BBC goes FTA: 10th July

timpat · 13-03-2003 2:20pm

re. steering of beams on Astra 2d.

Indeed it seems that it is not possible. Below an extract from a post on another forum:

"The Astra 2D satellite has no "steerable" beams. It has one type of footprint with 16 transponders. This only footprint has a much tighter beam to the UK, as the satellite is a very "weak" one actually, with low power consumption. It was built very fast and was a cheap satellite.
However it still has a so called "overspill". The footprint shown at the Astra Homepage is by far not correct....This cant be changed by the BBC, as the power pattern within the beam cant be changed. (ie more power in the inner part of the print, less at its edges) This would require a different TX aerial on the satellite."

SRB · 13-03-2003 2:22pm

I would imagine both BBC1(NI) and BBC2(NI Digital) will remain on the Irish EPG as SKy and BBC Worldwide still have an agreement in force.

===========================================
This raises an interesting issue. BBC Worldwide, BBC NI and Sky have an agreement which is still in place. In theory there is no reason why any cards registered to Irish Boxes shouldn't still be tied to the ROI Sky subscription. Now before everyone jumps down my throat saying "ah, no encryption means a free for all" remember that it is possible to issue two different sets of software to the boxes, the Irish EPG is a minor example. There is no reason why BBC1 NI and 2 NI can't stay where they are for Irish Boxes, but the free to air services could be on 2D with (so far) non standard Digibox Symbol Rates.... any box with a UK address (you may well still need a card) gets a s/w upgrade to allow it to use, say SR 26000, any box outside the UK remains unable to use SR 26000.
Again before anyone jumps in with, just take the card out, you'll still need the card for the ROI channels, and it is possible to stop the box swaping s/w when you take a card out as it stays with the last version the card was tied to. As for buying free to air boxes, yes this is an option but how many "normal" people do you think will want to go down the line of 2 boxes in their homes ?Sky and the BBC may have "fallen out" but Worldwide, BBCNI and Sky would still be able to cover costs using the method above....

Dyke was known to have wanted BBC services free to air for a long time, this method could well allow him to do so with out the previous rights headache.

DMC · 13-03-2003 2:30pm

Speaking of Dyke and rights issues, this from his speech last night....

"It's [moving FTA] possible for us to do this now for two reasons. To reiterate, firstly we are nearing the end of our current five-year contract with Sky and have no legal obligation to renew. And second we have an opportunity to move all our services to a recently-launched satellite whose signal is aimed specifically at the UK and Ireland and will not spill over across the rest of Europe. This means many of the rights problems we would have had on the existing satellite disappear. "

Is he saying, "ah sure, if the paddies can get it, then thats ok, we'll let them!" or am I reading too much into that....

watty · 13-03-2003 2:35pm

Originally posted by DMC
Greg Dyke made a speech to the London Business School's Media Alumni Dinner last night, which makes for interesting reading. I wont post it here, its too long, but its an insight to the decision taken yesterday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/speeches/stories/dyke_londonbusinessschool.shtml

Brilliant Speech.

Start new thread... After stuffing 400,000 copies of this into Dermot Ahern's office and 400,000 copies into the offices of Dublin's Public Service Broadcaster .. RTE.

Campain for Free To Air Irish TV for Ireland (and we nor British will complain if the UK gets it free too).

I have spoken and emailed extenivly with RTE since they went on Satellite. They seem to think Satellite is an Aerial version of NTL/Chorus cable and that only "Multichannel Subscribers" have Satellite!

How do we "educate them".

Did Dermot Ahern know about BBC announcement the other week when he burbled about a Pan Ireland Freeview or just coincidence?

Notice Dyke mentions "UK and Ireland". Suddenly I like him. What is his address for the Christmas card list?

Stiabhna · 13-03-2003 2:50pm

Look on the bright side - Sky could use this as a marketing ploy in Ireland

If all the BBC channels are FTA, SKY could pull a fast one over Chorus and NTL by including them on the Irish EPG. Surely this wouldn't contravene any rights laws.

Maybe we should point this out to them....

S.

timpat · 13-03-2003 3:21pm

I agree with Stiabhna.

It would make a lot of sense for Sky to capitalise on this in the Irish market. That is why I don't believe they will seek to block the channels(not that I think they can anyway!)

Rather it would make sense for them to negotiate with BBC Worldwide to put the full BBC 'suite' on the Irish EPG.

Its a win-win situation really for both parties (provided Mr. Dyke's comments about rights not being a substantial issue in a UK-Ireland context is correct).

Think about it - Sky would be able to promote Sky Digital here on the basis that it is the only provider which carries BBC3/4/News 24/CBBC/Cbeebies. You can see the newspaper adds already!

Also BBC Worldwide would net a few bob from the deal as well (no doubt the principle of Sky paying them rather than the other way round would please them no end)

jmcbride · 13-03-2003 3:48pm

I'll be paying a visit to Germany in June. Think I might pay a visit to one of the large electronics chain stores like Saturn or Media Markt to pick up a cheap FTA box for BBC viewing. Last time I was in one of those stores, I'm pretty sure they were selling digital receivers for as little as €120. Other than losing digital text and interactive content, I presume they'll be spot on for the job.

Icehouse · 13-03-2003 4:01pm

Jmcbride, you can buy FTA satellite dish (60cm) + Maestro digital receiver here in France for about €60 - just pay a visit to a hardware store like Conforama if you're ever here. During the sales the supermarkets (Hypermarkets) like Carrefour or Leclerc sell things at really silly prices - I bought my dish for 10€ and have enjoyed watching Sky since (bought a Digibox on ebay)

I see the Guardian are talking about the footprint stretching way beyond the UK - somebody shut them up please ;o)

http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,913487,00.html

jmcbride · 13-03-2003 4:10pm

Icehouse, the one worry I would have about going as low as €60 (and that seems well below the lowest price I saw in Media Markt last December) relates to an experience I had when I lived in Salzburg in the mid-90s. I bought the cheapest analogue receiver in the store, but could never get a decent reception. Admittedly I was propping the thing up on a chair in the balcony of my flat, but after a couple of months a colleague at work lent me their, rather better box, which gave me a far, far better reception. As a result, I'm a little disinclined to go for the cheapest option.

Anyway, as things stand at the moment I have a digibox (I'm a very happy customer of Tony's), and a second box would be more for playing with, rather than as a prime machine. When the only non-Sky channels were the likes of the Sailing Channel, I didn't feel much in the way of an incentive to buy an FTA box. Now, it's a different matter.

Lennoxschips · 13-03-2003 4:46pm

This brings multi-channel to the masses. If ITV and C4 follow suit, people in rural Ireland will be able to get RTE/TV3/TG4 on analogue, and all the English channels on FTA satellite.

Goodbye MMDS, and good f****** riddance!

Also, with an FTA box you can order your channels anyway you want, no more typing in ridiculous Sky EPG channel numbers!

Tony · 13-03-2003 5:06pm

Originally posted by Icehouse
Does anyone know anymore about this notion that Astra 2D has steerable beams - Theoretically if the BBC can get transponders on those beams they could hit the UK only - maybe that's their plan and we're wasting our time celebrtaing yesterday's news?!

Bear in mind they have to hit NI, beams that stop at borders have not been invented yet.

Tony

Lennoxschips · 13-03-2003 5:12pm

Luckily radio waves don't care about human politics.

lawhec · 13-03-2003 5:18pm

The idea that you could have a beam which could include Derry, Strabane, Castlederg, Belleek, Belcoo, Roslea, Aughnacloy, Keady & Newry easily within a 45cm dish whilst not being available in Letterkenny, Ballyshannon, Lifford, Swalinbar, Emyvale and Dundalk without some 1.8m monster is something that isn't possible. Besides, a satellite footprint is never 100% steady. Because of the movement of the satellite within it's "cube" the footprint moves very slightly with it. Here for Astra this is never a problem - it is only for those on the very edges of footprints like those saying they can only watch ITV on certain times of the day in the south of Spain. This is what causes it.

It could be perhaps possible to have an extremely tight footprint to cover Great Britain, but this would have to exclude N.I. and also the Channel Islands.

Ludo · 13-03-2003 5:22pm

I think this is the footprint of the satellite in question...

http://www.smw.se/footprint/astra2d.htm

watty · 13-03-2003 5:53pm

Oh Ho!
http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,913487,00.html

The Beeb seem confident though. Could it be they have already submitted a study of potential Europe Audiance on 2D vs UK FTV cards and Sky Subs outside of British Isles?

Perhaps number of "Mainland Europe" 2D watchers would be less than current number of cards out there?

Did someone get job of going round all the Pubs in Europe Mainland to count Digiboxes?

Or is Qty of FTV cards and Sky Subs exceed number of UK TV licences :-)

Icehouse · 13-03-2003 6:22pm

The Guardian are pretty excited about all this :
http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,913726,00.html

DMC · 13-03-2003 6:28pm

The answer to the SPL will be simple. Blackouts.
Its still works out cheaper than paying Sky £85m.

Richard · 13-03-2003 6:54pm

Originally posted by icdg
ITV is tied into a contract with Sky, but in any case, will probably want to "wait and see" how this BBC move pans out.

If the BBC suceeds in pursauding Sky to change its software (not exactly easy!), then ITV could hop on the back of this move.

The thing is, the software selector would probably have to have options to select both ITV and BBC region.

The problem with this would be that it would need to be adapted any time another channel wanted to make use of it. Channel 4 have several regional versions, which don't necessarily coincide with ITV Regions.

It might be possible for the viewer to input a postcode and for the box to use that to decide on the region. A data stream could be used to tie a postcode sector (i.e. down to the BT99 1 level) to the BBC/ITV/Ch4 versions.

But in any case - interesting times ahead....

Sin e an Fear · 13-03-2003 6:58pm

Actually, it ISN'T as bad news for people in mainland Europe as you may think. I was in Gibraltar last year and ITV1 via Astra 2D was clearly receivable. If the BBC thinks that moving to 2D will reduce the problem, it's sadly mistaken.....

Richard · 13-03-2003 6:59pm

Originally posted by watty
50 channels has never worked very well.
It was the "Personal Planner" upgrade some long while ago seemed to coincide with even less reliable "Other Channels"
It seems "mostly" OK with less than 20.

Last time I checked (Last week) there were over 40 channels in the "Other Channels". Will this change only kick in if I delete channels form the line-up?

robert muldoon · 13-03-2003 8:31pm

Does all this mean that I wont be able to get any BBC Channels on my FTV card in Spain from end of May? Its in an appartment block with a huge dish?

byte · 13-03-2003 8:44pm

Originally posted by robert muldoon
Does all this mean that I wont be able to get any BBC Channels on my FTV card in Spain from end of May? Its in an appartment block with a huge dish?

If you can pick up ITV1 regions, then you should not have any problems as ITV are using 2D also.

sayireland · 14-03-2003 12:25am

Does all this mean that I wont be able to get any BBC Channels on my FTV card in Spain from end of May? Its in an appartment block with a huge dish?

What part of Spain are you in? I'm in Madrid and can pick up some 2D with a 1.35 but I'm interested to know how other people are getting on?? When you say huge how huge do you mean??

robert muldoon · 14-03-2003 9:34am

Originally posted by sayireland
Does all this mean that I wont be able to get any BBC Channels on my FTV card in Spain from end of May? Its in an appartment block with a huge dish?

What part of Spain are you in? I'm in Madrid and can pick up some 2D with a 1.35 but I'm interested to know how other people are getting on?? When you say huge how huge do you mean??

When BBC Changes to the astra 2d, looking at the footprint, it only touches Northern Spain, My place is in Marbella. So the question I'm asking ,will we be able to get the signal. The dish is about 4 or 5 times the sixe of the standard mini dish

dmeehan · 14-03-2003 10:11am

Originally posted by Sin e an Fear
Actually, it ISN'T as bad news for people in mainland Europe as you may think. I was in Gibraltar last year and ITV1 via Astra 2D was clearly receivable. If the BBC thinks that moving to 2D will reduce the problem, it's sadly mistaken.....

i was in turkey on holidays last year and ITV was clear receivable there albeit with a MASSIVE dish

watty · 14-03-2003 10:32am

I don't believe that an organisation (BBC)that:
* Has faders on mixing desks the "wrong" way round
* Funny pointy 3 pole 1/4" jacks
* Sound level meters in Black with White writing that doen't work like VU meters.
* Lots of other thoughfull stuff

Is going to have announced this without a lot of thought. The 2D changeover / footprint malarkey is to allow many of the "rights" owners to "save face" when they do nothing.

No doubt one or two will make a fuss.

(And yes there are *GOOD* reason for all the wierd stuff).

I have always privately suspected that the reason you can ring up the FTV centre regularly in a Thick German/Spanish/Italian accent is that ultimatly niether ITV, BBC or even Sky give a toss who has a FTV card, as long as the "rights" holder deamons are placated.

Has anyone ever heard of a prosecution or even a threatning letter?

The cardboard carrier of FTV card is a masterpiece of legal doublespeak and used to be the *SAME* as the one for ROI cards, implying that even Sky saw no "legal" issue with FTV card in ROI.

Note: Sky/NDS/BSkyB own *ALL* viewing cards, UK Sub, Cancelled UK sub, FTV Card, ROI Card, Cancelled ROI card.

carrolls · 14-03-2003 12:00pm

The BBC's point (well Dykes point actually) is that in order to get BBC in most of mainland Europe, you have to be a dedicated satellite enthusiast.
Much the same as anyone at the moment with FTV cards in mainland Europe.
The number of European BBC viewers in the main scheme of things will be miniscule and that will be the point he will be getting across to Sports bodies and programme makers.
The Guardian newspaper yesterday seemed to be getting its knickers in a twist over the rights issue in Europe.
(Are they affiliated to Murdoch by any chance?)

Leesider · 14-03-2003 12:45pm

Did any of the Irish newspapers print anything about this news story?

I wonder what the board-rooms (if they exist!) of Chorus and NTL are saying??

The Boards.ie will probably go into meltdown on May 30th.....

Icehouse · 14-03-2003 4:25pm

Don't you mean June 1st? The BBC/Sky current contract ends on May 30th. Better clear this up now so as to avaoid lots of 'It didn't happen' messages on May 30 !!

sceptre · 15-03-2003 12:28am

Originally posted by carrolls
The Guardian newspaper yesterday seemed to be getting its knickers in a twist over the rights issue in Europe.
(Are they affiliated to Murdoch by any chance?)

Independent trust - I don't think the titles can even be sold to another party under the trust terms.

BBC goes FTA: 10th July

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