MAJOR SPOILERS: Matrix reloaded - confusing ?

Saruman

No unplugging from the Matrix transferred him into the Zion mainframe... Although it seems to get complicated... How about if ALL humans are in the Zion mainframe... But they are virtually plugged into the matrix from there which is why they can be recovered.. so when they are unplugged from the Matrix, they awake in Zion where there digital avatar resided in the first place... their real bodies are soemwhere else...

I like the idea of the perfect world outside.. i remember an ep of the outer limits once where a group of humans where kept in a prison camp style place and they had to work... as far as they knew the outside world was run by machines after an AI war... However security was getting lax at the prison as the machines were breaking down and needed the humans to fix them (by force of course) anyway at one point they see this and revolt.. eventually escape but what they find outside is a perfect world... the machines outside having dissapeared centuries ago because they could not repair themselves without humans,,, and the only humans alive were in the prison camp after they wiped them all out!!

weemcd

neo went into a coma because he couldnt process all te information? that is my theory the guy who tried to stab him was he taken over by smith or was that someone else?

Lucutus

One of the Agent Smiths is now in Zion.

There's still tons of clones in the Matrix.

Luc

preytec

is it just me or dose anyone else think it's odd that the machines would wait till THE ONE was found and then start upgrading the agents inside the matrix with a new code but say that they want THE ONE to join with them so they can use his code. like why would they bother with all the upgrades now, i know it's V6 matrix, and i do understand the story, but i just don't think they would have waited till now to test their new agents code's.

plus did anyone kop that when they were talking to the keymaker there are 2 of the chairs that were in a training program out of the 1st matrix film? just before tank loaded the jump program

i still think along the same lines as Saruman's outer limits story, but i don't think there was a war at all, the machines are only doing what they have been programed to do, just like the machines under zion

Skyclad

Neo is nothing but a program himself, he is the child that will grow into the next generation matrix. The matrix AI which is generating Neo #6 is the first to achieve real sentience aka the ability to love.

The third film will see neo realise that he has a choice -free all the humans and die himself by destroying the matrix, or keep the matrix and live with trinity inside.

Dave

Chopper

Spoiler:

Right, so Neo has just realised that the Zion world is another Matrix since he has similar powers like stopping the scentinals ..... BUT he then collapses...
What if... it's all just a computer simulation.?
If Zion is another Matrix then none of the people are "awake" and therefore it's all just another program running.
Since Neo is also another AI program, as soon as he figures this out he is switched off, some kind of failsafe device.

If this is all true, why do Neo and Agenty Smith fight for control of the Matrix in the next movie ? Agent Smith has also become self-aware and is spreading like a virus, outside of his original form. He has become another anomily.

If the machines had decided to start a war with the humans then surely they would have run a simulation first, in fact they would run many many simulations (i.e. The Matrix/Zion) They would need to simulate humans (i.e. Neo, Morphious). The simulations need to be a continous cycle constantly learning from the past, this is why Neo is made to offer to restart and told if he doesn't take it there will be a complete system crash.

I hope I explained that properly. either way I'm going to see it again tonight so I may have a new theory tomorrow !!

Saruman

Originally posted by Skyclad
Neo is nothing but a program himself, he is the child that will grow into the next generation matrix.

I dont think so, remember the creator said that depsite all the tampering he still remains human.... So somewhere there is a Human Mr Anderson plugged in to the matrix and his mind re-written with the code to be "the one"

I wonder though.. on the point of simulation... maybe the whole thing is in fact just a simulation and most humans are not real.. maybe only a few are real and being used in simulation after simulation before the war begins... Maybe in the real world there is no war.. but the machines are thinking there will be one day.

Ivan

Ok, I have to say I quite enjoyed the film, and I think I got the general gist of things especially after going through all those spoilers with peoples opinions.

That said I do have one MAJOR flaw. And thats the dialogue.

As a friend put it, the action scenes are truly spectacular, the story is so engrossing but the dialogue. For the love of GOD...

Example :

After fight scene between neo and the other program that works with the oracle.

Program : I'm sorry but I had to be sure you were the one.

Neo : You could have just asked.

Program : No, you can never truly know someone until you fight them.

Now the same friend said this may be a reference to Agent Smith but it seems to me like pure filler.

Speaking of filler, the love scene/rave at zion. Oh what ****e.

I loved the landing of the nebercanezar (or whatever sp you'd prefer), looked superb.

Also that guy that neo freed that was licking his ass for bout 10 minutes on screen. I think I may actually see the reason, or at least one/part of it.

When the infected with smith human, sneaks up on neo about to stab him in the "real world" the little geeky guy comes along and prevents him from stabbing neo. Which is cool.

Anyone answer why the Smith infected human cut his hand twice before attempting to stab neo?

I thought maybe he was trying to infect him in the "real world" but I'm not so sure now.

Saruman

A Lot of people have mentioned the part where the Oracles protector says "you can never truly know someone till you fight them. It does not seem stupid to me... remember what you are talking about here!! The Matrix!!!!! Just because someone who looked like Neo (The one) shows up, does not mean its the real Neo.. could be an Agent who looks like Neo... The only way hey could be sure is to fight Neo... Neo obviously able to beat him if he wanted... An Agent obviously is not good enough to beat the protector of the Oracle (she sort of helped create the Matrix after all!!). So once Neo shows he is that good he was happy.. Seems simple to me. And Logical... exactly the way a machine would think.

Spoiler

The Oracles protector plays a part in the next film, i dont know if he is against Neo or with him. If you stayed through 10 mins of credits for the preview you would see what i mean. So if Neo goes against the Oracle, then maybe Neo will have to face him as her protector. And maybe he is better than Neo even!!!

Ivan

I'm not saying it doesnt make sense, I'm just saying they could have worded it better.

It might as well be two card board cut outs of the two characters facing each other with a voice over.

Argh, I just thought it was terrible ok?

vibe666

Whole damn thing is gonna be spoiler full so expect a lot of grey

Zion, in or out?

The Matrix as a whole is more akin to an OS than a program. The Oracle tells neo, that everything from herself, seriph, certain other characters are all programs (the merovegian[sp], the albino twins etc.) effectively NPC's [gamespeak: non player characters] and everything else from the trees to the birds and wind are all programs running within the matrix, including Zion which was created to give those 0.01% of the population that would not accept the program the illusion of choice (i.e. accept the programming of the Matrix, or if you don't like it leave and go to Zion) On the surtface it seems like giving them the freedom to choose, but like the Oracle said, all the choices have already been made, all that's left is to understand those choices. She was talking directly to Neo, but the statement was much more general and can be applied to all sorts of things in everyday life.

and then...

The Architect explained that he needed to create Zion so that he could remove te 0.01% from the main program because to leave the anomoly [the 0.01% who won't accept the programmed reality of the matrix] unchecked would cause a catastrophic failure in the system. the Zionists (for lack of a better term) are akin to a memory leak in a conventional program. a part of the system which if left to do what it wanted (i.e. not what they are meant to do) will eventually grow to such a size that the system as a whole would not function at all. The architect was having trouble getting round this until 'the mother' came up with the solution, which was to give them a choice of whether to accept the 'artificial' reality of the matrix or not, on a subconscious level so that those like the Zionists who's minds would not accept the program could choose 'the blue pill' and free themselves of it (or so they thought). this illusion of choice was enough to keep them in check for long enough to be practical (i.e to get enough power from their people farms) before rebooting the system. Therefore Zion is still part of the matrix because the machines wouldn't remove them from the power pool if they didn't need to because it's not logical, and by their very nature machines are governed by logic. If you just look at the face of it (the script) it doesn't speel it out for you that Zion is part of the matrix, but it becomes clear that this is the case if you read between the lines and think of the problem and the solution used in a purely logical way.

and then there's the sex...

A lot of people (well some) have been complaining about the fact there was a

sex scene in it. Well sorry guys, but the whole point of the movie was that Neo chooses to save Trinity at the risk of killing the entire human race by doing so. Something none of the previous 'Ones' had done. He did this for one reason. Love. He loves Trinity to such an extent that he would risk killing the whole human race to save her (something those who have felt true love would certainly understand). The lovemaking scene during the rave was part of showing their love for each other. two people are never closer, their love never stronger for each other than when they are making love, and to fully understand the extent of that love, its a part of the storyline that you should see them together. Personally I thought it was very well done. They were in a very intimate embrace, but you didn't see anything you wouldn't see in a deodorant advert (aside from a lot of sweat;)). You barely see the crack of his arse, and a few see through tops at the rave, but c'mon people it's hardly a big deal is it? nobody ever been on a holiday to spain? You see bare nipples in the paper, and there's a TV advert for bog roll with a bare arse on it. What's the big deal? Neo's love for Trinity is a big part of the reasons for what he does, therefore a part of the story. therefore it should be part of the movie IMHO.

oh, and another thing...

The Smiths

(ex)Agent Smith copying himself etc. Smith was altered by Neo when Neo thought he destroyed him, although he did survive, but as he is 'damaged goods' he was supposed to be deleted as he wasn't doing what he was supposed to do in the way that the machines would have him do it. During the process where Neo went into him, something of Neo was left in Smith, which was (possibly) what allowed him to copy himself into other programs (characters, both agents and other people) within the Matrix. Because of this contamination his sole purpose now is to destroy Neo by any means necessary, no matter what. Back to the story: He was chasing down Bane and his friend, and before Bane could get out of the Matrix Smith cloned himself into Bane. Since he was still in some part Bane's consciousness within the Matrix he was able to upload himself into Bane's body in the way that other Zionists upload their minds back into their bodies. Smiths consciousness was then inside Bane's body in the 'real' world. i.e. outside of the main matrix. As he is now (bear in mind he believes he is in the 'real' world and like the people within the matrix who don't know its fake he believes he is bound by those rules) inside a human body. Siince he's in a human body he can now feel pain through that body, unlike the other agents within the matrix. because of this new sensation and his character he is cutting himself, increasing the intensity of the feelings he is having, making it feel more 'real' for him. It's Smith who sets off the EMP early on the ship Bane was on, downing his and 2 other ships. this had the effect of breaking the line of defense against the machines, the idea of which being that enough correctly positioned ships setting of their EMP [Electro Magnetic Pulse] defense at just the right time would be enough to destroy most/all of the squiddies that are about to attack them. Smiths plan being that if Zion is destroyed so is Neo, or visa versa. Basically he wants them all dead, and however he can do that he will have a damn good go.

This is gonna continue in my next post. Sorry for the length, but after seeing it there's a lot that people seem to have mis-interpreted about the movie.

vibe666

Zion/Matrix, Matrix/Zion? What's where? what's what?

The reasons for this are that the whole series of events up until that point were part of the way the achitect designed the program in the first place. Everyone serves their purpose from Neo, to agents to the Oracle, to Morpheus etc. Everyone is doing more or less what the achitect wants them to do, or as near as what he wants them to do as he can manage. Think of the whole Matrix/Zion 'thing' as a play, with the architect as the director. he has the characters play out their parts over and over, perfecting the process little by little with each 're-run' of the complete process. The Architect is not in the least bit bothered about anything that happens in the matrix, as long as it runs its course. He couldn't ve a toss who lives or dies as long as they are all kept busy overall, to keep the anomoly under control for as long as he can before the reboot, hoping that eventually he will be able to get it to a point where the gaps between the reboot process can be lengthened to save extra work with the constant resetting of the system. He originally wanted to have a paradise to keep the human minds busy so that they would live out their lives in the little cocoon things as human batteries without causing any problems at all, but the 0.01% of people who's minds wouldn't accept it had to be taken care of, so the whole 'The One' versus the agents scenario had to be created to give them something to fight against, and Zion had to be created so they had something to fight for. Zion is and always has been just an overspill to contain the Zionists without killing them off, since killing them is like throwing out perfectly good batteries, which isn't logical if you can contain them. NOBODY HAS EVER LEFT THE MATRIX, NOT NEO, NOT ANYONE. EVER (AS FAR AS WE KNOW AT THIS POINT IN THE MOVIES).

Timespan in The Matrix/Zion. [possible spoiler, even for people who've seen both movies:)]

Everyone is ignoring the obvious (maybe not that obvious) thing about the way time works in the matrix/zion. If you've played the game or read my other post about the old guy saying that zion only lasted 72 hours 'the last time' you may want to know how this is possible. Since seeing the film, I firmly believe he is talking about from start to finish, not how long they held off the machines, because Morpheus says that the machines has sent one squiddy for every man, woman and child in Zion. I don't think it would take that many squiddies 72 hours to kill everyone in Zion, I reckon they could polish them off in about 5 minutes give or take a few stragglers, but they only need to get to the engineering level and shut down everything there to kill the lot of them. The last incarnation of the Zion program lasted 72 hours in total. The councillor hinted at this when he was talking to Neo, when he was talking about not sleeping much. Everyone is going to come back at me with the whole, 'but morpheus said this', and such and such said that, but you're all thinking that everyone is awake, which they are not. When you are dreaming, hours can pass in a dream in only a few minutes of waking time. The human mind thinks at a much greater speed when it doesn't have to interact with the outside world, so what seems like years to them is only hours in the real world. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's only been a year or 2 since humans were beaten and enslaved by the machines, despite everyone thinking it's been a hundread years or more. c'mon guys stop thinking so 2 dimensionally! The other thing of course is the amount of Matrix's [matrii?] there have been. You hear 'six' but he says in it's current state[paraphrasing] there are a lot more than 6 Neo's in the background screens when Neo is talking to the architect. The architect is talking about this particular version of the matrix, not the number in total. so there could have been 10 or even 50 or more versions of the matrix in its varying forms, with the 6th matrix he is talking about being version 10.6 or x.6 (x being however many there have actually been). It's been re-run with it's 6th 'service pack'- i.e. minor upgrades, but not a complete overhaul of the OS.

Agent upgrades:

The agents are better in this because they needed to be at a certain difficulty level for neo to be able to beat them and continue to grow, and now that he has the architect has introduced better versions so he is still challenged and has room to grow. not too hard, not to easy, so it's a challenge for him, as this keeps the minds fresh.

Did I miss anything?

Let me know if I did and I'll be happy to clear anything up for anyone, but I think this post is more than long enough!

BLITZ_Molloy

Excellent stuff there vibe. I hadn't got the 2nd half of The Agent Smith spoiler. The Timespan one is a pretty cool idea as well.

Zombrex

u can read the Architect Transcript here

(I wouldn't if you havn't seen the movie yet)

My take on the whole thing is ...

I don't think Zion is another Matrix simulation. If it was, then the people in the Zion Matrix would have just as much a hard time accepting it as in the normal Matrix. Where are the 0.1% of the people who can't accept the Zion simulation.

The architect said that the Oracle discovered the only way to make the people in the Matrix accept the world around then was to give the a sub-conscience choice to accept it or refuse it. He said that, even given the chance to leave, 99.9% of the people did accept it and stay. But that 0.1% didn't. This goes back to what Morpheus said to Neo in the original Martix, about him feeling that the world was not quite right, but Neo didn't know what or why. Neo and Morpheus and the others in Zion are the ones who couldn't subconsciencely accept the Matrix ("refused the program" as the Architect says). Neo (or the One) is the physical (in the matrix at least) representation of the anomoly and is give the purpose of following the prophesy, which is really just something to keep him busy and a reason to return to the Architect so the process can start again).

These people have to leave the program, leave the Matrix, because they do not accept it. The leave to go to the real world, to Zion. But Zion cannot be left "unchecked" as it would eventually threaten the machines. When there numbers grow (especially when the One is found - Morpheus talks about how Neo has freed more minds in the last 6 months than in the last 6 years before) the population of Zion becomes troublesome for the machines and they destroy it (when the population reaches 250,000 the same number of Sentinals needed to destroy Zion). The One then takes 23 people "from the Matrix" into the real world to rebuild Zion. This would link back to what Morpheus said about the man who freed the "first of us," in the original movie.

The only way the matrix can work is if some people are allowed escape into the real world. The machines exterminate them when there numbers become to great, and release the next bunch.

Now I could be wrong (first time for everything) ... I don't know what Neo was doing when he said he could feel the sentinals, or could stop them ... or how Agent Smith was able to transfer himself into the real world (if it is the real world) ... anyways guess we will just have to wait till november

daveJAM

Ok, I think at the moment I'm going with the theory that

zion isn't real.

But here's a few what ifs.

Not everyone in Zion was freed from "The Matrix" e.g. Tank, Doozer, if Zion isn't real then are these people programs?

Neo didn't take the door the Architect wanted him to take so Neo still hasn't fulfilled his purpose and the Architect still needs him. What if the sentinels, recognising Neo, were shut down by the Architect so that they wouldn't kill him.

Also I'm not sure about what Neo left "in" Smith is what allowed himself to be copied but I think what he left in him was free will and thats why Smith says he knew what he was supposed to do but he still felt compelled to stay.

weemcd

neo should be able to clone himself too then?? i think noe's mind will be kept alive inside the "matrix" that everyone in zion included knows about. then trinity may have to sacrafice her life or something like that because of the architect wanting to reboot- ive stopped using spoiler tags now cos if u havnt seen the movie (where have you been) then dont be on this thread. anyway this thread is 99% spoilers so thers no use not reading them. thers a guy on the ship that rescues the neba-whatever crew that is very sinister looking not the guy onconcious- who is he? he is sitting across the table from morpheus i think- morpheus asks what happened or some thing like that then quickly the guy says no one knew, like hes hiding something- then the ships captain says someone knew- cut to unconcious gey end film. something very suspicious there neo has two enemies on the ship and hes onconcious with lodsa sentinels outside. tell me what u think i have just wrote

Tusky

omg this just accured to me...it may be a stooopid question but ill give it a go...

in the matrix when ppl "hump" and have a baby....see what i mean ? is the baby just in thier heads ? a computer program ? if thats the case how does population grow and fall....the bodies of ppl surely cant be used as batteries forever and if nobody is REALLy humping then... ?!?

fisty

good question!

I think I figured out the end of revolutions.

Neo is a computer Program or a Virus of some kind

Zombrex

another question ....

was the old guy in Zion who is on the councel, the One before Neo ... he makes damn sure that Morpheus and Neo get all the help they can to get Neo to the machine's main-frame ... and that big talk he has with Neo about everything having a purpose and machines need us and we need machines ...

... just a thought

still not buying the whole "zion isn't real" ... too much like a Star Trek stuck-in-the-holodeck episode for me ..

PyjamaMan

i think persephone is the motehr of the matrix, why else did the merovingian decide to let her go after giving neo the keymaker.

me thinks she has a massive part to play in the next

i also think that neo is a program and he will have to sacrifice himself to destroy the matrix in the nexzt film

Zombrex

surround comments about plot with the tags spoiler and /spoiler (in brackets of course [])

Yeah I thought that about P as well ... she had way too short a part, I would say she has something to do with the next part ...

.. also when Neo says to the Architect "you mean the Oralce" the Architect laughts and says "Please!" .. like Neo is being niave or stupid

Shinji

Just watched it a second time, and something struck me. It deflates the balloon a few of you guys are blowing up here, I'm afraid.

Neo doesn't stop the squiddies at the end. He says something is different, claims that he can feel them (interesting in itself) and then holds out his hand.... But I don't think it's him that stops them, it's an EMP from the ship that came in to rescue them. Listen closely - you can hear that ships engines JUST before the squiddies keel over. Fantastic piece of misdirection to keep us all guessing for Revolutions?

And some thoughts....

I'm still not sure whether Zion is the real world or not; I suspect that it probably is, simply because it makes no sense to me that minds which reject the Matrix would accept Zion so completely if it were an artificial reality. If I was the Wachowski's, my twist in the tail would be simple - machines didn't build the Matrix, we did, because we did indeed "scorch the sky" - not as part of a war with machines, but as part of a war among ourselves, and then had to retreat into a virtuality to escape that.

Want to read the book closest to the ideal plot of the Matrix? Arthur C Clark's "The City And The Stars" - Disapar is The Matrix, a city built to carry its people through a dying world, and regulated down to the level of the individual personalities in that city; Alvin is Neo, The One who is an anomaly thrown up periodically by the city as a means of control; and Lys is Zion, the fragment of the Real World to which The One can travel, acting as a link that eventually unites the two.

madmoe

Just went to see it today, loved it to bits. To be honest major confusion plot wise and tons of questions, and I did pay attention! Had to go online straight away and get some answers thankfully I found a lot of them here!!

I thought

Persephone was cool, especially the conversation with her hubby (lipstick etc.) lol Thought it was a bit weird though the way he just let her go and why was she so eager to help them? Anyone any ideas?

What's the story with cutting hand twice and shaking Neo's hand?

Saruman

Originally posted by Shinji
Just watched it a second time, and something struck me. It deflates the balloon a few of you guys are blowing up here, I'm afraid.

Neo doesn't stop the squiddies at the end. He says something is different, claims that he can feel them (interesting in itself) and then holds out his hand.... But I don't think it's him that stops them, it's an EMP from the ship that came in to rescue them. Listen closely - you can hear that ships engines JUST before the squiddies keel over. Fantastic piece of misdirection to keep us all guessing for Revolutions?

Took off the spoiler tags as its not needed.. no one is going through 6 + pages of spoilers and not expect another one..

Sorry sinj but i have to burst your bubble.. your forgetting the fact the ship rescued them!! In other words they could not have used EMP or they would have been dissabled themselves. I suppose it is possible they had time to power everything off before they did that but i dont think there was enough time...

vibe666

Zion/Matrix:

people keeps saying that Zion isn't part of the Matrix because anyone who wouldn't accept the Matrix wouldn't accept a virtual Zion, but the answer is given by the Oracle (I think) when she says that people need a choice even if it only an illusion of choice. The only thing that's getting me now, is what the architect says about Neo taking the wrong door, that 'Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.' This tends to indicate that they are 2 seperate things altogether, which goes against all the other hints left in the movie, so either the brothers missed this or the other stuff is meant to throw us off the scent.

Neo & the Squiddies:

If Zion is part of the Matrix then Neo stopping them was just part of him realising the fact that he was still inside the Matrix and as 'The One' he could bend the rules just the same as before, but with the squiddies being so big and powerful (much more so than an agent) stopping the 3 (or possibly more) that were on their tail was a big drain for even him. If he is outside the Matrix then a plausible explanation is that in discovering that he had the power to save Trinity the way he did (the speed, and power to start her heart) he realises that as 'The One' he has a permanent connection to the Matrix on a subconscious level and as the machines are all connected (think Borg Hive Minds/DC) he indirectly has a connection to them and can control them to a certain extent. EMP saved them? Nope,don't think so. An EMP can only be fired when a ship is in close range with all it's other systems off or it will destroy the ship too, see what happened when one was fired prematurely earlier in the movie? the ship it was on and 2 ships nearby were downed. The rescue ship would have had to have got in close, landed and shut everything down before activating the EMP, and then started up againb and come to get them, but the whole process between Neo stoppping them and the ship coming as only about a minute, so they wouldn't have had time to do that.

Bane/Smith/Neo:

The whole thing about The guy coming for Neo with a knife is that this is the guy with Smith inside him. He is the same guy that survived the EMP discharge that downed the 3 ships, and probably not coincidentally the only one that survived that 'accident' and ended up on a table opposite the comatose Neo at the end [cliffhanger style]. When he cut himself he wasn't trying to infect Neo with anything (they've already shared plenty remember:)) he was getting tactile feedback, because it's not something he has felt before, and as a generally nasty person the most acute sensation he can feel is pain. He is cutting himself so he can feel the pain. Nutcases have been known to do this quite a lot you know:).

Saruman

Nice one Vibe!! I explained to a friend about the cutting himself part.. feeling pain etc... Never thought to post it as i thought it was obvious considering everything else being discussed!

As for your thought of Neo maybe being real and Zion being real too but that Neo can now interact with the machines as he is part machine himself.. borg collective type stuff... yeah i mentioned that earlier on in the thread in one my my possible theories... seems plausible to me. Though my fave is that the real world is a paradise and nay damage done to it in the war (if there was one) is long since over.


Oh i read the transcript posted of the creator and neo's conversation.. Anyone else think he was not talking about 72 hours... but more like 72 the one's? By the way where did the notion of 72 hours come from? The Architect did not mention it himself...

Anyone else notice that NEO is a nice wordplay the ONE? Just something stupid to point out... Maybe Morpheus is not what he seems.. if you go by greek mythology that is.

vibe666

OK enough with the spoilers, if you've got this far you want to know what's going on!

the 72 hours thing came from the game. An old guy that appears briefly in thye trailer for Revolutions is in a clip near the end of the game. He says to Niobe '72 hours', and when she asks what he's talking about, he says 'that's how long Zion lasted the last time'. I think he's another renegade program like the Merovegian etc. but he describes himself as 'a casual observer'.

I'm not sure though if he's talking about the time the Zion Program started running or how long it lasted once the machines got there.

If my 'dreamtime' theory is correct then its total time, but if not then its the time the final battle lasts. I have to say though, if it's the latter, it's gonna be one hell of a ride, after seeing the Aliens style battle robots at the entrance when the Neb landed.

Not seeing them kick ass would be a waste of a great looking fighting machine. I always thought the whole 'mech' thing was vastly underexploited in movies, except those couple of straight to video movies that were around a few years back. Wasn't Eric Roberts in one of those flicks?

Gaz

Question for you vibe , seeing as you have put so much effort into your explanations

In matrix 1 Tank said himself and his brother dosser where natrual born children of Zion ? How is this possible , if their parents are still connected to the "larger" matrix if you will , Only thing i can think off is the machine created these children in test tubes and connected them to the matrix at the same time as their mother gave birth , but that is leaving a hel of a lot for the viewing public to come up with by themselves,

Any thoughts ?

hussey

n matrix 1 Tank said himself and his brother dosser where natrual born children of Zion ? How is this possible , if their parents are still connected to the "larger" matrix if you will , Only thing i can think off is the machine created these children in test tubes and connected them to the matrix at the same time as their mother gave birth , but that is leaving a hel of a lot for the viewing public to come up with by themselves,

they believed they were natural born .. i.e. they believed they were not 'unplugged'.

Chopper

Smith/Neo in Zion

I understand that the Matrix does have some control in Zion, as per the when the agents trace the call from Zion they can deploy the scentinals.
Maybe Neo stopped the scentinals, maybe someone from the Matrix stopped them ....
but then how was it that Agent Smith didn't get killed by the scentinals since he is in someone else's body and also thinks he's in the real world.?