BBC goes FTA: 10th July

Icehouse

Oops, hit submit twice...

Lennoxschips

RTE finally coming to their senses, only they're 20 years too late because LW is history.

TVDX

The fact that RTE bought longwave was no secret at all,
why this article says "revealed" i dont know,
that was known when Teamtalk 252 closed.

The station will basically be a mix of Radio 1, 2fm, R Na G.

Mossy Monk

Originally posted by Icehouse
JUst came accross this and found it ironic that RTE will probably be amongst the loudest objectors to BBC being FTA to Ireland...

why would RTÉ suddenly be objected to BBC broadcasting in this country. it is already available via satellite, cable, MMDS and deflector systems. wasn't it RTÉ that co-ran the cable network that supplied BBC to 1,000's of viewers

carrolls

Its pretty hard to find a portable radio with LW on it these days.
(as Teamtalk252 found to their cost).

telecinesk

Based on what I read and info passed on to me LOCALLY I have ordered a 0.3db lnb and a 1.5m dish. Astra 2D my ar**!
Mr Dyke, thanks for encouraging me to upgrade my system and giving me an excuse too..

watty

Originally posted by Mossy Monk
why would RTÉ suddenly be objected to BBC broadcasting in this country. it is already available via satellite, cable, MMDS and deflector systems. wasn't it RTÉ that co-ran the cable network that supplied BBC to 1,000's of viewers

Yes RTE was shareholder I tyhink in Cable Link.

Also fok in Dublin even watched BBC before ther was a RTE

watty

Originally posted by Icehouse
JUst came accross this and found it ironic that RTE will probably be amongst the loudest objectors to BBC being FTA to Ireland...

" RTE revealed as buyer of Irish longwave station
17 February 2003
The mystery buyer of the assets of Radio Tara, reported by Media Network on 4 February, turns out to be Irish public broadcaster Radio Telefis Eireann (RTE). According to the Irish Independent, RTE is planning to use the 500kW longwave transmitter on 252 kHz to broadcast to the Irish community in the UK. Programming may either be a relay of RTE Radio One, or a composite of the various RTE networks. RTE already broadcasts all its domestic radio networks across the UK on the Sky digital satellite network, which recently exceeded 6.5 million subscribers.
© Radio Netherlands Media Network."

Finally after 90 years RTE starts a foriegn service on Analog ... Just as everyone else has moved to Digital.

Originally posted by watty
Yes RTE was shareholder I tyhink in Cable Link.

Also fok in Dublin even watched BBC before ther was a RTE

Yes, there are people, alive around here in North Wexford, who can remember crowding into houses to watch Queen Elisabeth's coronation in 1952 on BBC Wales.
mm

icdg

The Cablelink system was originally known as RTE Relays Limited and was owned by RTE. (Some people in parts of Dublin may still have wall taps with "RTE RELAYS" written on them)

Following the acquisition of DCS and Marlin / Phoenix Relays, the name changed to Cablelink Limited in 1986. In the early 1990s, a large majority stake was sold to the then Bord Telecom Eireann.

TE and RTE were required to sell their stakes by the government in 1999, with NTL Inc the purchaser.

timpat

The article below in today's Media Guardian will be of interest. It seems BSkyB are now citing the fact that RTE have 101 and 102 here as the reason why an unencrypted BBC can't keep 101 and 102 in the UK??? It just doesn't make ANY sense!!!!! On that basis will the Brits get RTE on 101 and 102 or just a Blue screen or Sky One and Sky One Mix perhaps????


Satellite row may go to higher level

Dan Milmo
Tuesday March 25, 2003
The Guardian

The dispute between the BBC and BSkyB over a satellite broadcasting deal could be settled by regulators after talks between the broadcasters broke down last week.

The BBC told BSkyB this month that it no longer needed the group's encryption services, which cost £4m a year and would beam its channels to 6.6m Sky viewers through a different satellite.

BSkyB has warned that dispensing with the encryption system, known as "conditional access", would result in BBC1 and BBC2 losing their 101 and 102 positions on its pop-up listings service, the electronic programming guide. Experts believe demotion to the lower reaches of the EPG would damage the corporation's viewing figures in Sky homes.

A BBC spokesperson said the corporation would take its case to the Independent Television Commission if BSkyB removed its channels from the top of the programming guide.

ITC regulations state that public service broadcasters must have a position of "due prominence" on the EPG. "If they moved us off 101 and 102 we would go to the ITC ... We believe that we should have 101 and 102. If we don't get them we will appeal."

BSkyB said on Friday it would not provide conditional access services without payment after talks between the broadcasters broke up without agreement. The trigger for BBC demotion will be Irish state broadcaster RTE, which has a conditional access deal for the 101 and 102 positions on the BSkyB network in Ireland. The satellite booked by the BBC, Astra 2D, broadcasts to Ireland. BSkyB said it would remove the BBC from the top EPG slots on its UK and Ireland networks to protect its agreement with RTE.

"The 101 and 102 slots are taken by RTE in Ireland, which is a conditional access issue and if the BBC is not taking conditional access then that has to be addressed," a BSkyB source said. "It would be a decision that has been forced upon us by the BBC."

dmeehan

was there not a (media)gaurdian article about this last week?

Leesider

The BBC has failed to reach an agreement with Sky for placement of its regional channel variants on digital satellite, according to Broadcast.

Earlier this month the corporation announced it would be ditching Sky's conditional access system in a bid to save £85 million over five years. The system restricts viewing of channels only to the UK -- vital when broadcasters hold the rights to transmit shows in the UK alone -- and automatically gives the viewer their correct regional variant for channels which have them.

The BBC said it would be able to survive without the need to use the access system by switching all of its channels to the Astra 2D satellite, which has a reception aimed tightly at the UK. In order for viewers to receive their correct regional versions of BBC One and BBC Two, however, the corporation said it would still require use of part of the system, for which it offered Sky "a fair price."

Sky retaliated by pointing out that the BBC could lose the first two slots in its EPG -- channels 101 and 102 for BBC One and Two respectively -- since the Irish broadcaster RTÉ occupies the slots in the Republic. It also announced its intent to double the annual amount it charges broadcasters for listing channels in the EPG.

There has also been some outrage from viewers. Whilst the Astra 2D satellite is aimed principally at the UK, signals can still be picked up in Ireland, France, Iceland and parts of Northern Spain. Viewers in those countries with dishes large enough would be able to see the channels for free, without having to pay the licence fee like UK residents have to.

The BBC stuck to its guns saying it would still go ahead with the plan, and met with Sky at the end of last week to negotiate for use of the regional aspect of the system.

Broadcast reports that the meeting ended without agreement, deepening the rift between the two parties over the issue.

Sky sources told the magazine that the BBC arrived at the meeting without any technical solution to regional service selection, so in essence would still be using the conditional access system. One added that it couldn't remain on slots 101 and 102 in the EPG without using the system because it would cause a conflict in Ireland, where RTÉ currently resides.

The BBC, meanwhile, said it had gone to the meeting with "a full team of technicians" to discuss the specifics of the problems, but had only been given an hour to explain by Sky, who subsequently told them to "write it down and send it in a letter."

DMC

Leesider, what magazine was this taken from?

thrillseeker

I saw it here:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds10799.html

byte

Hmm, the plot thickens!

I'm still not fully sure how BBC being FTA will affect RTE channels. After all, the BBC Radio channels are mostly FTA but not listed on Irish EPG. Could the same not be done for the TV channels? I must be missing some "technical" issues as to why this cannot be achieved.

watty

Someone (mostly the Gridiron NewPaper) is talking rubbish.

Indeed the Digibox EPG is different for No Card, ROI Card and any UK card.

There are (or were) other EPG channels on a "Trade Card". (Tony??)

Of course BBC won't be on ROI EPG at all, as Radio is not at present, so the 101/102 is not an issue.

If in the unlikely event the Beeb paid to be on ROI epg as well as UK EPG, then, while 101 and 102 in UK, they couldn't be in ROI.

In fact they are already on 214 and 215 here with 3 alternat BBC2 regions, BBC3/Cbeebies, BBC4/CBBC, News24 and BBC Parliament all using EPG numbers in UK unused here.

So there is only a problem in the fevered mind of some media spin doctor.

Mossy Monk

someone should remind all involved that S4C, while FTA, manages to enjoy EPG number 104 in Wales and 184 everywhere else

timpat

Below is the latest offereing from the Guardian.

I know people have a low opinion of the Guardian's recent reporting on this but in fairness to them, as you will see from the article below and from yesterday's - comments about the BBC/RTE problem in relation to the 101/102 positions on the EPG are being quoted as coming from spokespersons from BSkyB and the BBC!!!

Two possibilities:
1 - there is a EPG conflict problem that we on this forum aren't aware of.
2 - BSkyB are trying to invent a problem for their own purposes.




BBC may lose local listing on BSkyB

Programme guide row puts viewers' access at risk

Matt Wells, media correspondent
Friday March 28, 2003
The Guardian

The BBC has admitted for the first time that it may not be able to force BSkyB to carry all its regional services at the top of its electronic programme access guide.

In a briefing note prepared for the House of Lords, it concedes that BSkyB could legally consign the regional services to obscure parts of its on-screen channel menu, making them more difficult for viewers to find.

It is an indication that the BBC did not appreciate the consequences of its decision this month not to renew its conditional access deal with BSkyB, which enabled regional variations of BBC1 and BBC2 to be broadcast on channels 101 and 102.

The pay-TV group is threatening to remove the BBC from 101 and 102 unless it signs a new access contract.

When it announced the end of the conditional access deal, the BBC said it would "continue to argue for clarification ... that 'due prominence' ... means making the right regional service available via slots 101 and 102".

But in a note to peers for the second reading of the communications bill in the Lords on Tuesday, which has been seen by the Guardian, it appeared to concede that "due prominence" does not extend to the provision of regional variations. "The current EPG regulations do not guarantee that viewers should be able to access the right regional version of the public service channels provided for them, where they would expect to find them on the EPG."

The corporation is in discussions with BSkyB to solve the problems created by the decision to end the conditional access deal, which it claims will save £85m over five years. The BBC has given BSkyB until Monday to provide a timetable on how to move forward.

It is prepared to pay BSkyB a "reasonable" price to develop software that would enable regional services to be shown on 101 and 102 while allowing Irish state broadcaster RTE to retain its slots on 101 and 102.

The BBC will broadcast its digital channels from the Astra 2D satellite from the end of May but the 2D footprint extends into Ireland, endangering RTE's position on the EPG.

If BSkyB refuses to cooperate, the BBC will appeal to the independent television commission. BSkyB argues that the BBC is attempting to use the "due prominence" rules to get, in effect, a free conditional access deal. The corporation says it is entitled to the slots and dismisses the "Irish problem".

However, BSkyB and its formidable lobbying team are determined to fight any ammendment to the communications bill that might force it to put the BBC's regional services on 101 and 102 without paying for a conditional access deal.

"If they get in law that they are entitled to a regional service at 101, that would contradict the legal requirement to offer access to the network on fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms," said a BSkyB source.

"We would have to supply conditional access technology to them for free - and to nobody else."

DMC

Originally posted by Mossy Monk
someone should remind all involved that S4C, while FTA, manages to enjoy EPG number 104 in Wales and 184 everywhere else

I've mailed them

DMC

I agree Timpat, I was quick to judge the original article, but at the time, it was a rambling piece that didnt make a lot of sense.

Since then, they have clarified it, and it is an issue. Now we know exactly whats the problem is, it will be interesting to see what happens.

freetoair

This business about the BBC's position on the EPG in Ireland is bogus.
Putting it simply, anyone watching SKY in Ireland with no card will not be allowed to receive RTE via SKY (as is the current position), therefore it makes no difference to the viewer if BBC comes through as 101 & 102, apart from the fact that BBC will be FTA.

Anyone using an Irish SKY card will get the Irish EPG, correct me if I'm wrong, but the EPG is just like a hyperlink to the channel/frequency, therefore Sky could give a channel any number it wants on the Irish EPG without impacting the UK EPG and vice versa.

Where the problems can arise is where viewers in the UK, not using a sky card, wish to see their regional variation. Obviously the digibox without the card won't know what their region is and will bring them to the default BBC region for FTV users.

I don't understand how RTE can have any impact on this, as BBC in Ireland will remain as 254

watty

The region thing is simple,
The Beeb want to make a once of payment to add an extra menu Item in Services called "Region".

The beeb think anyone at any time can change the region on the menu and then the selected BBC1 & BBC2 is 101 and 102. The other BBCs (which will be increased) won't have EPG numbers.

The same menu idea can work for ITV.

The RTE / ROI issue is a red herring unless the BBC wants to pay for EPG in ROI. In which case they pay for different epg numbers than UK.

The only real doubt is if Sky will add the Region Menu. If not, the "Main" BBC 1 and 2 is 101 and 102 in UK and other regional viewers will have to use "Add Channels" or find them at wierd numbers like BBC2 variations are (960, 961, 962). Possibly 963 to 977.

Neither case is affected by ROI EPG usage.

Obviously you can't fit 15 flavours of BBC1 and 4 flavours of BBC2 in the 100s EPG. This is nothing to do with RTE numbering.

I imagine that with an ROI card in the Region menu will be invisible. Ever checked the phone number page with ROI card normal and powerup with upside down card/ UK card / blank card?

It's about 5 minutes programming and 1 day testing...

Richard

Originally posted by Sin e an Fear

Ahem, Astra 2D IS focused on the UK.

AND the Republic of Ireland!

georgekildare

Is there a way of challenging the legal right for SkyB to control the design of digiboxes within the UK or Ireland under existing monopoly laws? What is clearly needed is a satellite receiver/digibox with a much more flexible favorites menu and the ability to assign any specified encoded or FTA program to any desired channel number.

byte

Taken from the Sky+ story on DigitalSpy

There will be an increase in the number of Favourite channels that can be stored

Doesn't say anything else so I guess it'll still use the Blue button to scan through faves.

Also notice that the A-Z listings will be expanded to cover a weeks programming which will be handy.

robert muldoon

Originally posted by watty
Someone (mostly the Gridiron NewPaper) is talking rubbish.

Indeed the Digibox EPG is different for No Card, ROI Card and any UK card.

There are (or were) other EPG channels on a "Trade Card". (Tony??)

Of course BBC won't be on ROI EPG at all, as Radio is not at present, so the 101/102 is not an issue.

If in the unlikely event the Beeb paid to be on ROI epg as well as UK EPG, then, while 101 and 102 in UK, they couldn't be in ROI.

In fact they are already on 214 and 215 here with 3 alternat BBC2 regions, BBC3/Cbeebies, BBC4/CBBC, News24 and BBC Parliament all using EPG numbers in UK unused here.

So there is only a problem in the fevered mind of some media
spin doctor.

Can someone just clarify something for me.
Wiil BBC be on the the ROi epg after 30th May and if not where will it be. If its not on the Sky EPG, that for me is a very serious retrograde step. As long as Sky Sports keeps to the standard it has at mom ,I will NOT be moving from it no matter what goes FTA. I just want to see ALL the channels on the same format, and for me that is on a Sky Irish EPG

DMC

BBC takes BSkyB to ITC

Chris Tryhorn
Monday March 31, 2003

http://media.guardian.co.uk/city/story/0,7497,926661,00.html

The BBC is taking its dispute with BSkyB over satellite channel slots to the TV regulator after talks between the two sides broke down.
The corporation claims that BSkyB has threatened to demote BBC channels from the first and second slots at the top of the electronic programme guide once the BBC stops paying it to encrypt its channels in two months' time.

Its last-ditch attempt to find a compromise through the intervention of the independent television commission comes just weeks after the BBC declared it was severing links with BSkyB in a bid to save £85m in satellite encryption charges.

Today the BBC said that BSkyB "had not given a satisfactory response" to its proposals for a compromise and had no option but to call in the regulators. "We are preparing a submission," a BBC spokesman said.

The involvement of the ITC in matters concerning the corporation is extremely rare, although not unprecendented - all the BBC's commercial channels are licensed by the watchdog.

BSkyB refused to comment but a senior source said: "All I can say is that we are not surprised. They have told us as much before."

In a briefing note, the BBC complained that BSkyB has threatened to demote BBC1 and BBC2 from the top EPG slots - possibly to the 52nd and 53rd slots, the last possible slots devoted to general entertainment channels.

BSkyB insists this is not a threat - it cannot allow the BBC to be broadcast unencrypted and preserve the first and second slots.

This is because unencrypted broadcasts can be picked up in Ireland, where BSkyB has already allocated Irish broadcaster RTE the first two channels in line with local commercial interests.

The BBC says it would be easy to differentiate the EPGs of British and Irish satellite viewers, and claims the Irish problem is a "complete red herring".

"RTE pays for conditional access, they can overwrite us," said a BBC spokesman. "We don't broadcast in the Republic of Ireland."

The BBC is guaranteed positions of "due prominence" on the EPG according to ITC guidelines. The government's communications white paper adhered to that phrase, but said that it "need not mean 'at the top' of the list".

Another complication is the status of regional variations of channels.

The BBC wants viewers in any region to access the appropriate versions of BBC1 or BBC2 in the first and second slots.

But it conceded in a note to the House of Lords that "the current EPG regulations do not guarantee that viewers should be able to access the right regional version of the public service channels provided for them, where they would expect to find them on the EPG."

---

Heh. I'll quote again....

"RTE pays for conditional access, they can overwrite us," said a BBC spokesman. "We don't broadcast in the Republic of Ireland."

So, can someone tell me what appears on 214 and 215 of my EPG again, please?

SRB

That deal is between BBC NI, Worldwide and Sky - I doubt many BBC people outside NI and Worldwide even know it exists.

carrolls

"RTE pays for conditional access, they can overwrite us," said a BBC spokesman. "We don't broadcast in the Republic of Ireland."

I do wish that when the Beeb give briefings on this subject
they would at least get the technical details correct.
Like BBC do broadcast to Ireland. But on different slots on the EPG.
If BBC use the same argument when the case comes up, all BSkyB need to do is to is counter argue that BBC do broadcast in the Republic, and Sky have won.
I think the Beeb should (at the very least) get their technical details correct before they argue their legal case.