MAJOR SPOILERS: Matrix reloaded - confusing ?

banbutcher

I just dont know what to think any more after reading trough all 8 pages!!

/me's mind turns to mush!!

Caesar_Bojangle

There is always the possibilty that there was never a war at all, that the Matrix is some big VR game, that has simply gone on too long. Something like ExistenZ (sp?)

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. But it would be an absolute cop out/dirt ending after all the philosophical elements in the film.

I reckon(okay i dont, it just reminds me of the that specific episode) the wachowskis got the idea from an old Red Dwarf episode were the cast were all hooked up to a vr simulator, think it was the episode with Jake Bullet?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

"better than life"

it's a very addictive game and once people plug in, they forget they are in the game entirely and all their desires are granted.

the only reason it didn't work for the dwarfers is cos rimmer is so ****ed up he wanted himself to suffer and subconsciously sabotaged his own fantasy

p2p

One thought.

If neo had the option of going through the
other door and restarting zion..

The architect said he could say X men and Y women
from the matrix to start zion all over again, why didnt he just pick Trinity as one of those women!

vibe666

because that wouldn't be a solution to the problem. He wants to free everyone but the architect wants him to keep everyone enslaved and use them for power.

I'd say he gives Neo the choice (because lets face it there must be 100's of ways for him to either trick or force Neo to do what he wants) because his main interest apart from using humans for power is to constantly improve the Matrix, by using the people in it to find ways of doing things that will work better/longer so he doesn't have to keep rebooting it.

This is where the whole illusion of choice thing comes into play.

Neo has chosen one way or another, but since he' still part of the matrix the choices don't really matter at all, because either way he will be serving the architects will.

KdjaCL

Seen it other day and thought 1st off good film very confusiing about which plot to believe but only this morning it occured to me that the plot is irrelevant to the desired effect the Directors had.
Imo i think the plot is perfectly filled with "what ifs" and "wtfs" to keep people guessing until they see the 3rd movie.

When i 1st heard that Reloaded would have a massive cliffhanger i didnt think it would work in cinema when i seen it and noone died or you were left wondering if someone was going to die (i assumed that would the cliffhanger).
I only today got the cliffhanger that was mentioned last year sometime, its the movie and its plot.
I think the Directors want people to be unsure ,and have their own ideas of what is exactly happening and threads like this confirm it for me as i have seen quite a few over the last week.
I have yet to meet 2 people with the same idea of what exactly is going on and thats the perfect cliffhanger and although its very different when in context of the movie it seems to fit.

Or maybe im nuts

kdjac

vibe666

don't worry, you probably are nuts, but the boards.ie family tree has lots of nuts hanging from it

Fence

Originally posted by vibe666

I'd say he gives Neo the choice (because lets face it there must be 100's of ways for him to either trick or force Neo to do what he wants)

Yeah he coulda just lied about what door did what.

Cya
Fence

Caesar_Bojangle

I was half expecting neo to fight the architect rather than choose a door

Magic Monkey

Read this thread, watched it a second time last night. The conversation near the end with the Architect explains a lot:

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bull****.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bull****!"*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

This suggests that seeing as the previous incarnations of 'The One' have chose the door to rebuild The Matrix/Zion, that the two are inter-connected. Separate matrices, but still matrices, i.e. not the real-world. This explains why Neo could stop the Sentinels at the end (also, if it was an EMP blast from a ship, it would 'burst' in a wave - What Neo did was more like lightning...)

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

This makes sense. There are x number of people in the Matrix, and y number in Zion. x + y = Entire human race. The Matrix and Zion are seperate matrices. Stands to reason.

Skyclad

Surely the program is in fact "the real world", of which the matrix is but a sub program.

Every Human being is connected to the real world, and in "the real world" most are then connected into the matrix (Like passing a parameter in a method call or something).

When someone becomes unplugged they simply leave the existence that is the matrix and return to the "real world" program.

In this way, the matrix could crash, wiping out everyone connected to it, but there would still be those who had unplugged who were unaffected, and which would have to be dealt with separately. Note they cant reboot the "real world" program, they have to go in and kill everyone instead (like eliminating a memory leak?). If they did they would lose all the information the matrix has collected. These people could even in theory live on past the matrix reboot.

The "one returning to the source" is simply the matrix returning a value to the "real world" program, which creates the matrix again with the new set of values. By returning, he terminates the program himself. If a value isnt returned, an exception will be thrown and the program will crash.

What else...

Neo and smith will team up because they both want the matrix destroyed (obv).

Neo is a program, not human at all. The machines keep saying that the choices are made because they can calculate every next move - they cant ever be impulsive. However Neo, the first "intelligent" program (note the use of the word "sentient" rather then "intelligent" for the machines), at some point will realise he CAN make a choice, that his choices are NOT predetermined. This is the understanding he will come to that will allow him to fulfill the prophesy and destroy the machines control over the humans.

This is the fundamental theme brought to a conclusion - The computers can predetermine everything, the humans can make choices. In the end, a machine will finally be able to make a choice, or in effect, become human.

Dave

Magic Monkey

Originally posted by Skyclad
Neo and smith will team up because they both want the matrix destroyed (obv).

Hmm... in the Revolutions trailer, Neo and Agent Smith are seen fighting (in the rain, and also in a room - Neo jumps up, Smith comes flying in)...

Also, Trinity is fighting someone wearing a black leather gimp-mask? And Link is fighting someone too (most likely Bane, although it's difficlt to see).
The Oracle's protector (Seraph? I've forgotten his name) is seen too, although I don't know who he's fighting alongside...

vasch_ro

I like the idea that Zion is infact another matrix or part or a series of interlinked matrices, however if indeed this is the case
and The One can rewrite the code on the fly as he sees fit, how come he does realise that someone is trying to kill him just as he is leaving Zion,it is established that he can sense things happening in the Matrix with out necessarily seeing them first hand, just wondering it just seems like a flaw in the Zion is a matrix theory

JustHalf

Neo didn't sense that Bain/Smith was about to kill him... the kid he freed shouted "Neo!" after him, and Bain/Smith hid the knife as Neo turned around. The kid was (if I recall correctly) delivering the spoon to Neo.

MAJOR SPOILER: On the topic of the Revolutions trailer:

It looks like Smith has infected everyone in the Matrix. The street is full of Smiths, and Smiths seem to be starring out of every window. This of course would be the ideal way of generating electricity from human bodies... replace their conciousness with an AI's

Some people think that you would need an infinite amount of "Matrices" if Zion was just another Matrix, as those who would not accept the Matrix as reality would not accept Zion as such. However, if one truly believes one has escaped a prison, does one continue to attempt to escape?

Captain Trips

Well it would maybe stand to reason that of all the people, a small amount wouldn't accept the 20th century matrix. They are in Zion, the machines don't mind, the handle it. And of the people in Zion, a proportion equivalent to amount that didn't accept it would not accept Zion. Like 1% of people in Matrix wouldn't accept it. Then 1% of the 1% in Zion would accept Zion.

I think it isn't that big a spoiler that Smith may infect everyone in the Matrix. But would it stand to reason that if consciousness can be digitalised and packaged up to broadcast into the matrix, that the consciousness/mind can be either human or machine. So maybe Smith figured out a way to just do what the Zionites are doing when they package up their minds for broadcast.

Are the sentinels the Agents in the maybe big matrix incorporating Zion?

Dempsey

If its a matrix within a matrix, id be fairly pissed off about it. The thirtheenth floor, existenz, red dwarf and the outer limits and some books (forget the names) have all done similar type twists in their storylines. Fours years and thats the best they could come up with!!

If it is indeed a matrix within a matrix, then the first matrix means nothing as far as "what is the matrix?"

There are too many gaps in the story to make a correct assumption. Any theory I came up with could be flawed and so could everyone elses. I hope they have all the answers in the third one.

Its like a two part film on TV3 or something.

vibe666

seems to me it's all about ascention.

The wachowski's are big into the whole philosophical thing, so it stands to reason that they would base all this on deep philosophical questions, and therefore the deepest possible (rational) questions would be about different levels of ascention, i.e. accepting that the level of reality you exist on is not the only one, and rising above to the next level of existence.

Only difference is, that this is an entirely digital existence, but to be honest in this kind of philosophy, I don't think it really matters either way.

Did anyone ever read Johnothan Livingston Seagull? Same sort of thing.

davej

I bet in the third one they will realise that they are all in a movie and that the wachowskis are writing their characters. Along the lines of Sophie's World.

davej

Sposs

Originally posted by davej
I bet in the third one they will realise that they are all in a movie and that the wachowskis are writing their characters. Along the lines of Sophie's World.

davej

Somehow No i dont think so

Fence

Originally posted by vibe666
Did anyone ever read Johnothan Livingston Seagull? Same sort of thing.

And soon Neo won't have to spread his wings at all to fly

Bicky

Got the Animatrix last night in extra vision for 22.50 euro.
The guy said he was not sure if they were supposed to sell it yet. Its not on sale from amazon.co.uk for a few days.
Anyway i enjoyed the shorts. The four episodes written by the wachowskis are the most westernised and the most entertaining in my opinion as they reveal more of the plot of the films.
Final flight of the osiris has incredible cg animations as well as an explanation to its mention in reloaded.
The other five shorts are more artsy anime but the link with the matrix makes them that little bit cooler.
I have to do a project today so i didnt get the chance to watch any of the extras yet. Hopefully they will be good.

nesthead

Did the machines revive Tank to stop Cypher from killing Neo? What the hell happened to him? It says in the film hes dead but how? could he make a reappearance or did he just not want to do the film?(hed be crazy those films would set you up for life)

Skyclad

He had contractual issues and was written out of the other films...
Guess he dies of his injuries

Mr_Roger_Bongos

Papillion is right in saying :

"zion is part of the matrix and always was, the reson neo turns and uses his powers against the sentinals is because he had just been informed by the architect of that fact. before he assumed like we did, that zion, and all of the underground tunnels were outside of the matrix not part of it. plus how else could an agent infect a guy and pass through."

Question;

If they do indeed bring down the matrix of Zion, where will they go, how will they survive? What i mean is; in teh first film it took morpheus' ship to get neo out of teh water when he was initially "disconnected", + days of surgery to get his muscle tissue and eyes working. With no ship, will he not just drown or die, beacuse he will be unabel to move?

Skyclad

Im going to stick with my belief that the matrix is a submatrix of the "real world" rather then vice versa for the moment. If they take down the real world theres no telling what state the humans are actually in. If they just take down the matrix, then sure a lot of people will drown, but I dont really see that as being a great end to the film. Also, the other arguement that the matrix is a subprogram of the real world is that they are happy to reboot the matrix, but not the real world/Zion. The matrix returns a value to the real world/Zion program, the Zion program executes the matrix program again, all is happy. But if they reboot the "real world" then they lose all the information learned in the matrix, hence they have to just kill all the Zionists instead.

Other stuff I thought watching it again today...

1. The speech to neo made by the councilor on the engineering level works perfectly whether the councilor is in fact a human or a machine. Possibly even better if the councilor is a machine.

2. When Smith downloads into the real world, the next scene is Neo suddenly waking from one of his nightmares. Maybe he could sense stuff even before the meeting with the architect.

Dave

Captain Trips

Regarding the Oracle:
OK, so in the first movie, I presumed she was a human, still in the cocoon ****, but was aware of the reality of the matrix.

But in the second movie, it's pretty obvious (or is it? OR IS IT?) that she is part of the whole matrix program intended to reboot as she knows about the keymaster, Merovingian, etc., .

Just what the **** is going on? This movie is ****ing my head.

-ADREN-

Near the end when a hover craft comes to save neo, trinity etc, the one with agent smith on it, beside neo.. Didnt the captin of that ship and one or to other members sound awfully like the way Agent smith does? Like when that guy oppoiste neo on the ship spoke like agent smith (cause he was him) when he got caught trying to kill neo before he departed. Could be intresting.. cus the captin really did sound like an Agent smith.

AngelofFire

spoiler: i support the theory that the so called "real world" is a matrix outside the matrix, i believe that the love between trinity and neo is central to the fate of those in the matrix and outside it. The architect wants to repeat the cycle all over again in. Neo is the biggest obstacle in his way. He wrongfully assums that neo will choose the other door so that the cycle can be repeated. however neo subconsciously suspects something therefore he chooses to save trinity. his ability to revive her is a clear indication of his exceptional power. he witholds information of his meeting with the architect from morpheus until things become clearer. The choices of the "one" from each generation affects the fate of the matrixes.

Captain Trips

Matrices. MATRICES!!!!

Skyclad

Given the Matrix online game will be set in the matrix and after the third film, does this mean the matrix will still exist after that film? The game is written in assoc with Wachowski bros etc?

Dave