan4sam · 21-03-2017 8:30pm

Rip Martin
Your legacy has left a better country for all and your dream of a united ireland is not far away
Tiocfaidh Ar La

FrancieBrady · 21-03-2017 8:36pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

I roundly dislike people like Tebbit as much as the next person but his wife was left disabled after the Brighton Bombing.

We're hardly going to turn to him for a balanced quote, are we?

Some people in here ironically cheerleading McGuiness might be better off making the brave intellectual and political journey that he did.

In amongst the trite moralising there is there support for what Tebbit had to say today?

Are you asking me to give him a pass because he was one of thousands of victims?

Sorry, no can do.

bigbrotherfan · 21-03-2017 8:36pm

I've had more time for McGuinness than Adams. He apparently received praise from Ian Paisley's widow today, which shows that he achieved cross party recognition, in recent years. I'm not a fan of Sinn Féin but in recent years, McGuinness has achieved a status I would not have expected 20 years ago. I would like to think that while the awful events of the troubles happened and should never be forgotten, that he will also be remembered for the work he has done in the past 20 years, since the Good Friday Agreement.

FrancieBrady · 21-03-2017 8:37pm

cnoc wrote: »

Who is Áine English?

The lady that presents the RTE radio drive time show. Maybe I got the name wrong?

21-03-2017 8:38pm

One of the biggest criticisms that are coming from the relatives of the victims of the IRA, is that McGuinness didn't do more to apologise to them and to assist with explanations around the various actions of the IRA through the years, especially concerning the "missing".

McGuinness didn't have much time to do anything about that towards the end of his life when illness hit- I wonder is Gerry Adams considering his legacy at this point and exploring what he might do differently in the months and years ahead to influence that.

andekwarhola · 21-03-2017 8:39pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In amongst the trite moralising there is there support for what Tebbit had to say today?

Are you asking me to give him a pass because he was one of thousands of victims?

Sorry, no can do.

You and your ilk love griping about 'themuns'. And you'll be doing it until the grave.

Thank fcuk the likes of McGuiness and Adams were in the driving seat (and not the armchair).

Fleawuss · 21-03-2017 8:42pm

One of the great truths that Sinn Fein have put forward is that if you are going to look at violence, look at all sides in the conflict. There is no "superior" moral position that Ulster Unionism or Toryism starts from. By it's very existence and in the manner of its existence the six counties was a government run terrorist institution. The pompous tones of the Tory commentators presume that they start from the moral high ground. Their presumption and their arrogance are always in inverse proportion to their capacity for understanding and their appetite for justice. They really need to be told, not by SF, but by a republican (because SF do not own that term) that their inability to see beyond the role McGuinness felt obliged to play with the PIRA says a great deal about how little they have moved. Unlike him.

FrancieBrady · 21-03-2017 8:44pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

You and your ilk love griping about 'themuns'. And you'll be doing it until the grave.

Thank fcuk the likes of McGuiness and Adams were in the driving seat (and not the armchair).

Identifies people as 'you and your ilk' and then rants about them going on about 'themuns'

Classic. Well done.

:D

andekwarhola · 21-03-2017 8:47pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Identifies people as 'you and your ilk' and then rants about them going on about 'themuns'

Classic. Well done. :D

Thanks.

Getting beered up to continue the vicarious terrorist campaign later?

FrancieBrady · 21-03-2017 8:52pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

Thanks.

Getting beered up to continue the vicarious terrorist campaign later?

The lols keep coming. You should be on the stage!

bigbrotherfan · 21-03-2017 8:56pm

Again, i'm not Martin McGuinness' No. 1 fan but I acknowledge, whole heartedly the good work he did in the past 20 years. Just saw a guy on the news speaking very disrespectfully about Martin McGuinness and referring to 1969 etc..

I am not in favour of somebody being hypocritical and eulogising somebody, just because that person has died but if somebody hasn't got something nice to say, especially on television, then it would be better to leave it out, when the man is barely cold.

stockdam · 21-03-2017 9:00pm

My name is URL wrote: »

stockdam wrote: »

I had the same upbringing and "repression" but never for one minute thought of resorting to violence.

Well that's your own perogative

Some people will fight back when pushed beyond a certain point. Others are happy to bend over and take it.

Yes and some people know it's wrong to plant bombs in rubbish bins outside of McDonalds or to plant three car bombs in Claudy killing kids. You don't resort to such low levels of depravity to fight back.

Jamiekelly · 21-03-2017 9:02pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When I read your first post, I thought you were simply mistaken. when I read your second, I realised you were being deliberately obtuse.

Please take time and effort to listen to the whole interview. there is another tv interview on the BBC website as well

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39337136

Mistaken? About what? All I implied was asking someone if they're friends with someone who murdered a loved one is not good journalism or even manners. If he said he didn't forgive the man then why would he be friends with him? It seemed to me to be a set question they wanted to ask regardless of what was said beforehand.

My second post was a little OTT admittedly, a joke in poor taste, but then again that did happen in NI

stockdam · 21-03-2017 9:02pm

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Seen the BBC's report, the mainland uk one not the NI one. A reporter asked the father of a bombing victim, i think it was Parry, whether he considered McGuinness a friend?

His answer was, surprise surprise, no.

Top class journalism there from the BBC. The same BBC that runs numerous segments almost daily on the BBC World News channel about "What can the media do... better?/ to make people trust us again?/ to not alienate viewers?

I swear the more and more I watch major news networks during big events the more I understand why Trump's "dumb media" line resonates.

You do know who Parry is? Why would he forgive McGuinness? Would you in the same position?

Ok so you said immediately above that they shouldn't have asked him. I agree as anyone who has lost their 12 year old kid who was not involved would answer.....you are hardly going to be friends with the person who was involved in the organisation who killed him.

holyhead · 21-03-2017 9:12pm

Sad to learn of the passing of Martin McGuinness. I grew up at a time when if you saw Northern Ireland appear on your Aertel it invariably was down to an attrocity. While acknowledging he had a paramilitary past he was a key figure in the peace which NI enjoys today. Unlike Adams McG never denied being in the IRA. His warm relationship with the Paisley family speaks well of his humanity. We down in the Republic can probably never fully understand the backdrop to life in NI in the last 1960's early 70's which kicked off the modern troubles in NI.
I think he reached out to the Unionist community in a way Arlene Foster would do well to replicate to the Nationalist community if she is capable of doing so. His meeting the Queen was commendable all things considered. He did it because he genuinely sought to represent all the people of NI.
Is life in NI better for Martin McGuinness having been there. On balance yes. His military past was hideous but ultimately the people of NI owe a debt of gratitude to MMcG. R.I.P.

FrancieBrady · 21-03-2017 9:18pm

stockdam wrote: »

You do know who Parry is? Why would he forgive McGuinness? Would you in the same position?

Ok so you said immediately above that they shouldn't have asked him. I agree as anyone who has lost their 12 year old kid who was not involved would answer.....you are hardly going to be friends with the person who was involved in the organisation who killed him.

Some people can forgive and others can't. That is fine, and I don't think McGuiness would have had a problem with that.
The problem arises when victims cannot let their desire for retribution go and work for peace. Arlene Forster resorted to tried and tested conflict/war rethoric only a month or so ago, Norman Tebbitt did it today.
Colin Parry, like McGuiness made huge efforts to build peace and found a kinship in that.

timthumbni · 21-03-2017 9:19pm

I would be being hypocritical if I said I had much respect for McGuiness. Much more than I would have for Adams but believe me that isn't much of a compliment.
His past IRA career unfortunately is simply too much to simply ignore or gloss over and it should hardly be surprising that he will cause a wide range of differing opinions to be aired.

The peacemaker description thing is puzzling for me and a bit bull****ty as he and his ilk were responsible for much of the horror that befell Northern Ireland and indeed the rest of the the U.K. and the republic too. I mean am I or others supposed to thank mcguinness and his fellow republicans for suddenly deciding they didn't get off on bombing or shooting people anymore???

Also Martin would have known a lot about past attrocities carried out by the IRA in Londonderry. But as he said himself he would rather die than give up the IRA code. So his secrets go to the grave with him.

A family man I have no doubt will be missed greatly by them.

But let's too not forget the many, many victims who were murdered by the IRA under his watch whilst he supported or was part of the IRA, even in his own area.

Jamiekelly · 21-03-2017 9:22pm

stockdam wrote: »

You do know who Parry is? Why would he forgive McGuinness? Would you in the same position?

Ok so you said immediately above that they shouldn't have asked him. I agree as anyone who has lost their 12 year old kid who was not involved would answer.....you are hardly going to be friends with the person who was involved in the organisation who killed him.

I completely agree....I was NOT attacking Parry, I was attacking the BBC for their extremely tabloid-esque leading question.

Parry has more dignity, empathy, honour and understanding than any politician on this island today.

Gael23 · 21-03-2017 9:32pm

His contribution to peace was immense and will have a lasting impact on NI and he deserves credit for that. However his IRA past cannot be forgotten and I'm sure not everyone will mourn his death. Nevertheless 66 is too young to die and unlike Ian Paisley he deserves to rest in peace.

DanielODonnell · 21-03-2017 9:35pm

McGuinness was a true Gael, he will go down in the history books alongside the likes of Owen Roe O'Neill and Aodh O'Donnell as notorious men of Ulster.

It is a great pity that fools are allowed air time on the news like the loyalists who said that it was McGuinness and IRA who caused the war and he wouldn't have had to build peace in the first place if it wasn't for the IRA.

Then when you turn over to RTE you have Kenny standing in front of a painting of Michael Collins, you just have to laugh at that sort of thing.

murpho999 · 21-03-2017 9:46pm

Been looking at British print media's coverage and its main focus has been on McGuinness's role as IRA Commander rather than his role as Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.

Comments section of Daily Mail is truly shocking, saying he is no loss and how disappointed they are in the Queen for sending a sympathy message.

Daily Mail Article

Same paper also has a shocking article about James McCleans tweet about Martin McGuinness.

What they fail to realise that it would be normal for a head of state to send a condolence message on the passing of a government minister which is exactly what Martin McGuinness was as Northern Ireland is a constituent part of the UK.

They are ignoring his achievement in bringing the IRA to a ceasefire and ultimately the Good Friday Agreement and subsequent peace.
Do they not realise in a war situation which NI was in for over 20 years that the options were to surrender, win militarily or negotiate a truce, which involved dealing with the enemies leaders which is exactly what happened in Northern Ireland.

What alternative did they want?

The truth is that the vast majority of British people have no idea what actually happened in NI during the troubles and think that the British only had a benign role. They see themselves as sole victims of IRA attacks whilst not knowing what happened in Northern Ireland.

I would also argue that the vast majority have no idea what's occuring in Northern Ireland politics today and I do wonder if this general apathy and ignorance will eventually lead to disillusionment among Unionists and Northern Ireland leaving the UK.

J Cheever Loophole · 21-03-2017 9:56pm

A friend of mine is a school principal up here, and when Martin McGuinness was Minister for Education, he invited him to the prize giving. Many were addressing him as Mr McGuinness and he was having none of it - "My name is Martin!" was his reply. He ended up in the kitchen after the ceremonies were over, rolling up his sleeves and helping the tea ladies do the dishes.

Therein was a small insight into the man - a man who did not let power or status go to his head - was straight, honest and showed humility - someone who could put himself in the shoes of the other person - all qualities that built the character and were so important when it came to the hugely important negotiations that followed our Troubles. How important were his quailites? He was central to a peace process that may have saved up to 2,000 lives or more, on the basis of Troubles based deaths.

On top of that, he created a peaceful society up here that has allowed the next generation to grow up in an environment that is much more 'normal' than the one I grew up in. There are many of course who will point to his military past. I can understand the anger and reluctance of many people - yes, even Norman Tebbit, who have been at the receiving end of the violence, although I would add that Tebbit has regualrly shown himself to be an odious individual, as evidenced by quotes such as 'Get on your bike..' to the unemployed of 1980s Britain.

My hope would have been, if I were in someone like Tebbit's situation, that I would have been able to forgive, but who knows? What I do know is that I have untold admiration for Jo Berry who lost her Dad at Brighton, and who emphasised strongly that Tebbit did not speak for her.

What of his IRA membership? Once again, I would be reluctant to judge, as I was not in a position where gerrymandering denied my people the right to have their voice heard in a City where they were the majority, who lived in abject poverty as second class citizens, and who were bludgeoned off the road at Burntollet when they tried to stand up for their rights. Watching that now - some fifty years later - still makes me livid!!

There are a number of political commentators up here who feel his passing has left a void in the tricky negotiations that are to come in the next week or two - their insight suggests that his negotiating skills will be sorely missed in trying to reach a compromise, and that in itself relfects on his role in achieving peace.

I would have to say that I was always anti-violence, and that I only felt able to vote for Sinn Fein after the Good Friday agreement. Indeed even now, as a Nationalist, they are still not assured of my vote every time.

However despite that, I feel like my community has lost a leader - a statesman if you like - and somehow there is a sense or feeling of being more vulnerable tonight, particularly when it comes to the tricky political negotiations ahead. His was a steady hand at the wheel - someone who you felt you could trust - and that will be missed.

His passing has left a void.

Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

munsterlegend · 21-03-2017 10:03pm

DanielODonnell wrote: »

McGuinness was a true Gael, he will go down in the history books alongside the likes of Owen Roe O'Neill and Aodh O'Donnell as notorious men of Ulster.

It is a great pity that fools are allowed air time on the news like the loyalists who said that it was McGuinness and IRA who caused the war and he wouldn't have had to build peace in the first place if it wasn't for the IRA.

Then when you turn over to RTE you have Kenny standing in front of a painting of Michael Collins, you just have to laugh at that sort of thing.

As I said previously given the dinosaurs that lead unionism today imagine what they were like 40 to 50 years ago abusing power. Things are changing though and much faster than we all imagined given recent election results and other factors such as brexit.

McGuinness's legacy is a peaceful island and the realisation finally even in unionism that the past can't be repeated nor will they get away with it anymore.