BBC goes FTA: 10th July

watty

We here are Enthusists!

Most people will still pay Chorus /NTL / Casey / Sky to have BBC1 and BBC2 on a menu rather than manually add 4 BBC regions, 15 BBC1 regions, BBC News 24, BBC3/Cbbebs and BBC4/Cbbc via other channels after repowering box.

After all how many Digibox owners in Ireland:
A) Know almnost all BBC radio is Freee on Digibox
know how to add it on other channels with out reboot
C) Know how to repowerr with UK FTA EPG inc BBC Radio
D) Listen to BBC Radio on Digibox, even though then might use R4 LW, or Analog Cable service now or past on Radio for BBC?

Frameless

From what I've heard (and I work in the TV trade) the BBC are adamant that they can still 'block' (their terminology) their signals in ROI.

Personally, I can't see how - if it's FTA then all you need is a FTA receiver. This 'footprint focused on the UK' is total rubbish. A look at the astra website shows the footprint can be received on a 60cm dish down nearly to the Balkans!!

The only way they can block Sky boxes is by tiering the cards someway, which seems impossible, but, as other contributors have pointed out, the Beeb won't want to lose the Irish Cable/MMDS/Sky revenue stream.

Interesting times ahead........will the Beeb drop the equivalent of an e-bomb on Irish Sky boxes?

Frameless

Originally posted by watty
We here are Enthusists!

Most people will still pay Chorus /NTL / Casey / Sky to have BBC1 and BBC2 on a menu rather than manually add 4 BBC regions, 15 BBC1 regions, BBC News 24, BBC3/Cbbebs and BBC4/Cbbc via other channels after repowering box.

After all how many Digibox owners in Ireland:
A) Know almnost all BBC radio is Freee on Digibox
know how to add it on other channels with out reboot
C) Know how to repowerr with UK FTA EPG inc BBC Radio
D) Listen to BBC Radio on Digibox, even though then might use R4 LW, or Analog Cable service now or past on Radio for BBC?

Hello Watty.

How do you repower with a UK menu??

John R

Originally posted by Frameless
From what I've heard (and I work in the TV trade) the BBC are adamant that they can still 'block' (their terminology) their signals in ROI.

Personally, I can't see how - if it's FTA then all you need is a FTA receiver. This 'footprint focused on the UK' is total rubbish. A look at the astra website shows the footprint can be received on a 60cm dish down nearly to the Balkans!!

The only way they can block Sky boxes is by tiering the cards someway, which seems impossible, but, as other contributors have pointed out, the Beeb won't want to lose the Irish Cable/MMDS/Sky revenue stream.

Interesting times ahead........will the Beeb drop the equivalent of an e-bomb on Irish Sky boxes?

As the whole point of the exercise is to rid themselves of sky's encryption costs they can't block access through cards. Most likely just leaving them out of the ROI EPG is what they mean, that will effectively 'block' viewing for most people.

carrolls

How do you repower with a UK menu??

It may seem funny, but it can be done.
Just put your Irish (Or any) card in upside down, and repower.
This just flicks a switch in the card slot that neuters the box.
Its unfortunately back to its original settings when you take out the card again. Up to the last O/S release this was not the case.

watty

Agreed. 90% of people won't bother getting BBC if it is not on EPG.

Blocking the ROI EPG is easy, In fact by default it is blocked, a Broadcaster having to pay more to be on EPG here and UK.

I'm sure that's what BBC means. It won't block Entuhusists nor cancelled ROI subscriptions.

Icehouse

The Media Guardian has just raised an interesting point - RTE pays for channels 101 and 102 (well, at least has a commercial deal that is ongoing with Sky for those EPG N°'s), whereas BBC is threatening to throw it's commercial deal out the window with Sky - Who will win?

http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,916080,00.html

Charles Slane

This is something from that report that I didn't know before -

"Anything that requires differentiation for different regions requires some sort of conditional access service from Sky. I don't see how the BBC are going to get around this"

What I understand from this is that if a channel is FTA it has to occupy the same EPG position in both Ireland and the UK, hence the problem with RTE and the BBC sharing the same EPG numbers (101 and 102).

This seems very strange.

Does anyone have an understanding of why this may be the case ?

carrolls

Obviously the way to solve this for Sky is simply not to do anything to the Irish cards except remove BBC1 & BBC2 NI from the EPG.
If you want the BBC's they can be programmed via 'Other channels'.
You could even leave BBC 1 & BBC2 NI in their current EPG slots without affecting the conditional (encryptive) aspects of the signal.
Placing channels on or off the EPG has nothing to do with the encryption aspects of the signal.
I think the Guardian have got a bee in their bonnet again about absolutely nothing for the third time this week.

DMC

I think this is a very bad article. Very poor.

Merged with the sticky.

lawhec

Damo, it is such a poor article that they have forgotten that by law, the five main terrestial broadcast channels must be allocated the first five spaces of an EPG, be it through Satellite, Cable (Analogue or Digital) or Digital Terrestial. Therefore the BBC would never lose the right to EPG no.s 101 & 102 in the UK.

The Guardian is actually a very left-wing newspaper, and would be the last piece of print to jump into bed with Rupert M. unless mankind was dependent on it.

icdg

Originally posted by Charles Slane
This is something from that report that I didn't know before -

"Anything that requires differentiation for different regions requires some sort of conditional access service from Sky. I don't see how the BBC are going to get around this"

What I understand from this is that if a channel is FTA it has to occupy the same EPG position in both Ireland and the UK, hence the problem with RTE and the BBC sharing the same EPG numbers (101 and 102).

This seems very strange.

Does anyone have an understanding of why this may be the case ?

Its' not neccessarly the case - S4C is #104 in Wales and a different channel no (around #184) elsewhere. However they can only alter the channel number from its default if a viewing card of some sort (with a postcode on it) is inserted. A Welsh box without a viewing card (and applying the method previously outlined to restore the default EPG) would return S4C to its default position and place Channel 4 on #104. (Of course, Channel 4 would then give an 08 message).

The person whom you are quoting from obviously doesn't understand that the BBC indeed have another method of changing EPG position - paying Sky to include a user-definable "BBC Region" option in Settings.

carrolls

I think its more a Media-Guardian Quality control issue than anything else. They have being trying to chisel cracks in the BBC plan without success since the Tuesday announcement.

Sin e an Fear

Personally, I can't see how - if it's FTA then all you need is a FTA receiver. This 'footprint focused on the UK' is total rubbish. A look at the astra website shows the footprint can be received on a 60cm dish down nearly to the Balkans!!

Ahem, Astra 2D IS focused on the UK. For the Balkans you're looking at at least a 1.5m dish- you need that in Gibraltar. It may still be picked up in Cyprus, but only just.

timpat

I see that news of BBC's FTA move has finally reached the Irish Times!!! See page 7 of today's paper. Could someone with access to Ireland.com post a copy of the article?

The Cigarette Smoking Man

BBC channels free from May by satellite dish
Jamie Smyth



People in Ireland will be able to receive eight BBC digital television channels and all its radio stations free of charge from May 30th if they own a satellite dish.

They will also be able to view a further 100 channels that are already broadcast free-to-air by satellite such as the Travel Channel, Fashion TV and CNN.

The decision by BBC to launch a new "freeview" satellite service in May will increase competition in the Irish market and could undermine the cable and satellite firms, NTL, Chorus and BSkyB.

From May 30th people who have a satellite dish and a set-top box will be able to get all the BBC channels free when it begins broadcasting on a new satellite.

This means the 272,000 subscribers to BSkyB's service in the Republic could simply cancel their existing contract with the firm and still receive the BBC and many other free channels.

It would be particularly easy for BSkyB's customers to switch to the new free system because they already own a dish and a set-top box, although most are contracted to Sky for a year under the terms of their subscriptions.

People who subscribe to the Irish cable companies, NTL and Chorus, would have to buy a satellite dish and a set-top box to receive the new service. One retailer, Electroplus in Santry, yesterday quoted a price of €360 for this electronic equipment.

Industry observers said yesterday the BBC move was significant and would have a knock-on effect on cable and satellite firms.

"For consumers who are only interested in getting British channels this will be an interesting move," said Mr Gary McCloskey, analyst with Mason Communications. "It is a sea change. How much demand there will be is difficult to predict."

Subscription to the basic television packages offered by BSkyB, Chorus and NTL can cost up to €18 per month depending on where a consumer lives. Therefore it would take less than a year and a half for users of the freeview system to recoup the cost of buying satellite equipment.

However, popular premium services such as sports and movies, from BSkyB and cable firms, would not be available to consumers who only buy the satellite equipment.

The BBC channels that will be available under the new service include BBC1, BBC2, BBC3, and BBC4. BBC News 24, CBBC, CBeebies, BBC Parliament will also be broadcast via satellite.

All the British broadcaster's radio stations will also be available to people with a satellite.

BSkyB would not comment yesterday on the potential threat posed by the new service.

The BBC's decision to launch a freeview satellite service was announced by its director-general, Mr Greg Dyke, last week as a move to save £85 million over five years. This is the value of the BBC's existing contract with BSkyB to carry and encrypt its channels on its satellite service.

By switching its channels to the Astra 2D satellite, the BBC will not have to encrypt its channels, making them available to any viewers with a satellite dish. A spokesman said it would also make its services more freely available and promote the take-up of digital television.

Meanwhile RTÉ, which signed a controversial deal with BSkyB for carriage on its satellite platform last year, said yesterday it had no plans to drop its contract with BSkyB in favour a freeview satellite system.

Mr Ray McGuire, RTÉ's contract manager with Sky, said the State broadcaster had a five-year contract with Sky until 2008.

icdg

I never thought I'd say this about the Guardian - they are (usually) one of the best UK newspapers around, but they really are getting their facts messed up now

A long article from MediaGuardian.co.uk today - I'll post only the relevant (and slightly inaccurate) bits

Irish twist to BBC/Sky row

---

Owen Gibson
Monday March 17, 2003

The BBC is facing exile in up to 6.6 million TV homes in an extraordinary power struggle that could force the government to choose between Rupert Murdoch and Greg Dyke.

The BBC director general's decision to sever ties with Sky TV in digital satellite broadcasting will mean viewers may no longer see BBC1 and BBC2 listings pop up first when they switch on their TVs because of a conflict of interest with an Irish broadcaster.

Instead it is likely viewers will to have to scroll through six pages of listings to find the two main BBC channels, which will be relegated to 52nd and 53rd slots in the on-screen equivalent of the Radio Times that helps satellite viewers navigate through hundreds of channels.

The BBC announced last week it was cutting free of the BSkyB TV network in a bid to save £85m in encryption fees, but it has now emerged that a contractual arrangement with RTE in Ireland could hamper its plans to go it alone.

The BBC currently pays Sky TV £150,000 a year to have the two top slots in the "electronic programme guide" but once the corporation moves to its own satellite, which will also broadcast straight into Ireland, it will no longer be guaranteed the prime positions.

RTE 1 and Network 2 channels are guaranteed the two top slots in the Republic and BSkyB insiders have indicated they will not be prepared to move them to make way for the BBC's new unencrypted broadcasts.

At the moment both the BBC and RTE can take top slots in the countries they serve because the conditional access technology allows parallel EPGs in different regions.

But because the BBC plans to use a new satellite that has a cross-border footprint this will become no longer possible.

And even if RTE was willing to move for the BBC, the broadcaster does not have the right to "trade" their slots with the BBC channels because the system is managed by Sky, which is obliged to provide EPG slots on a "fair and non discriminatory" basis.

---

As mentioned above, FTA channels can be moved in the Irish EPG, as exemplified by the previously mentioned case of S4C. Since RTE1 and N2 are not FTA, that means that they have no impact on the FTA EPG, where BBC ONE and BBC TWO can take top two positions.

carrolls

Irish Times:-
One retailer, Electroplus in Santry, yesterday quoted a price of €360 for this electronic equipment.

One of the UK Satellite magazines quoted the price of a 2000 channel FTA Satellite receiver at £99 Sterling +P/P. (€146.15)
I don't know how good this particular box is. But its there in black and white.
I would guess it is a similar model to the one Electroplus in Santry are selling.

byte

After reading the Guardian article, I initially started to think that maybe they had a point, but then I thought!

How come then the BBC radio channels which dont use conditional access, are not listed on ROI EPG? Thus their whole story wasnt thought out very well! :rolleyes: BBC TV being encryped or not is irrelevant to EPG positions...

Originally posted by John R
As the whole point of the exercise is to rid themselves of sky's encryption costs they can't block access through cards. Most likely just leaving them out of the ROI EPG is what they mean, that will effectively 'block' viewing for most people.

But surely, because, they will still have a contract with BSkyB for BBC1 and 2NI , in the republic of Ireland, that will give them a leg in , if they wish to request Sky to block their other services to the boxes with serial numbers registered with cards to Irish addresses.
That switch could be flicked, as easily as the one ITV network centre got flicked some time ago.:( :mad:

mm

Mossy Monk

are they blaming RTÉ now for the potential loss of EPG positions 101 and 102. isn't it law in the UK that all terrestrials must have the top 5 positions of the EPG. that is piss poor journalism. let's not forget when ITV News went off our EPG even though it was available through other channels FTA

Icehouse

Originally posted by Mossy Monk
are they blaming RTÉ now for the potential loss of EPG positions 101 and 102. isn't it law in the UK that all terrestrials must have the top 5 positions of the EPG. that is piss poor journalism. let's not forget when ITV News went off our EPG even though it was available through other channels FTA

Seemingly (according to various reports this week) that rule if it exists does not cover Sky. Sky are only obliged to give the BBC channels 'due prominence', meaning I suppose that they will not be put after the shopping channels ;op

The Guardian's reporting has been shockingly bad this week IMHO.

watty

The Gridironm report is very misleading and inaccurate.

If there is no card then you get FTA EPG. Mostly no pay channels.
There is UK Sub EPG.
A FTV card gives the UK Sub EPG. It could do something else.

Then there is the ROI sub EPG.

This is nothing to do with conditioal access, encryption etc.

* Only the UK Terrestrial have to put BBC1 and BBC2 as 101, 102.

* There have always been UK FTA channels not on the ROI epg, so BBC 1, 2, 3,4 and variations is nothing new. These appear if you repower box with a blank or upside down card to get FTA EPG. BBC Parliament, R1, R2, R3, R4 etc. They work also via other channels.

The latest Girdiorn article is most rescent in a week of scaremongering.

TH eUK is thinking of changing law to make BBC1 & 2 be 101 and 102, but this would not affect Ireland or Irish EPG at all.

Mostly a FTA station has to pay extra to be on ROI EPG as well as default FTA and UK Pay EPGs.
BBC never paid for Radio to be on ROI EPG. It was always there if you "switched" to FTA instead of Subscriber.

robert muldoon

Is'nt it about time BSkyB started telling its Irish customers what the hell is going on, eg. Does a new sky customer actually know for a fact if they will be able to get the BBC channels on their Irish epg, whether its at 101 or 214. Is there a danger that BBC will come off the Irish epg altogether?

Has anyone spoken to Sky in their Scottish bunker?

DMC

The phone monkies wont know... No point in ringing them...

Also, I'm sure Sky are aware of the facts of what might happen here post 30th May, but just_in_case, would you like to be first to ring them and ask them are we going to get the BBC for free in May, cos we are paying for them now? I'm sure they'd like the tip-off so they can put in a plan to block them. :rolleyes:

carrolls

I see that BSkyB have retaliated to the BBC move by almost trebling the amount needed to appear on the EPG from £28,000 a year to £75,000.
Will this move put the availabllity of the smaller FTA channels on the EPG at risk?
CNN should be ok. But the likes of Chart Show TV, Performance and pRock could be at risk.

http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,917665,00.html

Icehouse

Originally posted by carrolls
I see that BSkyB have retaliated to the BBC move by almost trebling the amount needed to appear on the EPG from £28,000 a year to £75,000.
Will this move put the availabllity of the smaller FTA channels on the EPG at risk?
CNN should be ok. But the likes of Chart Show TV, Performance and pRock could be at risk.

http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,917665,00.html

They haven't retaliated (according to the umpteenth hamfistedly written article by this MediaGuardian cretin this week) - the new fees were supposedly set at the start of this year. how about we all just wait and see as the specualtion on the Guardian site/ so-called sat news sites and boards is getting ridiculous. I bet BBC and Sky will hammer out some sort of a deal that makes them both happy.

Sin e an Fear

Yet another bit of tosh about the signal 'only covering the UK' http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,912752,00.html

Did you know that BBC D-G Greg Dyke has a villa in the Algarve? Assuming he's got a TV, he won't be watching Portuguese channels, and if he's got a satellite dish,he won't be watching BBC Prime!

Mossy Monk

Originally posted by watty
These appear if you repower box with a blank or upside down card to get FTA EPG. BBC Parliament, R1, R2, R3, R4 etc.

not anymore. all that's left is the 2 World Service radio channels. it would seem that this arguement between the BBC and Sky is getting petty

Icehouse

JUst came accross this and found it ironic that RTE will probably be amongst the loudest objectors to BBC being FTA to Ireland...

" RTE revealed as buyer of Irish longwave station
17 February 2003
The mystery buyer of the assets of Radio Tara, reported by Media Network on 4 February, turns out to be Irish public broadcaster Radio Telefis Eireann (RTE). According to the Irish Independent, RTE is planning to use the 500kW longwave transmitter on 252 kHz to broadcast to the Irish community in the UK. Programming may either be a relay of RTE Radio One, or a composite of the various RTE networks. RTE already broadcasts all its domestic radio networks across the UK on the Sky digital satellite network, which recently exceeded 6.5 million subscribers.
© Radio Netherlands Media Network."