BBC goes FTA: 10th July

watty

Originally posted by Stiabhna
"ITV currently needs Sky's conditional access facilities in order to deliver the best regional service to viewers," he added. .

Baloney! All ITV regions are available via "other channels" with FTV card, cancelled UK sub card or UK Sub. It is only an EPG payment to keep it that way if they don't use encryption, exactly as BBC proposes to allow 1 of 15 BBC1s to be 101.
The way epg works is separate.

For what BBC wants, though, sky would have to add a "region menu" in the Services | Setup as there might not be a card to tell box which region it is.

Then an Scotsman in London can change his settings and have BBC Soctland as 101.

If Sky won't do this, then "Main" BBC 1 (London?) will be 101 and the other BBC1s will be currently unused EPG numbers.

Similar applies to 102, 960, 961 and 962. If BBC gets menu added, your own BBC2 will be 102 (as at present), otherwise The 102, 960, 961, 962 will be current England Layout.

(Those of you who have only ever seen an ROI epg havn't a clue waht I'm warbling about though?)

icdg

ITV is tied into a contract with Sky, but in any case, will probably want to "wait and see" how this BBC move pans out.

If the BBC suceeds in pursauding Sky to change its software (not exactly easy!), then ITV could hop on the back of this move.

The thing is, the software selector would probably have to have options to select both ITV and BBC region.

Its easy for us - BBC NI = UTV.

But for Scotland, you have BBC Scotland, but a choice of STV, Grampian, or Border. You'd need independent selectors for BBC and ITV. But if one can be done, then the other could also.

Now here's something. Can different versions of the software be applied to ROI and UK? Will we get this selector also? The answer should be "no", but wait and see...

carrolls

Great news, but how will Sky react in the short term?
Reduce Subacription rates,;)
Block Sky News.:mad:
Will ITV & Channel 4 follow suit and go FTA?
Do we need to reposition our satellite dishes to receive Astra 2D?

Icehouse

>>For what BBC wants, though, sky would have to add a "region menu" in the Services | Setup as there might not be a card to tell box which region it is.

Maybe the BBC are just asking Sky to implement software technology they know Sky already have? We'll have to wait and see but I'm happier today than I was yesterday. Bet a lot of "FTV-iewers" are breathing a sigh of relief as well, if the Beeb does go FTA

Icehouse

>>Do we need to reposition our satellite dishes to receive Astra 2D?

not unless you have problems receiving 2D at the moment, or you've been pointing at Hotbird lately ;op

Darby OGill

I'm not too well up on the various agreements between Sky/BBC/chorus/NTL, so these questions might be daft-

1. If BBC goes free-to-air on Astra 2D and is readily available in Ireland as a result, Sky and the others will lose those customers who are only subscribing in order to get BBC (and even more if ITV/channel 4 follow suit). While the numbers might not be huge, there is a loss of income to the various providers, and presumably the BBC. Why would the BBC make their services available free to Ireland, given that we pay no licence fee to them, when they currently get an income for this very service?
2. Can Sky block or otherwise attempt to interfere with the signal which is being processed through a Sky digibox? (I'm suggesting that Sky would be so pissed off with this development that they could say to customers or ex-customers- Sod off and buy a different free-to-air receiver if you want BBC-no way will we help you!)

watty

Some of the Sky Channels you get ARE on 2D, so reception is not an issue.

Extra cost of Rights / Loss of earnings for ROI (< 1M viewers?) is peanuts compared to about 15M stg per year saving on Encryption.

Ultimately We don't pay Licence Fee for RTE, nor UKers for BBC, though RTE and BBC funded from licence. Ulimately Licence Fee is a tax on having TV reception. (Though a letter I saw suggested that in UK if you can prove you receive only foriegn, not even C4 or "Five", they could waive licence fee!)

2. I think UK Gov would take very dim view of Sky blocking BBC. If it FTA in UK with no card, a Digibox anywhere in signal area can be made to work. Neither BBC nor UK gov would care if it it blocked on ROI EPG (it would be very unlikely it could be fTA in UK and not work via "other Channels" here.

Don't forget, unlike NTL or Chorus, or Ill fated On Digital Subscribers, EVERY ROI and UK Sky Digibox is "Owner / Occupied".

The only two conditions on ownership is that if you cancel sub in first year you are liable for repayment of any initial subsidy. Still your box. The other condition is that Sky own the EPG and Operating system software on your box....
But you don't own your PC OS eithier! You have a "licence" to use it! Nor do you own the SW in the 3 or 4 microcontrollers in your VCR or DVD player. So I wouldn't overly worry about Sky's ownership of the OS and EPG SW.

If someone wants to distribute BBC outside of UK they need to pay. If the want to redistribute BBC inside UK they need permission.

BBC NI Divis can be recieved in much of East, Midlands and Boarder. Even in Limerick on Keepers hill. It doesn't affect Chorus or NTL.

C5 could be received in whole of Ireland FTA on Analog Satellite till last Sky Channel closed.

If people can receive BBC by "other means" it does not affect Chorus / NTL, other than their competitiveness and what they might be prepared to pay BBC.

For years Cable & MMDS companies have been BBC parasites rather than offering a "real" quality multichannel service. Sky's entry to Multichannel market in Ireland has, I beleive helped. A sensible Digital MMDS package now exists (would it ever hace gone Digital otherwise?) and has dropped from nearly 39 Euro to 27 Euro for a sensible 38 channel Lineup, only due to Sky competition.

Basically in the past people got cable or MMDs for BBC, and because they couldn't put up their own "mast" for BBC.

Tony

Originally posted by icdg
In any case all you would still need is a non-subsidised digibox? Tony has them for EUR 400 for a Sky one (which I would want if at all possible, since it would contain the Sky Active engine needed to access BBCi). He also has a cheap FTA reciever for EUR 220, but the dish and installation will set one back to nearly EUR 600 for the package...

Actually its a little cheaper @ €459 fitted with 80cm dish or €179 for receiver only. Thanks for the plug I hope you dont mind me correcting that.

Tony

timpat

Judging from the debate I have seen here and elsewhere today it seems that all of the BBC suite will be available to us in ROI from 30 May on DS via Add Channels as Astra 2d covers Ireland. Sky can't block them because that would mean using a form of encryption which BBC are no longer signing up to.

It would seem like a good idea for Sky in Ireland to exploit this development by negotiating a fresh deal with BBC Worldwide for an EPG placing for all the BBC channels here on the basis that we will be able to see them anyway by listing them under Other Channels. It would certainly provide Sky with an edge over NTL and Chorus.

Today's developments don't however resolve the 'age old' "UTV and C4 sometime before the end of time" issue as it seems from articles I have seen that Channel 4 will be sticking with the Sky encription system due to E4 and Film Four. Also ITV are locked into a deal until August 2004 and I suppose after what happened today Sky will try to negotiate some form of deal with ITV next year to keep them on board. (Has anyone heard a peep of a reaction from the C5 camp?)

Does that seem like a fair assessment?

watty

Subscriptions are anything from 15 Euro to 50 Euro p.m.

At 26 Euro what you save in a year pays for a digibox...

Don't forget for the Interactive / Active stuff you need a Digibox.

Personally I use a Satellite Receiver for WATCHing TV or LISTENING radio, Internet miles better for interactive.

I'm happy with Teletext. Unfortuanately BBC has dumped it on Satellite, but CNN's telextext news is Good and Though RTE is encrypted on my PC receiver the Teletext still works (PC caches ALL the pages and lets you mouse click on page numbers, and copy/paste to windows apps.)

timpat

...also just a thought - We can currently add BBC Parliament to our Channel line-up - is that because this is a Free to Air channel and if so, then applying the same logic - all BBC Channels will have the same status as Parliament in which case it stands to reason that we should be able to add them to the line-up of Other Channels in the same way???

rlogue

I'd say at best Irish viewers will be able to manually add the BBC channels to their digiboxes, but would it not be possible to block RoI viewers from the other BBC channels?

In any case, I would have thought that a manual reboot of the box with the card taken out would allow Irish viewers to watch the whole lot of the beeb.

Happy Days!

Lennoxschips

Re ITV, C4, C5... Question: Would any FTV card/expired UK Sky card would do for these? i.e. I remember last year that the FTV card doesn't need to be married to your box for itv/c4/c5, I assume this is still true?

Re 2D satellite: Not necessarily bad news for Europe. I can recieve 2D absolutely perfect in Holland with a 50 cm dish that is slightly misaligned (It was windy and I'm too lazy to fix it). I've heard that with a large dish you can get 2D as far south as Northern Italy. (2D is bad news for bar/cafe owners in southern Spain though, obviously)

muffinhead

I got an FTV card, which I activated last week. However, since then I have been trying out manual channel tuning on Sky (with my Irish sub-card) and I have been able to pick up Channel 4, Five & ITV (all regions are available incl. UTV)! Has anyone else tried this or does everyone use an FTV card to get these channels??

Originally posted by muffinhead
I got an FTV card, which I activated last week. However, since then I have been trying out manual channel tuning on Sky (with my Irish sub-card) and I have been able to pick up Channel 4, Five & ITV (all regions are available incl. UTV)! Has anyone else tried this or does everyone use an FTV card to get these channels??

If it is your Irish card that is giving you the UK channels, then it is one of those flukey cards
99.9% of Irish sub cards will give the blue screen with the "08" message channel unavailable
mm

TVDX

Message to Watty!,
i was reading one of your earlier posts that sky was operating the ftv scheme and that it would keep going for the remaining channels.

But what i want to know is will they now not bother replacing the cards that they have issued or will they still go ahead and replace them?.

Will they still be issuing new cards?.

Originally posted by icdg
In any case all you would still need is a non-subsidised digibox? Tony has them for EUR 400 for a Sky one (which I would want if at all possible, since it would contain the Sky Active engine needed to access BBCi).

Or you could take a daytrip on the train to Newry ( aprox €22 ) and buy a sky plus for €330
And then pay Tony for the install
mm

Originally posted by TVDX
Message to Watty!,
i was reading one of your earlier posts that sky was operating the ftv scheme and that it would keep going for the remaining channels.

But what i want to know is will they now not bother replacing the cards that they have issued or will they still go ahead and replace them?.

Will they still be issuing new cards?.

Watty said earlier that this could still al be just a negotiaion ploy by the BBC...but maybe not We won't know till later on but it augers well anyhow.

In answer to your question, Sky will have to continue to issue the new cards for FTV viewers as their contract with the BBC still stands and are doing so at the moment.
mm

muffinhead

I get the blue screen when I try to tune in BBC1 Scotland but my BBC1 NI still hasn't been activated on my Irish sub-card so i'll see if that comes on when BBC1 NI is activated!

Am I just lucky to get CH4, 5, BBC3, BBC4, ITV1, ITV2, BBC News 24, Cbeebies & CBBC channel without an FTV card !

watty

Originally posted by rlogue
I'd say at best Irish viewers will be able to manually add the BBC channels to their digiboxes, but would it not be possible to block RoI viewers from the other BBC channels?

In any case, I would have thought that a manual reboot of the box with the card taken out would allow Irish viewers to watch the whole lot of the beeb.

Happy Days!

Result of research into this posted. Taking out card or a New Install in Service menu does not work. Solution is a little bit more bizzare!

Charles Slane

This is indeed very interesting news but as any long-time reader of these boards will realise - it is obviously the BBC's reaction to the "Campaign for BBC" thread !!!! (Just kidding !!)

There are a few ways that this can go, but one that's a bit worrying is that the FTV cards will be done away with and ITV, Channel 4 and Five will become UK subscription only.

If the Beeb go completely FTA there will surely be issues concerning Radio Five Live's sports rights. Remember that was the only radio channel the Beeb went to the trouble of scrambling.

It's a BIG MAD story. And we haven't heard the last of it by a long shot. this one will run and run.

Paul007

Originally posted by watty
Anyone got the old basic EPG with no pay channels listed to come up since last SW update on box with ROI card?
It would be nice to fit a switch

Take the viewing card out and re-boot the box with the card inserted upside down.

Works for me.

watty

In fact any not-a-satelite card. Just need to activate the switch at back of slot. Need real power off though.

Paul007

Sorry, I've just seen your "How to get an EPG with FTA only inc BBC Radio" post after I had replied.

Richard

Interesting, very interesting...

Originally posted by DMC
BBC ONE and TWO will still be there, the BBC will still recieve payment from Sky for them, but either the other services will be in the clear in "other channels" or blocked.

How can they be blocked, though? If they are unencrypted, they are unencrypted, and can't be blocked. For example, BBC Parliament is unencrypted - but it is just missing from the ROI EPG.

I wonder whether Sky will still pay the BBC money for them, though. Why should it, if anyone can get a DSat receiver and pick up the channels?

Even more worryingly, if there is nothing to be gained by the BBC being available on in the ROI EPG, will BBC ONE and TWO be removed? Of course there will still be "Other Channels"...

I wonder also - will this lead to a reduction in Time-Shifting? If all regions are in the clear, they may want to stop time-shifting so that there are fewer repeat fees.

lawhec

Great news! Yes, even from up here!

There is no physical way $ky could block an unencrypted channel. And as the BBC have decided to forego all encryption, $ky can't block the BBC services to the Irish Republic unless a digibox was programmed to ignore channels on the transponders used by the Beeb - and this would send Murdoch up sh*t creek by the ITC!

What will probably happen now is that there will probably be a keen market in the Irish Republic, and also one of sorts in the UK, for cheap Free to Air receivers. If, from looking through all the press releases today, that ITV and Channel 5 follows suit an effective Digital Satellite Freeview equivalent service could develop, except that interested channels would deal with Astra or Eutelsat directly rather than Crown Castle for DTT Freeview. Even still there are plently of FTA channels available (even if most of them deal with shopping) including Sky News, CNN, Chartshow TV, Reality TV, Boomerang etc. The costs for broadcasting on DST are lower than DTT.

We'll probably end up seeing promoted "BBC Receivers" with 60cm dish etc retail with an enthuasim for dual systems. FTA receivers themselves already retail for around £100 at it's cheapest level in UK stores.

The big losers for this announcement will be Sky (BBC 1 & 2 are a big selling point for it's service in the Republic), NTL and Chrous. And it will get even worse if ITV decide to pull it's encryption deal off hook. After all that's it's selling points. Also viewers in mainland Europe will suffer. While those in Benelux, Northern France & Iceland will hardly be affected, those in Central & Eastern Europe and the southern reqaches of Spain will not be happy with this. However the search will perhaps be on to find "sensitive" free to air receivers - expect some of these queries to appear on Digital Spy!

Dare I say it, but the BBC going "on it's own" on Digital Satellite may mark the start of the end of Sky's monopoly on Digital Satellite on the UK & Ireland - another operator (e.g. Canal Plus) may decide it worthwhile to set up a platform on 28.2E using unused capacity at this postition (Astra 2C, in theroy has yet to settle in this postition despite it's use at 19.2E thanks to the Astra 1A balls up) with channels tempted to join it's package and use it's encryption away from the expensively overcharged Videoguard. It could turn the Digital Satellite platform in the UK and Ireland into an open platform from a virtually closed one at the minute.

Stuff like Scottish Football and Gaelic Games rights may need to be sorted, but if the BBC believes that paying for these rights is cheaper than encrypting in Videoguard, then this marks a great day for the Digital Satellite platform.

One point though about the current UK FTV card - it is not run soley by the BBC - Channel 4 and Channel 5 also are involved in it's running and all three parties were collectively responsible for awarding the service centre contract to BT.

Charles Slane

Originally posted by Richard

Even more worryingly, if there is nothing to be gained by the BBC being available on in the ROI EPG, will BBC ONE and TWO be removed? Of course there will still be "Other Channels"...

This is a very important point that Richard has raised. Why would Sky want to pay the Beeb for their two channels if they're available for free on Other Channels ?

And if Sky take BBC1 and 2 off the Irish EPG, will they reduce the Irish subscritpion price ? If not, how about they replace them with ITV, Channel 4 and Five ?

DMC

Is it time to release this? Yeah, ICDG, West Briton and rlogue know about this.

I sent this 13 months ago, at the height of the "Campaign" thread. To someone in BBC management. I wont say who.

....BBC News 24, BBC Choice, BBC Knowledge, (soon to be BBC 4) CBBC, Cbeebies, BBC Parliament and all other BBC Radio stations are not currently available on the Sky Digital EPG to subscribers in the Republic of Ireland. BBC 1 and BBC 2 are available, but that's all.

These channels are available at present to UK subscribers, but for years, Irish viewers have been able to watch BBC 1, BBC 2, and radio channels, through aerials from Northern Ireland and Wales, but also through our cable networks in the major towns and cities. Now, I know you may think that we don't pay for these services through the licence fee; if we get it off-air from transmitters, it is purely down to geography. But we do pay for the BBC through rights fees payments to our cable companies, if we receive it in that manner.
This is paid to BBC Worldwide, as I understand it.

What I am wondering is, why there is a difference between the UK and Irish subscriber?

I have been in contact with Sky, a fair few times in discussion about this, and they said that the BBC decided not to make their channels available to ROI Sky customers.

Are the BBC withholding their channels from Irish viewers? Will this position change?

Whenever I watch BBC News 24, and when I was staying in a friends house at New Year's, I was applauding James Helm's coverage of the launch of The Euro from Dublin. He caught the
Irish public's mood correctly, and reported it very accurately. I watched him cover the Minister of Finance's launch of the Euro on Grafton St. and I watched after midnight at Christchurch, right after the launch of the new currency. What I found myself saying was... If the BBC is covering Irish news like this, then why can't I watch it? This was also the case when the bodies of Turkish refugees were tragically found in a lorry container in Wexford around Christmas, covered very well by Shane Harrison. I like watching News 24 overnight on BBC 1, but I would love to watch it all the time.

My main point is, I have been an avid watcher and listener of all things BBC for many years, and now as the BBC is embracing the digital era, I feel that you may be neglecting some old friends.

If it is not too much to ask of you, could you find out for me is there any chance that these channels will become available to ROI viewers in the near future, and if not, what is the real reason that these channels being withheld from us?

If you could answer these questions for me, either positively or negatively, I would deeply appreciate it.

I got THIS reply.

.....there may be good news in that we recently took the decision not to encrypt News 24 in the UK, so that may be of benefit in Ireland. I can see little reason why we shouldn't make News 24 available and I'm pleased you like it. There may be a difference with the other channels because there are rights issues involved: some shows on BBC Choice or BBC4 probably have UK broadcast rights only, which may restrict our ability to show them more widely.

So this was planned THIRTEEN months ago. It wasn't until I was talking to West Briton about this earlier by phone, that I twigged that this was old news. That is old news to me and some friends!

byte

I must say this is VERY interesting. If all BBC channels were FTA and available via Add Channels, that would be handier than swapping viewing cards to watch BBC Three or something!

But, didn't ITV say that they'd have all their regions FTA also before the organised a deal with Sky? Maybe BBC are doing the same to try getting Sky to lower their CAS charges.

As for Chorus and NTL getting in a fluster, who the hell cares? :rolleyes: If they don't want to continue paying for carriage of BBC channels, then they'll have to stop carrying the channels on their services, which wouldnt' be a good idea either!

As mentioned by someone already, if BBC went FTA, Sky could stop paying for BBC1 and 2 to be carried in ROI, and instead spend the money on carriage of the other 3 UK terrestrial broadcasters!!

At the end of the day, infacta, I reckon Sky will come to some kind of arrangement with BBC before May 30, though I sure hope not!

byte

On a side note, it's amazing how much interest there has been on this subject. 3 pages of replies in less than 12 hours!

EDIT: And this post brings us to the fourth page!!

Shows how much interest there is with the BBC channels!