RIP Martin McGuinness

davycc

Genuinely in shock here,

A former freedom fighter turned peacemaker supreme.

Rip martin.

nacho libre

retalivity wrote: »

Rip mairtin, worked hard for peace in his later years and for derry all his life

Now watch the DUP make a complete mess of being respectful in his passing.

I thought Arlene and Ian were respectful with their comments

R P McMurphy

Jelle1880 wrote: »

It seems to be a common tactic.

Mention the atrocities that were done under his command and you're bound to get a response about the Brits. Because that somehow makes it ok I guess ?

I think Hitchens summed it up perfectly about Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams, and it probably works for McGuinness too:

The same man that subsequently went on to be a prominent cheerleader for the invasion of Iraq.

Lady Spangles

Snickers Man wrote: »

What do you expect? The IRA nearly killed his wife in the Brighton bombing and left her permanently paralysed. He was badly injured too and was dug out from the rubble in full view of the TV cameras. It's ghoulish to expect of him that he harbour any kind thoughts towards the IRA or its senior commanders.

He's entitled to his feelings.

Mind you, so are the many people in working class communities, especially mining communities, who were devastated by the policies of the Thatcher government of which he was the most unapologetic member of cabinet. Very much a "dry" rather than a "wet" Tory.

When he goes there will be more than a bit of "good riddance to the bastard" being voiced. And most of it will be in English accents. Indeed it was from (several) English people that I heard the joke sequence:
"What do you call a Welshman with a seagull on his head?
Cliff
What do you call an Englishman with a hotel on his head?
Norman Tebbitt"

Although I completely understand Tebbit's anger, the BBC seem to be repeating his sentiments ad nauseum. Colin Parry, on the other hand, whose young son was killed by the IRA seems to be showing a lot more grace at least.

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote: »

It was horrendous. And brutal. But you have to remember the context. The day (or two) before, a republican funeral had been attacked by a Loyalist named Michael Stone who fired shots and threw grenades at mourners in a graveyard, killing a few of them.

Unsurprisingly, people were somewhat on edge at the next set of Republican funerals. Then they come across a car parked with two strange men sitting inside as the cortege approaches. Stewards demand to know what is going on.

The car tries to extricate itself from the situation. It gets blocked in by taxis. People approach it. The passenger pulls out a gun. Everybody scatters. Then the braver among them rush the car again. One guy, clearly identifiable by his red hair as one "Cleeky" Clarke jumps on to the roof and starts bashing the window with a tyre iron. The men are dragged out of the car, taken away, identified as soldiers, stripped and shot dead.

Horrendous.

They were probably NOT SAS however. As they were signallers, the informed speculation is that they were there to attempt to bug the crowd to pick up conversations for intelligence purposes. There was a helicopter overhead (as always in Northern Ireland during the Troubles) but the technology of the time would not enable sound recording from such a distance. So it appears likely the two guys were sent in undercover with sophisticated equipment to bug the mourners.

The notion that two guys on RnR were driving through West Belfast in the vicinity of the Falls Road on that weekend of all times is just farcical. Not even the Brits are that stupid.

Incidentally, the same Cleeky Clarke who was filmed bashing in the windows and was later convicted for his role in the killings had previously during the Michael Stone incident in Milltown cemetry risked considerable injury by rescuing a journalist who had come under suspicion of being involved in the shootings by the hysterical crowd. The journalist had been running away to find a payphone (mere local reporters didn't have mobile phones in those days) to file a report and the crowd thought he was one of the attackers. They jumped on him and were in the process of trying to kick him to death when Clarke, who recognised him, dived in on top of him and shielded him while screaming at the crowd to leave him alone.

There's footage of it somewhere.

Oh and I am no Sinn Fein supporter. Nor was I ever. But remember the context of the times.

Oh i remember alright, i grew up very close to the border from the early 80s,
I remember watching the Michael Stone incident also.
I just found the extreme violence of this particular incident had the biggest impact on me.
I couldn't watch it without feeling physically sick, and i am far from soft!
Anyway, kinda off topic.....

Arcade_Tryer

Sinn Fein are really on a roll right now.

Recent elections North and South
United Ireland
Martin McGuinness death

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I see the deflectors are hard at work.

Self praise is no praise

Thomas__

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I see the deflectors are hard at work.

It certainly takes efforts to counter your point of view. Everything concerning NI and the Troubles is just then cristal clear when one takes one side of the narrative and follows it unquestioned. It´s always been a complicated matter, full of one-sided narratives, full of lies, twists and turns and every side blamed the other for it, but in fact, they were all to blame for what happened, the Shinners, the Provos, the Unionists, the Loyalists and last but not least the British Security Forces along with the RUC. In my view, those three decades of the Troubles in NI were the most worst display of a civil war which barely one could have escaped without living in danger to get killed one way or another, depending on where one lived and those in towns and cities were left in much more of a danger than those living in rural areas, not so close to the border.

flutered

Snickers Man wrote: »

What do you expect? The IRA nearly killed his wife in the Brighton bombing and left her permanently paralysed. He was badly injured too and was dug out from the rubble in full view of the TV cameras. It's ghoulish to expect of him that he harbour any kind thoughts towards the IRA or its senior commanders.

He's entitled to his feelings.

Mind you, so are the many people in working class communities, especially mining communities, who were devastated by the policies of the Thatcher government of which he was the most unapologetic member of cabinet. Very much a "dry" rather than a "wet" Tory.

When he goes there will be more than a bit of "good riddance to the bastard" being voiced. And most of it will be in English accents. Indeed it was from (several) English people that I heard the joke sequence:
"What do you call a Welshman with a seagull on his head?
Cliff
What do you call an Englishman with a hotel on his head?
Norman Tebbitt"

the same guy who told the unemployed to, get on you bikes, it says a lot really

Jelle1880

R P McMurphy wrote: »

The same man that subsequently went on to be a prominent cheerleader for the invasion of Iraq.

Because he (like many others) believe that simply removing Saddam would be sufficient. He underestimated the deep sectarian divide in Iraq (and the complete mess the US and it's allies would make of the war).

Why that somehow disqualifies his opinion on Adams and Paisley, I don't know. But I guess Iraq must be an easy argument to ignore his other points.

flutered

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, they didn't need to deny they were SAS, that was a story made up by the men that stripped, tortured, beat, shot and stabbed them.

They were not in uniform (because it was kind of unsafe driving around in an army uniform) and were armed because they were soldiers. They weren't even supposed to be there, they had only recently arrived in the north and got lost. They were told to avoid the area.

trained soldiers who did not know which direction they went, even girl guides are able to figure that out

flutered

bubblypop wrote: »

You should go down to the special criminal court, there's people in there every day if the week stating stuff like this.

how come we do not have our media telling us that,
given the times that were there it took some guts to do that, but then the hatred against the provos in the south was confined to bth fg and lab

flutered

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I see the deflectors are hard at work.

its gonna be hard on this thread, so it is surly an all hands on deck from this afternoon onwards

Thomas__

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Sinn Fein are really on a roll right now.

Recent elections North and South
United Ireland
Martin McGuinness death

I am still waiting for Gerry Adams to announce his resignation from being President of SF. It´s already like waiting for Godot, but one day it´ll come.

R P McMurphy

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Because he (like many others) believe that simply removing Saddam would be sufficient. He underestimated the deep sectarian divide in Iraq (and the complete mess the US and it's allies would make of the war).

Why that somehow disqualifies his opinion on Adams and Paisley, I don't know. But I guess Iraq must be an easy argument to ignore his other points.

He shows absolutely no insight into the origins of the troubles and seems to absolve the British government of any role whatsoever. I particularly like his sentence on the origins of the troubles, no mention that the sectarian statelet funded and supported by the British government brought about the conditions for conflict to take hold and that the British army ensured it would by murdering the people marching behind those banners.

"a better idea—that of a nonsectarian politics that shed no blood—was on offer as well. It was inscribed on the noble banners of the civil rights movement that marched in Derry in October 1968, and it was fought for in the parliaments of London and Dublin"

He ended up a shill for the neoconservatives. Most people knew Iraq would descend into chaos and opposed intervention

nacho libre

Don't Chute! wrote: »

Haven't you heard Audrey? The members simply will not countenance any criticism of the cult. It's not how they do things in Murder Inc.

That can be said for rabid apologists of state sponsored terror too, though. Would you and Audrey ever describe some of the actions of one Tony Blair as heinous?
Personally i believe, with Audrey's first post in mind, Tony did some great things, but we should not gloss over the dark side to him.
The same with Martin. That said if i grew up in a community where i was treated like a second class citizen, i certainly would not be citing poetry and throwing roses at those who were enabling this to happen. I don't know though if i would have taken up arms. The IRA did terrible things, Martin acknowledged this and expressed regret over it several times. Some government leaders have never done this with regard to their actions that caused the death and injury of thousands of people.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-northern-ireland-39184255

Jesus the unionist voice painful and bitter as ever.

Jelle1880

R P McMurphy wrote: »

He shows absolutely no insight into the origins of the troubles and seems to absolve the British government of any role whatsoever. I particularly like his sentence on the origins of the troubles, no mention that the sectarian statelet funded and supported by the British government brought about the conditions for conflict to take hold and that the British army ensured it would by murdering the people marching behind those banners.

"a better idea—that of a nonsectarian politics that shed no blood—was on offer as well. It was inscribed on the noble banners of the civil rights movement that marched in Derry in October 1968, and it was fought for in the parliaments of London and Dublin"

He ended up a shill for the neoconservatives. Most people knew Iraq would descend into chaos and opposed intervention

Some of you need to make up your mind.

Was he a shill for the British establishment or did he want a unified Ireland ?

Jelle1880

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Some of you need to make up your mind.

Was he a shill for the British establishment or did he want a unified Ireland ?

He was always an incoherent mess of opinion and arseholery and isn't missed regardless of any topic we might be discussing

FrancieBrady

Powerful and timely reminder of who he was and where he came from.

'He did not go to war, war came to him'.
................................................Gerry Adams

Jelle1880

Deleted User wrote: »

He was always an incoherent mess of opinion and arseholery and isn't missed regardless of any topic we might be discussing

What nonsense. His support for a unified Ireland has never changed.

And whatever he may have said about Iraq (or whatever other stuff people come up with to ignore his points about the Troubles) doesn't change that one bit.

I miss Hitchens a hell of a lot more than McGuinness. Only one has the blood of innocents on his hands.

flutered

flutered wrote: »

how come we do not have our media telling us that,
given the times that were there it took some guts to do that, but then the hatred against the provos in the south was confined to bth fg and lab

There's court reports of all cases in the special criminal court in newspapers and online.
They are just not the big headlines anymore

Jayop

RIP Martin. You'd expect it'll be one of the biggest funerals in the country in recent years. A man who devoted his entire life to his people and will be remembered as such. History will look upon him very fondly.

Jayop

Reading the humility and decency in some of the comments, especially those from many who had lost loved ones during the troubles to IRA attacks gives me great hope.

Zebra3

Fratton Fred wrote: »

say what?

The voices of those who feel they have the right to slaughter brown and black skinned people across the globe yet look down on MMcG as scum.

Not too difficult for most educated people to understand.

You think the British Establishment and white supremacism aren't linked?

Thomas__

Zebra3 wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

say what?

The voices of those who feel they have the right to slaughter brown and black skinned people across the globe yet look down on MMcG as scum.

Not too difficult for most educated people to understand.

You think the British Establishment and white supremacism aren't linked?

More so today than in the past decades.

Thomas__

Jayop wrote: »

RIP Martin. You'd expect it'll be one of the biggest funerals in the country in recent years. A man who devoted his entire life to his people and will be remembered as such. History will look upon him very fondly.

Maybe more on a rate of 50/50% depending on the author and his background who writes about him.

Jelle1880

Zebra3 wrote: »

The voices of those who feel they have the right to slaughter brown and black skinned people across the globe yet look down on MMcG as scum.

Not too difficult for most educated people to understand.

You think the British Establishment and white supremacism aren't linked?

Which parts of 'the British Establishment' ?

I mean, it's a bit vague isn't it.

stockdam

Jayop wrote: »

Reading the humility and decency in some of the comments, especially those from many who had lost loved ones during the troubles to IRA attacks gives me great hope.

Yes let's not forget those who suffered directly. These people suffer daily yet the vast majority do not get involved in spreading further suffering like the IRA/INLA/UVF/UDA/RHC etc. Peace and dialogue is always the way forward.
MMcG turned his back on this and I hope that the supporters of any active organisation do likewise as it's the only solution.

steddyeddy

Zebra3 wrote: »

The voices of those who feel they have the right to slaughter brown and black skinned people across the globe yet look down on MMcG as scum.

Not too difficult for most educated people to understand.

You think the British Establishment and white supremacism aren't linked?

Well in fairness British people aren't a homogeneous group. Unionists however are quite strongly reminiscent of white supremacists.