MAJOR SPOILERS: Matrix reloaded - confusing ?

vibe666

if Zion is part of the Matrix, then Tank & 'Doser' (Dosser is somene like me who doesn't do much:D) believe they are in the real world when in fact they never have been at all, so much the same as people inside the Matrix don't have the ports, neither do Tank and Doser.

If however Zion is in the real world, then their parents would have been freed and then bumped uglies on the outside and ended up with T&D (and link's missus too) the way nature intended.

Tusky mentioned the whole people doing it (having sex) in the Matrix and what happened with the kids etc.

I'm guessing the logical way for the machines to manage that would be to just give the woman a virtual pregnancy within the matrix and when she's due to give her one of the newly hatched kids from the 'vats' that you see in the first movie. as that childs consciousness matures they grow up inside the matrix with their adopted parents never knowing the difference, as for them it is all real.

Doesn't it make you wonder how I get to sleep at night thinking about all this stuff?

[Edit]
previous post: smith doesn't get destroyed by the sentinels because they weren't attacked by them. the 3 ships were downed by the EMP Smith set off on one of them, not by squiddies as they were within the line of defense at the time and there were no squiddies around. You'd have to assume that Smith would know that setting off the EMP on it's own wouldn't be a guaranteed FUBAR to the defense plans, so he would want to survive the crash to make sure, and who's to say they didn't all or at least some survive the crash, but were all bumped off by Smith before help arrived. Smith then pretends to be knocked out when the ship comes so he gets rescued to give him more of a chance to get to Neo again.

Chopper

right folks.... I saw it again lastnight and I have a question for whoever has played the computer game....

When Neo/Morpheous/Trinity are walking towards the Merovegian at the dining table someone is being lead away.

He is kinda scruffy looking with a beard and a dodgy tank top.

He makes eye contact with Neo briefly.....

Who is he ? Where does he fit in ?

vibe666

I think that's the guy who mentioned the 72 hours thing to Niobe in the game, but I can't remember 100% if thats the case. Think so though.

Hyzepher

OK I have seen the movie a couple of times now andhave come away with different ideas each time. I think part of Reloaded's remit was to ask more questions than it answered thus giving the next movie immediate hype.

On watching the movie I have a few questions that I would like answered and I think would go a long way to finding the real plot behind the movie.

1. If the prophecy and Neo are but a pathway created by the Architect to simply reboot the system then why give him a choice at the end?

2. If Neo really had a choice at the end and the Architect wanted him to return to the 'source' (right hand door) then why tell Neo that Trinity had entered the Matrix, in fact why have a character called trinity at all. In movie 1 the Oracle said that she would fall in love with the One - the falling in love part seems to dictate that Neo would always 'choose' the left door and try and save Trinity - after all Neo never chooses, he only has to find out why he made the choices.

3. Zion - There is no dislogue in the movie that states that Zion is but a matrix outside the initial matrix - the episode with Neo and the Sentinels seems to imply that it is a matrix as well. However, there are a few incidents in the movie that also imply that Zion is artificial - Smith's ability to transend from Matrix to Zion, the existence of the Spoon which also transended from the Matrix to Zion, and the chip from the Oracle that Bane and the other guy (the guy who got out before Bane got replicated by Smith) delivered to Neo.

However, if it is possible to transend from the Matrix into the 'real world' then it might explain why Neo is able to effect the sentenels - this would also lead to a situation where Zion is indeed the real world.

4. Merovingian and Persephone seem to be previous versions of Neo and Trinity. Persephone's insistance to kissing Neo looks like a link back to when she and Merovingian also shared such a love - but now have lost. Persephone also seems to have some control over Merovingian as he seems relunctant to punish her for the betrayal. Me thinks that she has a lot to do with the plot in the next movie. If the Merovingian was a previous Neo then his hatred of the Oracle might have something to do with him choosing the right hand door (save humanity - wipe out Zion). He may feel cheated once realising that his life as the One was a fake.

5. I also noticed the guy being led away from the Merovingian before Neo, Trinity and Morpheous arrive - leads me to believe that their is a sub plot there waiting to happen.

6. The keymaker is a pivotal character for me. He is essential if Neo is to fulfil the prophecy and yet the Merovingian has taken the time to kidnap him and hold him for 'a long time'. It seems that some programs in the Matrix do not want Neo to reach the end of his journey - Why?

7. I dont think the 'Enter The Matrix' game gives reference to Zion being only 72 hours old. I think it is a reference to the length of time Zion has before it will fall once the Sentenels start drilling.

8. There was also a reference by the captain of the Hammer in which he mentioned that after the Sentenels had wiped out the population they started drilling again - why?

9. Agent Smith, for me, controls a large part of the plot. In the first movie he talks to Morpheous about how he hates the Matrix and wants to find the keycodes for the Zion mainframe so he can leave. This implies that there is somewhere to go. In reloaded Neo destroyed him but he felt complelled to stay - without purpose. He is now looking for purpose but also looking to exit to matrix - hense his visit to Zion. At the start of the movie he also tals to one of his clones and states that everything is happening again the same way - but not exactly the same, and smiles. This implies that he is aware of the prophecy and how it leadds Neo to the Architect. From this we ca assume that the other agents should know this - then why do they try and kill them all the time. It also implies that Agent Smith is now effecting the predermined prophecy differently than before. It should also be noted that he also doesn't want the keymaker, Neo etc to reach the source - why? It cant be fear of being rebooted as the Merovingian has survived many reboots.

10. The senate - cant put my finger on it but if Zion is another matrix then these guys are in on it.

11. The oracle and the bodyguard - the jury is out on this one. She could be wishing to unite the machines and humans or she could be just another program to ensure Neo finds the Architect.

There are many more but my brian is over - loaded.

Hyzepher

vibe666

Originally posted by Hyzepher
10. The senate - cant put my finger on it but if Zion is another matrix then these guys are in on it.

have to agree with that one. The old council member keeps going on about getting old and not asking questions or thinking about things too much, just accepting things the way they are, and Neo says, is that why there are no young people on the council and he laughs.

I think they know whats going on, but they've (like most old people) decided theres no point in doing anything about it, and just put up with things the way they are.

Ivan

Originally posted by Chopper
Smith/Neo in Zion

I understand that the Matrix does have some control in Zion, as per the when the agents trace the call from Zion they can deploy the scentinals.
Maybe Neo stopped the scentinals, maybe someone from the Matrix stopped them ....
but then how was it that Agent Smith didn't get killed by the scentinals since he is in someone else's body and also thinks he's in the real world.?

How do you know that agent smith thinks he's in the real world (assuming that he isnt?)

I assumed that after the fight with the 3 upgraded agents at the start of the movie, when the two smiths come on screen for the first time, Smith A says to Smith B, its "happening exactly the same"

Or at least something very similar.

Maybe he's seen this all before, knows exactly whats going on but is looking at things from a different perspective. I mean its clear Smith wants to kill Neo, so why wait? Why not walk straight into the meeting and start kicking ass?

Because he's allowing things to play out to a point, would be my opinion.

millo

OK, well im new here, but im gonna post my views since these films are definetly worth the time and effort.

Im not sure why you guys think Zion is another aprt of the Matrix, perhaps you can point some things I missed in either film that point to that. I rather think it is the last human city.

Now to the crucial point.... Neo meets the Architect(remember he is just a representation of something outside the matrix, not human!).... he is given a choice, go the same way as the other 'Ones' and keep the cycle of the matrix going or save trinity and risk all. The architect tells him that although the other 'ones' had an attachment to humanity they did not feel it in such a personal way as Neo did (Love - Trinity). The Architect says that it defies logic etc... and Neo leaves, saves Trinity. Here is the interesting point, we are given no indication that Neo realises that Zion is still in The Matrix, and yet he manages to save Trinity after death even though he was told by Morpheus in the first one that the body cannot survive without the mind (so she would have died in Zion too). And then in reality he manages to stop the Sentinels and says something is different he 'feels them'...... What if Neo is realising not only is he the one in the Matrix but that he is the one in reality, he has a bond with the computers (whatever they are), he can control the matrix and can control things in reality. The Oracle said that she sees men and machines living together in some way, what if Neo is that way, and that he is going to control the matrix and defeat the machines and slowly get eevrybody out of the matrix..... The Architect may not even realise the extent of his power since all the others chose the other door and none have decided to stay and fight.

could be totally wrong... just a thought!

vibe666

a couple of people have mentioned the 2 Smiths at the beginning after Neo fights the 3 agent 'upgrades', but it didn't look like 2 SMiths to me at all. The other agent looked more like one of the ones that was fighting Neo, although in the park with multi-smiths the agent said 'the anomoly' before being converted into a Smith, so I don't know now.

Oh, the confusion!

vibe666

the references to Zion being artifical like the matrix, or even a seperate part of it are very subtle, and most of the time you only really find out by reading between the lines.

jonno

Well I finally got through those seven pages:)

Anyway I've only seen the film once and my first thoughts after it were the same as Vibe's.

But when you get more time to mull over it you start taking more parameters into the evaluating function and it starts to conflict with your original variables and then you get a very jumbled up and confusing error message when you try to run your evaluating function again.

So as it stands I'm very confused and I guess the final answer will come in November. I still think Zion is part of The Matrix. There is a sh1tload of subtext to lead you to this conclusion. But then again there is coflicting issues to deal with.

So I'm off to try and fix my evaluating code and I'll get back to ye:)

weemcd

the machines must be drilling rite to the core so humans wont live at all they just want to make earth unlivable- if earth is so **** why dont humans go to another planet they have the technology. dead babies are liquafied to sustain live ones inside the pods in the frst film- the 72hours has to be hours spent defending, how could that city be running like that after 72 hours? Did it show any pregnant women on zion? Neo cant die hes the one, the whole matrix would die before him the oracle and architect and key maker are the only people higher than neo and they might not be as important. I dont think neo is part machine- he just has dominion over the matrix.

IT NEEDS TO BE CLEARED UP IS SMITH ACROSS FROM NEO UNCONCIOUS OR IS SMITH CONCIOUS AND TALKIN TO MORPHEUS AT THE TABLE. iF HE IS THE GUY SITTING ACROSS FROM MORPHEUS THEN WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL ABOUT THE GUY ACROSS FROM NEO? THIS NEEDS TO BE SORTED OUT VE HEARD DIFFRENT ACCOUNTS FROM EVRYONE

smiles

Originally posted by PyjamaMan
i think persephone is the motehr of the matrix, why else did the merovingian decide to let her go after giving neo the keymaker.

me thinks she has a massive part to play in the next

i also think that neo is a program and he will have to sacrifice himself to destroy the matrix in the nexzt film

Thats exactly what I thought when I heard about "the mother".

<< Fio >>

PyjamaMan

another thing i read (cant remember if it has been posted already and i coudlnt be bothered re-reading the whole 7 pages of text but here goes)

in the revolutions trailer, we see a scene of neo fighting smith. now straight after that we see morpheus, he says "he fights for us?" this to me suggests that they know that neo is part program/ machine or somethign along that line.

but then i get to the article i read, the matrix film is based on Gnostic Christianity and buddhist beliefs. If this holds true then Neo has been sent into the matrix by a person more powerful than the architech a sorta boss, if this is correct then we shoudl see this boss in the third one, and he will look remarkably like neo.
Now if if its based on those beliefs it also mean that the adversary of the saviour will join forces to destroy there hate i.e. neo and smith will join together to destroy the matrix, smith is already in the process of doign that with teh smith virus, that would therefore be the reason why in the revolutions trailer we see morpheus say.. "he fights for us?"

man i love this ****, so many different possibilities i havent stopped thinking about it constant, heres me trying to revise for me A levels and all i can think about is a bloody film =D

PyjamaMan

ah and any of u know were i could download reloaded, prefarebly not kazaa or something of the sort?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

PyjamaMan

ta dave

[CALIBUR]

his in kid's story

Captain Trips

Seen it once, planning again ASAP. Great posts so far BTB. Here is some thoughts on what's been said:

1. The Matrix being only 72 hours old: the Architect says that the matrix has been around a lot longer than Neo thinks, doesn't he? Neo was told and we all presume that humans have been enslaved since early 21st century and that's it's around the year 2200. "We don't actually know". This implies that it's not just the 6th incarnation of the Matrix and they last 3 days each. He said that the Mother thought of the possible likely solution - and that this is the sixth time they have tried that solution.

2. Neo: The agents at the start know what the typical outcome is now - it's happening exactly the same. He's nothing new!

3. Smith: is indeed the anomaly as is said. This is a different purpose for Smith who should be now gone. Neo is going just as planned but Smith isn't. Perhaps Smith is a virus but that's very obvious.
- ""Never send a human to do a machine's job." - from the first movie. Is the theory that after 5 attempts with a "machine" The One they are now trying a human - and this is why love became the difference.

4. Zion: could be part of the Matrix; I don't know but the scene when the camera pans down and it basically looks like the giant battery like from the 1st movie with all the pods is either a hint that it's part of the Matrix or that it's just typical Wachoski brothers trying to draw an ironic comparison between the real world and what the humans are trying to escape and how futile the reality of fighting the "enlavement" really is.
- Zion could be part of the Matrix
- could be the real world
- or Zion could be the "Paradise Matrix" that was originally built


5. Morpheus: very very important character that I feel is purposely disregarded from Reloaded. Neo is The One, for sure. Heck he can even change the Matrix's programming and so save Trinity (nothing to do with real world - just "changing the matrix as he sees fit".
- but in the first movie the Oracle says that "Without him [Morpheus] we are lost". In the Reloaded, for all the hubub with Neo making the choice, etc., saving Trinity, the machines advancing on Zion, Morpheus takes a back seat. He is unimportant in all of the this supposedly important stuff, but yet without him all is lost?
- The oracle didn't come right out and say Neo was the one - but that ""Being the One is just like being in love, you don't have to have anyone tell you that you are in love, you just know it, balls to bones.".
- here's a thing I thought of after the first movie - what if Morpheus is the real The One, but doesn't know it.
- the Zion mainframe codes: either it's Smith trying to get the codes that Morpheus doesn't know he has (which is why all is lost without him) or it's the obvious one that's it's the location/access to the Zion city.

Is the Zion mainframe or indeed Zion itself (remember the big battery like camera pan) the "kernel" of the Matrix? Does it need some special extra electricity generated by "free" humans to power it and thus power the 20th century matrix.

The Merovingian: keeping up with the historical/biblical themes. http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/merovingian-twyman.htm
- described in history as "Sons of Gods" or "Watchers". I am not sure if either he's a) an old version of Neo (obvious again), b) a relic from the very early days of the Matrix - the paradise or c) something else. He wasn't surprised at Neo stopping the bullets "know a few tricks" or something.

The significance of destroying the Nebuchadnezzar: then "something's changed". Nebuchadnezzar's life traced the path of awareness and awakening, and change. Is it Neo's or some other character's?

Caesar_Bojangle

I went to see it with a few friends, one being a girl. I looked at her as the credits rolled up and said "that was was quite good, wasnt it?" the response i got was " i just realised Neo is a anagram for One" (as in The One). She spent 2 1/2 hours thinking about that. So i neglected to ask her whether she comprehended anything whatsoever of the story for fear of her taking it as an insult to her intelligence.

Tbh i wasnt expecting there to be a thought provoking last half hour or so, which i thought to be quite cool. Roll on revolutions.

Captain Trips

Originally posted by Caesar_Bojangle


Tbh i wasnt expecting there to be a thought provoking last half hour or so, which i thought to be quite cool. Roll on revolutions.

Yes while the first half was a bit ponderous it was really just filler to build up the link together the next hour and then next 2.5 hours of the real finale. The last hour was awesome and really I couldn't wait another 4 years! Although it's getting a slating, they have put a massive amount of actual thought into the whole Matrix concept.

Bacchus

I went to see the matrix for the second time last night with a friend - B3K.
Afterwards we came up with our own theory as to what's going on.
So far (from what I'm reading on the boards) the most likely solution to the conundrum is that Zion is part of the Matrix, but there are still two things that dont fit with that.
1) The Architect differentiates between the destruction of the Matrix and the destruction of Zion
2) Why give Neo the choice of two doors - can't they just make him comply with the 'reboot'.
Also it's the most obvious probablity - The Wachowski Bro's wouldn't make it that easy.

What B3K and I came up with is this:
First we realised that this movie is all about the illusion of choice and control - it's found everywhere thoughout the movie.
What if Neo was given the illusion of choice when choosing which door to go through. The Architect didn't seem that pissed when Neo went in the Trinity door. I reckon that Neo still has something left to do before the machines can reboot the system.
But, theres more - When Neo leaves this room, he does not enter the matrix, but enters a VR (a mini-Matrix) in which the machines can manipulate him into unknownly doing what is needed for them to reboot the system - this also explains why he has his powers in the 'real world'.
Meanwhile, the real Zion is under attack by the machines.

This is the way it has been done for the 5 previous incarnations except this time something is different:
Smith could be what's different - he wasn't meant to happen. Also he wants to destroy Neo so there will be no Matrix. Smith could be the key to breaking the cycle.
Also there's that French dude. Not sure what the story is with him, but one idea we had was that he was a 'One' before. Persophone was his Trinity. He could also be what is different. When he was givent the choice of the two doors, he choose the reboot one i.e. the one not to save Persophone - this is why she hates him. Because he choose this other door, he probably struck a deal with the machines to help reboot the Matrix and get reinserted - just like Cyper was doing in the first movie. He also realised the importance of the keymaker and so trapped him - a man with power only wants more power. There are numerus quotes from Persophone to support this possiblity - she constantly compares him with Neo. Also (although trivial) in the first movie Neo's room was 101, in this movie the floor that French Dude lives on is 101. Also pointed out by B3K was that 101 is 5 in binary - the 5th incaration. Yeah that's stretching it a bit.
So what is your take on this idea?

vibe666

there seems to be quite a lot of revulsion towards any movie that can't be pigeonholed at the moment.

It's an action movie with deep philosophical content and critics don't seem to like the idea of watching action AND having to think about it at the same time.

[edit]
Bacchus, liked the ideas.

Couple of things to mull over though. Seen this Merovengian being the 'old' The One and Persephone being his Trinity thing doing the rounds and I'm not too sure about that.


For one, they have both admitted they are programs, not people, and Neo is a person ('still human' - the architect) but maybe that is also a reference to the fact that some of the previous ones, had forgone their physical bodies in favour of a completely digital existence (in a lawnmower man stylee) in which case this would support the Merovengian being a previous 'One'.

I'd be inclined to think though that if this were the case, that he would have been an artifical 'one' in the times before the 6 matrix's we know of currently. My guess being that sometime in the evolution of the matrix program the architect decided to make 'the one' from a human rather than a program.

Mr E

I know I said in the "Matrix - Good or Bad?" thread that I wouldn't go and see it again.

However on reading this thread over the last few days, I think I *do* need to see it again.

WB are going to make ALOT of money from people going to see it multiple times.

- Dave.

vibe666

kerrr-ching!

good marketing ploy if nothing else.

cynical? who? me?

Bacchus

I didn't realsie that the French dude and Persephone were programs. It's still possible that the Architect used to artificial The One's before - but not really likely - and that now he's trying using a human 'one'.
I still like the idea that Neo is now in a mini-Matrix (and Zion is in the Real World) and is been manipulated into doing the machines biding without him even knowing.

mooman_00

Originally posted by millo
Here is the interesting point, we are given no indication that Neo realises that Zion is still in The Matrix, and yet he manages to save Trinity after death even though he was told by Morpheus in the first one that the body cannot survive without the mind (so she would have died in Zion too

This is my thinkin:
the reason neo didn't die in the end of the first one is because he took morpheus's advise to "free your mind". Being the one he could distinguish between dieing in reality and dieing in the matrix, allowing him to get back up. I think the same applies for saving trinity, how i dunno, but he saved trinity by removing the bullet and shocking her heart allowing her mind to believe it had been saved.........then she wakes up.......

mooman_00

Originally posted by Hyzepher

3. Zion - There is no dislogue in the movie that states that Zion is but a matrix outside the initial matrix - the episode with Neo and the Sentinels seems to imply that it is a matrix as well. However, there are a few incidents in the movie that also imply that Zion is artificial - Smith's ability to transend from Matrix to Zion, the existence of the Spoon which also transended from the Matrix to Zion, and the chip from the Oracle that Bane and the other guy (the guy who got out before Bane got replicated by Smith) delivered to Neo.

smith took over your mans mind during the unplugging........although i believe that zion too is 'fake', i think its possible for smith to control your mans body outside the matrix without zion having to be another matrix. Normally the agents either take over people who are still part of the matrix, or they destroy those that plug in from zion, whose to say that if they didn't destroy someones matrix identity that they wouldn't become that person in the real world.


the spoon is a dodgy home made diy spoon that looks as if it was made by that budda kid from the first one in zion. The spoon didn't transcend, the kid left the matrix and made the spoon as a present for neo to wish him luck or sth.

The chip wasn't the same chip that bane was given i think it was the matrix code for the chip stored on, i dunno a floppy or zip disk or sth, so it could be given to neo outside the matrix.

then again im usually wrong

davej

Originally posted by Bacchus
But, theres more - When Neo leaves this room, he does not enter the matrix, but enters a VR (a mini-Matrix) in which the machines can manipulate him into unknownly doing what is needed for them to reboot the system - this also explains why he has his powers in the 'real world'.
Meanwhile, the real Zion is under attack by the machines.

I'm not sure i agree with you on this. I don't think the matrix can be reloaded without the conscious act of a human. This is part of what the machines need, something they can't comprehend themselves.one of the big themes of the movie is free will and the ability to choose. "Tricking" him into entering the wrong door won't work.

The oracle said to neo that it's not about choice (this has already been made), it's about understanding that choice. I think perhaps
the architect can't willingly reload the matrix without the help of a human (neo) because, being a machine, it lacks the ability to truly "understand" this path. The architect with all of its perfection and powers of prediction over the minutiae of the matrix doesn't understand this, it can't work outside the parameters of perfection. Neo has begun to realise that they both need each other for survival. Smith is an interesting case though, he seems to have broken free from this inability through his encounter with neo at the end of M1. This makes him neos biggest threat/rival and probably represents an alternative salvation for the machines which doesn't involve humans.

It also appears to me that the films are in a dialogue with each other. Much of the philosophy of the first film has been countered with opposing ideas in the second. Morpheus gave neo the choice of taking the red or blue pill, but now it appears that there never was a choice. There have been literal reversals as well: Smith becomes what he despises, Neo saves trinity at the end, Morpheus is awakened to the truth by Neo.

Matrix 1 = thesis, Matrix 2 = antithesis, Matrix 3 = synthesis, Matrix 4 = post modern sell out ;-)

davej

Fence

Well I knew I was going to have to go see it again, but defo after reading all 8 pages of posts here

I do think that Zion is either within the matrix, or a different matrix longside it. But as some one pointed out here this was never stated in the film.

However the comments that were made about Neo being "still human" do not mean that he is absolutely human, it just means that at the moment he considers himself human, and so is human, still. but if he realises he is a program well then he is no longer human. Course I don't know if I believe that.

There is always the possibilty that there was never a war at all, that the Matrix is some big VR game, that has simply gone on too long. Something like ExistenZ (sp?)

Cya
Fence