RIP Martin McGuinness

JP Liz V1

RIP

steddyeddy

timthumbni wrote: »

I would be being hypocritical if I said I had much respect for McGuiness. Much more than I would have for Adams but believe me that isn't much of a compliment.
His past IRA career unfortunately is simply too much to simply ignore or gloss over and it should hardly be surprising that he will cause a wide range of differing opinions to be aired.

The peacemaker description thing is puzzling for me and a bit bull****ty as he and his ilk were responsible for much of the horror that befell Northern Ireland and indeed the rest of the the U.K. and the republic too. I mean am I or others supposed to thank mcguinness and his fellow republicans for suddenly deciding they didn't get off on bombing or shooting people anymore???

Also Martin would have known a lot about past attrocities carried out by the IRA in Londonderry. But as he said himself he would rather die than give up the IRA code. So his secrets go to the grave with him.

A family man I have no doubt will be missed greatly by them.

But let's too not forget the many, many victims who were murdered by the IRA under his watch whilst he supported or was part of the IRA, even in his own area.

I think this is the difference with those of the unionist tendency. The nationalists have been much better at reaching out to the other community and looking for peace. Gusty Spence, founder of a the loyalist movement died a while back. You could see the most die hard republicans say rest in peace on that thread and acknowledge the efforts he made towards the peace process.

Inside the mind of a unionist is an echo chamber; they are victims always, never the cause of the problem always the victim. Never trying to reason or understand other cultures. As I said the unionist Orange Order, LondonDerry screaming acolytes were the ones who stood against people like my uncle in the SDLP. Unionists opposed the peaceful solution so yes they should be thankful that the violence stopped. Especially since unionists like the DUP opposed the GFA.

Mental Mickey

Did I just hear Arlene Foster having a little "dig" in her "tribute" just now on the News?

JP Liz V1

I would love to see a biopic film of his life

Jelle1880

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think this is the difference with those of the unionist tendency. The nationalists have been much better at reaching out to the other community and looking for peace. Gusty Spence, founder of a the loyalist movement died a while back. You could see the most die hard republicans say rest in peace on that thread and acknowledge the efforts he made towards the peace process.

Inside the mind of a unionist is an echo chamber; they are victims always, never the cause of the problem always the victim. Never trying to reason or understand other cultures. As I said the unionist Orange Order, LondonDerry screaming acolytes were the ones who stood against people like my uncle in the SDLP. Unionists opposed the peaceful solution so yes they should be thankful that the violence stopped. Especially since unionists like the DUP opposed the GFA.

Yes you

Here's the thread when Spence passed away:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74583530

As you can see, it's full of people who are happy he died. Funny enough, that first post by Einhard sums up McGuinness too. As if somehow killing people and then stopping is worthy of praise.

Your attempt to make one side seem morally superior doesn't hold up to scrutiny it seems.

Help!!!!

Nelson Mandela whose MK killed 14,000 people in 4 years was revered around the world by celebrities & probably most of the people who are calling Martin McGuinness a terrorist etc.
If I was alive & living in the North during those times I would probably have done the same thing. At least Martin saw later in life that peace was the only way forward.

steddyeddy

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Here's the thread when Spence passed away:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74583530

As you can see, it's full of people who are happy he died. Funny enough, that first post by Einhard sums up McGuinness too. As if somehow killing people and then stopping is worthy of praise.

Your attempt to make one side seem morally superior doesn't hold up to scrutiny it seems.

McGuinness shook hands with the Queen. Arelene Foster refused to go to an Irish football match or GAA game. We also have Sammy Wilson commenting on "ethnics" and the hated of homosexuals. I'm sorry but the unionist community do hate a lot better.

Junkyard Tom

steddyeddy wrote: »

Inside the mind of a unionist is an echo chamber; they are victims always, never the cause of the problem always the victim.

It's remarkable - they caused the troubles and attitudes like that of the person you've quoted and Jim Allister are the type which helped sustain it and were steadfastly against the peace process.

Muff Richardson

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Did I just hear Arlene Foster having a little "dig" in her "tribute" just now on the News?

what did she say? if she did, that's a serious low blow, even for herself and her ilk.

steddyeddy

Here's the thing. McGuiness was a victim of unionist discrimination. Not once did he say no I don't want to work with unionists because of the crimes of the past ect.

Jelle1880

steddyeddy wrote: »

McGuinness shook hands with the Queen. Arelene Foster refused to go to an Irish football match or GAA game. We also have Sammy Wilson commenting on "ethnics" and the hated of homosexuals. I'm sorry but the unionist community do hate a lot better.

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/01/12/news/foster-would-attend-gaa-game-but-rules-out-rising-gesture-379961/

NEW First Minister Arlene Foster has said she would be happy to attend a GAA match if invited

As for Wilson, I am well aware of the backwards ideology of some hardline Unionists when it comes to LGBT rights.

munsterlegend

steddyeddy wrote: »

McGuinness shook hands with the Queen. Arelene Foster refused to go to an Irish football match or GAA game. We also have Sammy Wilson commenting on "ethnics" and the hated of homosexuals. I'm sorry but the unionist community do hate a lot better.

Sammy also not a great fan of global warming. NI unionists are viewed as the very odd distant cousins who hopefully won't keep in contact by Westminster. Even May can't bother visit hoping they will just work it out somehow.

steddyeddy

Jelle1880 wrote: »

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/01/12/news/foster-would-attend-gaa-game-but-rules-out-rising-gesture-379961/





As for Wilson, I am well aware of the backwards ideology of some hardline Unionists when it comes to LGBT rights.

Look at her recent interview on the view. Completely the opposite sentiment. No give, no flexibility and no viewpoint other than hate.

The unionists always had the idea that violence sprang from nowhere. This is the same community who organised the UVF when Ireland was about to get independence. Pot meet kettle.

FrancieBrady

murpho999 wrote:

The truth is that the vast majority of British people have no idea what actually happened in NI during the troubles and think that the British only had a benign role. They see themselves as sole victims of IRA attacks whilst not knowing what happened in Northern Ireland

I would also argue that the vast majority have no idea what's occuring in Northern Ireland politics today and I do wonder if this general apathy and ignorance will eventually lead to disillusionment among Unionists and Northern Ireland leaving the UK.

Very true. 'The Irish Question' was only ever difficult because people were too lazy or disinterested to find out what the problems were.
The GFA is a very simple document.

Rjd2

murpho999 wrote: »

Been looking at British print media's coverage and its main focus has been on McGuinness's role as IRA Commander rather than his role as Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.

Comments section of Daily Mail is truly shocking, saying he is no loss and how disappointed they are in the Queen for sending a sympathy message.

Daily Mail Article

Same paper also has a shocking article about James McCleans tweet about Martin McGuinness.

What they fail to realise that it would be normal for a head of state to send a condolence message on the passing of a government minister which is exactly what Martin McGuinness was as Northern Ireland is a constituent part of the UK.

They are ignoring his achievement in bringing the IRA to a ceasefire and ultimately the Good Friday Agreement and subsequent peace.
Do they not realise in a war situation which NI was in for over 20 years that the options were to surrender, win militarily or negotiate a truce, which involved dealing with the enemies leaders which is exactly what happened in Northern Ireland.

What alternative did they want?

The truth is that the vast majority of British people have no idea what actually happened in NI during the troubles and think that the British only had a benign role. They see themselves as sole victims of IRA attacks whilst not knowing what happened in Northern Ireland.

I would also argue that the vast majority have no idea what's occuring in Northern Ireland politics today and I do wonder if this general apathy and ignorance will eventually lead to disillusionment among Unionists and Northern Ireland leaving the UK.

I thought Channel 4 news tonight was pretty well balanced.

It had numerous different viewpoints featured such as a Sinn Fein member, Allistar Campbell, Eamon Mc Cann and some relatives of those killed by the IRA featured. It was very interesting.

I wouldn't bother with the trashier tabloid right wing newspapers whatsoever when it comes to his death and I say that as someone who was no great fan of the man.

Jelle1880

steddyeddy wrote: »

Look at her recent interview on the view. Completely the opposite sentiment. No give, no flexibility and no viewpoint other than hate.

The unionists always had the idea that violence sprang from nowhere. This is the same community who organised the UVF when Ireland was about to get independence. Pot meet kettle.

I genuinely think you're blinded by your own dislike/hatred for her.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-mcguinness-death-tributes-from-clinton-may-blair-hume-oneill-foster-adams-and-nesbitt-as-sinn-fein-chief-loses-fight-for-life-at-derrys-altnagelvin-hospital-35550730.html

Arlene Foster: 'Pivotal'

Ms Foster said: “He served the people of Northern Ireland as deputy first minister for nearly a decade and was pivotal in bringing the republican movement towards a position of using peaceful and democratic means.”
“In recent years his contribution helped build the relative peace we now enjoy,” Ms Foster said.

“While our differing backgrounds and life experiences inevitably meant there was much to separate us, we shared a deep desire to see the devolved institutions working to achieve positive results for everyone. I know that he believed that the institutions were the basis for building stability.

She described Mr McGuinness as a “much loved husband, father and grandfather”.

“Today's news will come as a shock to many people.

“My thoughts and prayers are with his wife and the family circle at this very painful time of grief and loss,” she added.

“Martin faced his illness with courage and, after stepping away from the glare of the public spotlight I sinerely hope he got the chance to enjoy the things he loved."

Her comment about the victims might have been left out but it's also something that shouldn't be ignored.

FrancieBrady

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I genuinely think you're blinded by your own dislike/hatred for her.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-mcguinness-death-tributes-from-clinton-may-blair-hume-oneill-foster-adams-and-nesbitt-as-sinn-fein-chief-loses-fight-for-life-at-derrys-altnagelvin-hospital-35550730.html



Her comment about the victims might have been left out but it's also something that shouldn't be ignored.

Arlene won't be poking or trolling republicans again I'd imagine. It will be interesting to see if she will go to the funeral though.
I see Enda and the President are.

stooge

Sickening reading that Daily Mail article. It could be argued that Paisley was responsible for more hatred and death in the north than any single person in the history of Northern Ireland...Yet he received generally favourable articles in the UK press upon his passing. The comment above about the England having a romantic or blinkered view of their role in the troubles seems to ring true in this regard...i.e. 'Our fine upstanding English Army gentlemen fighting those murderous republican bastard mucksavages. Best not to mention our own collusion with loyalists, internment without trial and torture chaps.'

Coming back to an earlier point in the thread.... I never felt that i personally could lift a gun to contribute to the conflict in the North, however that did not stop me from understanding and respecting the reasons why so many did during a time of civil rights suppression, discrimination and blatant sectarianism.

I contributed my votes at the ballot box...But without people like Martin McGuinness i doubt those votes (SDLP or SF i may add) would have counted for anything or indeed counted full stop.

please helpThank YOU

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Arlene won't be poking or trolling republicans again I'd imagine. It will be interesting to see if she will go to the funeral though.
I see Enda and the President are.

is Arlene father our mother catholic?

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Arlene won't be poking or trolling republicans again I'd imagine. It will be interesting to see if she will go to the funeral though.
I see Enda and the President are.

It will be a very sad indictment of unionism and lack of leadership if she doesn't go.

Manic Moran

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not sure how you would consider the PIRA's campaign starting out as an insurgency and then not being one in the later stages of their campaign, or it being one whose primary goal was indiscriminate havoc either. Attacks like Narrow Water etc were carried out some 9 or 10 years or so after the PIRA first emerged.

Narrow Water was a legitimate attack, and if only it were far more representative of the PIRA's campaign as a whole, we could be looking at a much less controversial guerrilla campaign. They may not have been as successful, but attacks against the security forces had been much more common in the earlier years, and the nature of the opposition had changed over time.

The following is from the British Army's assessment:

For the purposes of this publication the differences between insurgency and terrorism can be considered as those of mass, means and methods. "Insurgency’ generally includes large numbers of insurgents using moderately conventional weapons, organisations and tactics. By comparison ‘terrorism’ is more selective and often more sophisticated in its means and methods of attack, whilst employing generally smaller numbers. These features broadly apply to Northern Ireland. A different approach would be to define terrorism as a tactic and therefore a terrorist organisation as one which acts largely covertly and deploys terrorism as its main means of violence. Conversely, insurgency presupposes an insurgent body (as OIRA and PIRA could both be described in the early 1970s) which employs fairly direct action to achieve its aims although operating under the cover of the local population. These definitions also generally apply to Northern Ireland.
[Snip]
The next phase, from the summer of 1971 until the mid-1970s, is best described as a classic insurgency. Both the Official and Provisional wings of the Irish Republican Army (OIRA and PIRA) fought the security forces in more-or-less formed bodies. Both had a structure of companies, battalions and brigades, with a recognisable structure and headquarters staff. Protracted firefights were common. The Army responded with operations at up to brigade and even divisional level. The largest of these was Operation MOTORMAN, which was conducted from 31 July to 1 December 1972. It marked the beginning of the end of the insurgency phase. The OIRA declared a ceasefire in 1972 which it has never broken. The PIRA began a process of transforming itself into a terrorist organisation based on a cell structure.

The end of the insurgency merged into the phase characterised by the use of
terrorist tactics. PIRA developed into what will probably be seen as one of the most effective terrorist organisations in history. Professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient, it conducted a sustained and lethal campaign in Northern Ireland, mainland United Kingdom (UK) and on the continent of Europe. From 1980 onwards its political wing, Sinn Fein, involved itself in mainstream politics in Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and the UK.

On the matter of mass and organisation:

Both the OIRA and PIRA grew rapidly; by July 1971 there were estimated to be about 200 members of OIRA and 500 in PIRA. Of those 700 about 130 were in Londonderry and 340 in Belfast. By the end of the year there were over 2,000 – about 1300 PIRA and 750 OIRA - of whom about 880 were active. Those numbers exclude about 400 who had already been interned. By May 1972 there were about 1700 active members of the two organisations, and a further 600 had been interned. Training levels were poor and weapons were scarce. Operation MOTORMAN was effectively the beginning of the end of the insurgent stage of the campaign. Altogether about 10,000 people were involved in the IRA between 1969 and 1972. Many could still be used for support in a number of areas. The numbers remained high through 1973: about 1600 active members plus 200 auxiliaries, 200 women and 600 youths.

However, PIRA was adapting and evolving. For most of Operation BANNER PIRA was the principal cause of violence. By 1978, when it had evolved fully into a cellular terrorist structure of 200-300 active members, there was no shortage of experienced men (and some women) to draw on

"...as relatives of the IRA's victims mourn the loved ones they will NEVER bury"

NEVER! Hehe. There are some fierce thick tools over in that Daily Mail newsroom. Roll on Brexit/end of Empire/Scottish independence/reunification of Ireland.

To paraphrase loyalists in 1974: 'Irish reunification/Scottish independence is only a Brexit away'. Go for it, Britannia - push that button on 29 March 2017.

R P McMurphy

Manic Moran wrote: »

Narrow Water was a legitimate attack, and if only it were far more representative of the PIRA's campaign as a whole, we could be looking at a much less controversial guerrilla campaign. They may not have been as successful, but attacks against the security forces had been much more common in the earlier years, and the nature of the opposition had changed over time.

The following is from the British Army's assessment:


On the matter of mass and organisation:

What that touches on is the reorganisation of the Provos for the long war. It was a structure that was necessary for taking the war to the Brits beyond the initial years. Was inconvenient for the BA that they were well organised, highly motivated and difficult to defeat. Of course would be better for a much larger army if their opponents would simply stand out in the open and be squashed

Jelle1880

Deleted User wrote: »

"...as relatives of the IRA's victims mourn the loved ones they will NEVER bury"

NEVER! Hehe. There are some fierce thick tools over in that Daily Mail newsroom. Roll on Brexit/end of Empire/Scottish independence/reunification of Ireland.

To paraphrase loyalists in 1974: 'Irish reunification/Scottish independence is only a Brexit away'. Go for it, Britannia - push that button on 29 March 2017.

Exactly why is that funny ? They're talking about murdered people whose families to this day don't know where their loved ones are buried.

That has nothing to do with Brexit.

FrancieBrady

Manic Moran wrote: »

Narrow Water was a legitimate attack, and if only it were far more representative of the PIRA's campaign as a whole, we could be looking at a much less controversial guerrilla campaign. They may not have been as successful, but attacks against the security forces had been much more common in the earlier years, and the nature of the opposition had changed over time.

The following is from the British Army's assessment:


On the matter of mass and organisation:

So we make our assessments based on terms of reference designed by the British????

Are you not confident enough to make your own assessments?

Many many Irish people viewed the British as terrorists (to use that useless term) down the years, just the same as the indigenous peoples of the other countries they colonised and pillaged did.
That's all that really matters, you can waffle about high brow definitions until the cows come home tbh.

PhuckHugh

RIP - Very sad- We will never see the likes of his greatness again.

Noddyholder

People reading about Martin MC Guinness story shouldent start with why he joined the IRA , but should start with the horrible wretched violent bigoted state forced upon him and a whole population.

UrbanFret

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

is Arlene father our mother catholic?

Her ancestors are the "soup" kellys, so called because they sold out their religion to avoid starvation during the famine ie the wealthy protestant landlords gave food to anyone that converted.;)

Berserker

Not surprised to hear of his passing this morning. He sounded like a broken man when he addressed the media before stepping down. For all the hurt and pain he caused on these islands, I can't see how he'll ever rest in peace. I always felt that he grew to regret his terrorist past and he understood the consequences of his actions better as time passed by.

Kudos to the British media for giving a balanced view on his life. I understand that many Irish people will never accept, aside from the usual token BS response that they roll out, that the IRA did wrong but the victims of the IRA need to be remembered on a day like this.

Also, delighted to see that the Queen took time to contact the family; a nice touch. She makes me proud to be British.

Junkyard Tom

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Her comment about the victims might have been left out but it's also something that shouldn't be ignored.

I have to say I believe her statement has been written by a couple of SPADs to stop her from sticking her foot in her mouth again. Arlene Foster is incapable of fulfilling that role which works best when a sort of camaraderie builds between the two first ministers.