MAJOR SPOILERS: Matrix reloaded - confusing ?

Ajos

OK, just saw the movie (once). I'm in the "Zion is real" camp, for a couple of reasons over and above the ones already mentioned.

1. Why would Smith care about feeling pain (slicing his hand) if Zion was essentially the same as the Matrix? And why didn't the guy he hacked into change into him, as everybody he took over in the Matrix did?

2. Neo defeated the squids not by fighting them, but by other means. Inside the Matrix, he never had that power - he had to defeat the agents on their own terms. Now it seems he has some kind of connection to the mainframe (I dunno, Bluetooth?) and can manipulate the physical manifestation of the machines (the squids), but in a fundamentally different way than he operates in the system.

I should perhaps mention at this point that I've been wrong before.

²°°³webkev²°°³

How the Matrix could have been Improved..

http://maddox.xmission.com/matrix2.html

(warning: spoilers, kinda)

Tusky

Originally posted by ²°°³webkev²°°³
How the Matrix could have been Improved..

http://maddox.xmission.com/matrix2.html

(warning: spoilers, kinda)

you are allmost as big an eejit for advertising that webby as the guy who made it..

thedrowner

i went to see it today
i really enjoyed it, bt the scene with the architext and neo just flew over my head. i started laughing coz i couldnt undertsnad it, and the whole scene remains a mystery to me now
ah well

Washout

When you have had time to sit down and think about the plot you have to say to yourself "Jesus" thatswasnt just a brilliantly directed action movie. There is alot alot more to the plot...What I caught on the screen while watching it is the thinking that "hang on wheres the story" cause I wascaught up in the action so much.

But that cup of tea later (splurting out a moutful at the moment of realisation that

Zion is a sub program of the matrix and only Neo now knows it and why.

my smile was a heck of a lot bigger than at the end of the usual suspects).

Roll on the third Revolutions

Caesar_Bojangle

Out of ten friends who've seen it, only 3 thought it was the bestest most fantabulous thing ever. The other seven didnt actually grasp the plot until i informed them what had actually happened which forced them rethink their original verdict.

Makaveli

Well I read 9 pages of this thread last night (there were only 9 then), which in hindsight was a bad idea because I couldn't get to sleep with all the theories flying around in my head.
It's a real mind **** to say the least. But it got me thinking about Revolutions.

I went down the route of religion and mythology when thinking about, and how revolutions (perhaps purely conincedental) sound an awful lot like Revelations. So I toddle off and find myself a bible, to read The Revelation. I only read the prologue but one sentence that stood out was
"Do not be afraid, it is I, the First and the Last; I am the Living One, I was dead and look - I am alive for ever and ever, and I hold the keys of death and of Hades."
This was of course Jesus talking to John the Baptist. Now from what I make out, Neo represents Jesus, Morpheus represents John the Baptist, the Architect represents Satan, and Agent Smith is the Antichrist.
Hades, I reckon is the Matrix.

Which leads me to the conversation between Neo and the Architect about the "mother" of the Matrix. Neo says the Oracle and the architect almost laughs it off. Here is where I checked out the mythology. Persephone was kidnapped by Pluto, king of Hades and made her wife. So if Pluto is the king of Hades lets just put an aka Satan here, then if we go with my guess above that the architect is Satan (and the creator of the Matrix therefore father of it) it would nicely make Persephone the mother.

Ok so this is kind of a spoiler for Revolutions although not really, but I'll put it in tags anyway.

I looked at www.imdb.com to see what it had about Revolutions, and it had a cast list. Monica Belluci(sp?) who plays Persephone is in the next film, her husband isnt. Gloria Foster died before filming anything for Revolutions so she has either been replaced or there is no Oracle in the next one, there's nobody cast as the Oracle anyway. This imo just lends more weight to the fact that Persephone is certainly the Mother, and has a lot more to do with the way this film will unravel.

Ok so that was basically me trying to figure out what was going to happen in the next one.
As for this one, well I really did enjoy the film, the four other people I was with hated it. They didn't get any of the story and bascially just thought they were making it up out of nowhere.

One question. If it is all about the illusion of choice, and Neo is faced with which door to take. Surely the Architect knew which one he was going to take before he did it. After all choice is an illusion, everything is fate and already "chosen". He knew what all of Neo's questions would be. So how do we know it's not just a setup. Maybe all of the other Ones took that door too?

I'll post later about what I reckon about Zion, after posting all that I'm a little bit tired.

Skyclad

Humans have choice. Machines dont. The machines cant understand the ability to make choices...hence they arent able to lock everyone up in the matrix.

Dave

Washout

Originally posted by Skyclad
Humans have choice. Machines dont. The machines cant understand the ability to make choices...hence they arent able to lock everyone up in the matrix.

Dave

but does not AI give machine this ability or is the ability still limited due to the inability of humans to program machines with real AI?

Pugsley

Wow Makaveli, you done your homework. Interesting theories tho, we had already sort of concluded that

Persephone was the mother of the matrix

. Interesting never the less.

Makaveli

Yeah I know it had been concluded, I just wanted to try and prove it.

As for my question about choice. What I meant was do they really have a choice? Afterall the Oracle predicted everything that had come true because it had all happened before. If you think back to the first film and when Neo first went to the Oracle she asked him if he believed in fate and he said no. As he was leaving, after she had told him what she had to, she said something along the line of "don't worry, as soon as you leave through that door you'll remember that you don't believe in any of this fate crap, that you're in control of your own life" something similar to that. In this one we learn that for the Matrix to work, the humans had to be given the illusion of choice otherwise they wouldnt accept it.

If choice doesn't exist, and it really is all fate, considering this is the 6th time, if it is so important that he go through the door on his right, then would they not have made it appear like there was a choice when in fact both doors lead to the exact same place? Why run the risk?

They probably don't lead to the same place and there's probably a lot of relevance to the fact that Neo was more human than the others, but it would make you think.

Pugsley

The machines are trying to control humans choice, lieing to him and then buggering him either way wouldnt help the machines at all. The machines are currently controlling the humeans by extermination, they want to control them by understanding them, thats what this is all about methinks.

shinzon

just saw reloaded and id like to add it was a worthy continuation of the matrix franchise, the bros certainly out did themselves with the action sequences, the 15 min car chase was brilliant, it had the right amount of not in your face philosophy.


roll on revolutions

regards

shin

galactus

It's OK: quite watchable. Overrated and overhyped. Some great CGI and action scenes of course. 500 penalty points anyone?

A lot of themes are developed, "in-jokes" all over the shop for philosophy, mythology and IT types. And nothing wrong with that. All a bit too calculated though: reminds me of Joyce on Ulysses "it'll keep the professors busy for years".

The Architect has to be Bill Gates - 6 reboots...

Hyzepher

Are we sure that the Architect is a program? Why cant he be a human?

Hyzepher

Bicky

[stoned]
wait wait wait
If they had blocked off the sun there would be no vegation and hence no oxygen. How did they breath?
Crazy
[/stoned]

GUI_XP

that how to improve the matrix site ..
was so f U cken stupid..

what a fool for posting it imo

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Originally posted by Bicky
[stoned]
wait wait wait
If they had blocked off the sun there would be no vegation and hence no oxygen. How did they breath?
Crazy
[/stoned]

/me opens his mouth..
/me shuts it again
/me opens his mouth again with a smile on his face
/me frowns and closes it again


ok.. wtf, please tell me someone can answer this!

sceptre

Originally posted by Mordeth
/me opens his mouth..
/me shuts it again
/me opens his mouth again with a smile on his face
/me frowns and closes it again


ok.. wtf, please tell me someone can answer this!

You can't really - it's one of the things that bothered me about the first movie (it wouldn't have bothered me at all (on the grounds that it was only a movie) except that they covered quite a few bases in the plot)

Perhaps by 2800 mankind had found some way to extract exygen from the water in a cheap and efficient way. And could make food supplements using replicators. Or some other techie solution. Probably using computers (oops). Don't think about it - ignore it.

vibe666

greenhouses!

with lots of UV lights.

Washout

[stoned]
wait wait wait
If they had blocked off the sun there would be no vegation and hence no oxygen. How did they breath?
Crazy
[/stoned]

This would be bothering to ppl if it werent for the fact that

Zion is part of the matrix

kdevitt

This might clarify a few things... or complicate them further...

Transcript from "Enter The Matrix" video game, Niobe and the Oracle conversation:

ORACLE: Niobe.....

NIOBE: Do I know you?

ORACLE: You know me, though you just may not recognize me.

NIOBE: Are you telling me that you are the Oracle?

ORACLE: I know this may not be easy for any of you, change never is. I wish the face you remember was the face I was still wearing, but that face is gone.

NIOBE: If you are the Oracle, tell me if I believe you are.

ORACLE: You don't right now, but you will.

NIOBE: Are you going to tell me something to make me believe you?

ORACLE: Come on Niobe, you know I can't do that.

N: Why not?

O: Because I cannot make you do anything.

N: At least you sound the same.

O: As I said, you may not recognize the face, but who and what I am underneath remains the same.

N: Can I ask what happened?

O: The Merovingian warned me, that If I made a certain choice it would cost me. He is, among other things, a man of his word.

N: What was the choice?

O: The same one you yourself will have to make: The choice to help Neo or not.

N: Then Neo is still alive?

O: Yes, he touched the source and seperated his mind from his body. Now he lies trapped in a place between your world and ours.

N: Can we free him?

O: Trinity can, but she will have to fight her way through hell to do it.

N: Can I help?

O: That's why I called you. I cannot tell you what is going to happen. All I can do is hope that if given the chance, you will find the courage to do what you can.

N: You once told me you knew everything you needed to.

O: I do. I knew everything from the begining of this path to the end.

N: I don't understand.

O: Even I can't see beyond the end.

N: The end? Are you trying to tell me the world is going to end?

O: Yes. If we cannot save it, it will end.

N: You mean Neo.

O: I mean we. The path of the one is made by the many. I have a role to play just as you have yours.

Bannor

Originally posted by Makaveli
One question. If it is all about the illusion of choice, and Neo is faced with which door to take. Surely the Architect knew which one he was going to take before he did it. After all choice is an illusion, everything is fate and already "chosen". He knew what all of Neo's questions would be. So how do we know it's not just a setup. Maybe all of the other Ones took that door too?

This is the part where 2 + 2 = 5 (101) :cool:

The Oracle asks Neo if he sees Trinity die from her encounter with the agent - he says "No". But we've already seen her pancake the roof of the car in Neo's vision. Obviously Neo has decided to change the course of events and preserve Trinity.

The Oracle leaves and Smith makes an entrance - coincidence??

Smith and the clones tell Neo before they stick their hands in his chest that they're going to steal his purpose.

In the sixth version of the matrix - two things have changed.

1 : Neo's love for Trinity - the reason he takes the door to the left.

2 : Smith's new ability.

It's possible that these are both linked...

If the Oracle knew about the love factor then it's safe to assume that so did the Architect. In which case Smith's ability to imprint himself is an added element of control. If the Matrix isn't rebooted/reloaded then all that is required by the machines to win is to have Smith imprint himself on everyone in the Matrix - this negates the need for the One by eliminating the 0.1% anomally.

It would also explain why the keymaker was deleted. Without the keymaker, the psycho Smith could not get to the Source or Architect and would be trapped within the thing he hates.

Captain Trips

Originally posted by Bannor

If the Oracle knew about the love factor then it's safe to assume that so did the Architect.

He mentioned that this was the case when Neo meets him towards the end.

In which case Smith's ability to imprint himself is an added element of control. If the Matrix isn't rebooted/reloaded then all that is required by the machines to win is to have Smith imprint himself on everyone in the Matrix - this negates the need for the One by eliminating the 0.1% anomally.

But: they refer to Smith as "the anomaly". This could be that a) they don't know the real purpose and are merely following the standard agent purpose, unknowing that Smith is part of a backup plan, or b) he is indeed a new element not previously known c) he is a new element purposely introduced by the Architect to change the course of events because the previous methods have not worked and he needs to change the programming of The One.

It would also explain why the keymaker was deleted. Without the keymaker, the psycho Smith could not get to the Source or Architect and would be trapped within the thing he hates.

This would make sense; that Smith and Neo team up to finally change the unending cycle (shades of Final Fantasy X I suppose ) in Revolutions. And the end result is the joining of human/machine to end the war. Then again, Seraph is most likely the Keymaker's son.

And Persephone's role is not clear; she is clearly the "mother" of the Matrix as when Neo asks "You mean the Oracle", the Architect says "Please...." in that sarcastic you've got to be kidding type of way.

Weirdness in the game is when Persephone asks Ghost to kiss her like he means it.

vibe666

its all about love.

it's hinted in the game that Niobe is still in love with Morpheus, despite being in a relationship with Jason (the General dude who hates Morpheus) and that Ghost is in love with Trinity.

everyone is in love with someone else.

shocking.

Loomer

I can't wait to see Kuato pop out of Morpheous' stomach and say "Open your mind"

But seriously, and I know its nitpicking, but the main thing thats bothered me Is the idea that energy produced by a human "cell" would give off more energy than that required to power the machine that extracts the energy? The machines should of invaded Iraq.

Caesar_Bojangle

Dont know if this has already been said.

My theory is a theory with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

The old man Neo is talking to in Zion about the machines, i reckon to be one of the previous 'Ones' who chose the door to the right to start the matrix over again with the 16 women and 7 men. And i believe these 16 women and 7 men to be the Zion council?

Victor

Superman - the Christian Brother Years

Tenshot

Finally made it to the cinema last night - well worth the wait!

Has anyone noticed the following:

The Architect appears as an elderly gentleman with a pointy beard and dressed in a white suit, bearing a striking resemblance to another gentleman that helps advertise Kentucky Fried Chicken.

Does this mean the Architect actually represents ... the kernel??

(Sorry!)

On a slightly different note:

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the Matrix was more than 100 years old. It's not impossible that the Architect could turn out to be human - presumably the controlled environment of the chambers used to wire people into the matrix could prolong someone's life much longer than if they're exposed to the normal external influences of day-to-day life.

Also, some people seemed to think that agents had infiltrated Zion thus proving Zion was within the Matrix? It certainly looked to me like that summit/meeting/whatever (where Neo wanders off on a hunch) was happening within the Matrix, because everyone was dressed in their 'Matrix' garb), thus it was well within reach of the agents.

Can't wait for the third installation...

Captain Trips

Well I think after finishing the game also that basically ZIo + Matrix are all a big test, probably by humans, to see if humans will live in an artifical environment, because some sort of weird **** happened and humans needed to be put into it.

The first movie was: what is reality
The second movie is: what is choice

I am willing to bet the third movie will be: what is life

And that Neo will realise that the only solution is to mix'n'match the humans and machines and that will be the only way to evolve. Or that life itself is life if that's what you perceive it to be (so, the Matrix may be fake, but what's wrong with that).

That's my take anyway. Smith could mess up the whole program (and that's bringing in shades of Earth and the Hitchhiker's Guide though). In the game there's a bit when Agents leave the chase on the truck with Morpheus to return to going after the "primary target" or something - basically, Morpheus, Niobe, Gjost and the Keymaker are not as important as somebody else, and this couldn't be Neo because they know full well what his deal is.