BBC goes FTA: 10th July

Icehouse

Originally posted by carrolls
I do wish that when the Beeb give briefings on this subject
they would at least get the technical details correct.
Like BBC do broadcast to Ireland. But on different slots on the EPG.
If BBC use the same argument when the case comes up, all BSkyB need to do is to is counter argue that BBC do broadcast in the Republic, and Sky have won.
I think the Beeb should (at the very least) get their technical details correct before they argue their legal case.

Don't let the buggers get you down, Carroll's. I reckon the Beeb will be able to argue very forcefully a very good technical case when they're on front of the ITC or a court judge. They have probably been misquoted by non-techie journos, or maybe a spokesperson who wasn't very filled in with the facts was talking off the cuff. The fact is that although BBC have been available in Ireland for years, the satellite (FTV) service which they have IS aimed exlusively at the UK, which might lead some people to be confused.

robert muldoon

Will BBC 1 & BBC 2 still remain on 214 and 215 on the Irish EPG when BBC goes FTA?, or will we have to wait while BSkyB and BBC sort uot their differences. because at this stage I am getting quite confused on this whole issue

JDxtra

Q. How do I avoid confusion on this issue?

A. Don't think about it! Just sit back, relax, and all will become clear on June 1st.

:cool: :cool: :cool:

robert muldoon

Originally posted by jdempsey
Q. How do I avoid confusion on this issue?

A. Don't think about it! Just sit back, relax, and all will become clear on June 1st.

:cool: :cool: :cool:

That answer was a big help!

DMC

I'll unconfuse you Robert....

We don't know!!

Now, I have forgotten about the issue until the next time it crops up. :cool: :cool:

watty

Originally posted by georgekildare
Is there a way of challenging the legal right for SkyB to control the design of digiboxes within the UK or Ireland under existing monopoly laws? What is clearly needed is a satellite receiver/digibox with a much more flexible favorites menu and the ability to assign any specified encoded or FTA program to any desired channel number.

Technically almost all the irratating stuff about digbox can be fixed by a automatic by Satellite SW update.

Technically Sky might be in breach of EU laws, but unless someone has more money than Sky has for their lawyers....

CAM / Other cards (i.e. Viacesss): A slot at the back could take a CAM, if enabled (behind a blank plate).

User control: PIN to disable unwanted channels

"Other Channels": More than current 20, more SR than 22,000 and 27,500 certainly possible. Access to 100 other channels/ Favorites by two digits (SW timer detects if you type 2 or 3 digits).

Diseqc Control: 4 Channel LNB switch and / or Positioner is just SW. It uses the existing 22KHz tone.

EPG without the channels you don't get filter option.

Disable Interactive Logo on/off option.

Marketing issue:
Licence videoguard CAM for non-Digiboxes (i.e. PC cards, Humax, Digital TVs etc)

watty

It is VERY unlikely that 214 and 215 (the only two BBC on ROI EPG) will be affected.
What is unknown is what EPG numbers ALL the BBC (About 15 TV and 12 Radio?) will have on the following:
UK Sub card
UK FTV card
Power up box with blank/upsidedown Card (FTA EPG only list, mostly no pay channels even listed)

As is the case with BBC Parliament TV and R1, R2, R3, R4, R4LW, 1Extra, R.7, R.6, R.Ulster, R.Asian, R.Scot and R.Wales AT THE MOMENT ON an ROI card, ALL the BBC will work via "other channels".

Only BBC1NI, BBC2NI and BBC World Service will be on ROI card EPG. All will work via "other channels".

If you power on your box with ROI card upside down, then it is likely the EPG will have all the Free (not FTV Card) to Air Channels. This may or may not include BBC channels. The existing FTA BBC Radio have been removed from this EPG.

The EPG ought to have all the BBC on "No Card" FTA EPG, as part of the point of the exercise is to make easier access, no having to phone for a FTV card.

No-one knows exactly what EPG numbers on NON-ROI epg will be in use:

Why:
At the minute there is only one out of 4 BBC 1s listed at 101 or available to any viewer. All the existing 4 BBC1s and the missing English Regions not yet on satellite will be available to anyone.
Selection of BBC1 may be by an as yet non-existant menu (certainly not on ROI card), which ought to exist with no card.

If there is no new menu, then 101 is likely to BBC1 London and 102 BBC2 England (There are only 4 BBC2s).

It is likely that BBC3, BBC4, Cbeebies, CBBC, News24, BBC Parliament and all the BBC Radio will stay at existing UK EPG numbers.

The 960, 961, 962 is likely to be still the other 3 BBC2, no matter if menu for region is added or not.


If there is no region menu then all the other BBC1s (than London) could be at any EPG as most of these are not yet even on Satellite and of the four BBC1 on Satellite now, only one has an EPG.

The arguement with Sky is likely mostly over this "region menu" idea (since there is no card to say which region to be) and if the unselected BBC1s get any sensible EPG number (which is more important if Sky drag heels on adding a new menu).

robert muldoon

Thanks Watty, that WAS helpful

jimbob

I'd say the BBC will sign a new agreement with Sky, just at a much lower price than they are paying at the moment. They just wanted to see skys reaction.
Just wait and see, nothing will change.
BBC access will be conditional. Sky need them too much and they wont want to lose them. Sky will reduce they're annual fee to one BBC couldn't refuse.
Nothing will change and we'll all be battling for the rest of the bbc channels in two months time again.

SRB

Doubt it Jimbob - that would open the floodgates for all other Sky customers to demand the same rates - ITV being a case in point.
I agree with Watty - nothing will change on the ROI card, and the other channels will be there if you want to add them on the other channels section.

Krusty_Clown

SRB: that would open the floodgates for all other Sky customers to demand the same rates

Not necessarily.. I would imagine that the Beeb carries a little more weight than the likes of ITV... i.e. they are more likely to be successful in finding an alternative mechanism to broadcast to satellite customers..

Additionally, I can live without having ITV (evinced by the fact that I'm still a Sky customer). However, if I lost BBC1/BBC2 (i.e. they were not available to me anymore on my Sky Digibox, by any means), I would rip it out, and find an alternative means of getitng my Beeb goodness, e.g. FTA box, NTL, Chorus...

SRB

Not necessarily.. I would imagine that the Beeb carries a little more weight than the likes of ITV... i.e. they are more likely to be successful in finding an alternative mechanism to broadcast to satellite customers..

---

eh, that is exactly what they've done - they've said they're breaking away from the sky package.
My point is that if sky now back down and in an attempt to make them stay, they give them a "special deal", other companies will want the same.....

watty

Originally the 2D "British Isles" beam did not exist. So at the beginning of Digital the BBC had to use Conditional Access.
(Yes I know that in reality you can pick up 2D outside UK & Ireland, but "Rights" is about perception).

According to Greg Dykes they never wanted Conditional Access.

Even if Conditional Access was free, the BBC would do without it if they could as it "runs against the grain" and they see it as a thin end of wedge to Government Control / 100% subscription TV.

Especially now as DTT is Freeview. They see someone having even to apply for a Free FTV card as barrier to satellite viewing.

Even in UK too many people perceive Satellite as a pay only medium like a "Wireless Cable".

Ironically one of the reasons RTE and Gov. here was enthusiastic about Irish DTT *WAS* conditional access... After analog Shut off, no TV licence payment and the signal from the transmitter switches off your receiver. (You don't even need a card, the TV Licence dept just needs your receiver unique serial number...). Think of all that extra TV Licence revenue. Maybe over 30% of Irish viewers are Stealing from the rest of us by not having a TV licence or no licence at Holiday Cottage / Student apartment. Still, I'm against anything that smacks of "Big Brother / Orwell 1984 / Huxley Brave New World"

Thankfully the BBC is not run with same attitude! AFAIK neither the Sky Digibox nor the Freeview box itself can be disabled this way, only viewing cards.

Satellite is NOT "wireless Cable TV". Every Satellite viewer owns the box, LNB and dish and can view any satellite or any non-encrypted TV / Radio channel without card or subscription. Satellite does not even in UK / Ireland mean "Sky/BSkyB/NDS". You don't even need a Sky Digibox. The BBC as part of its "open to all" and "Universal access" philosphy since 1922 in UK, wants to get this message across.

I will be extremely surprised if this is a negotiating ploy or BBC is ever "Conditional Access" again in UK.

We should see test cards or actual BBC on 2D transponders that have been inactive to date soon, I will scan them with PC periodically, as they will check it out before the public change-over on 1st June.

DMC

Good-ish news from the ITC...

ITC lends support to BBC in satellite row

http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,928736,00.html

Owen Gibson
Thursday April 3, 2003




The TV watchdog has indicated it will side with the BBC in its ongoing row with BSkyB over whether the satellite broadcaster has the right to relegate BBC1 and BBC2 to the bottom of its list of channels.

The BBC is preparing an official complaint to the independent television commission about Sky's threat to remove the BBC's channels from their current position as the first channels satellite viewers see when they switch on their TV sets.

However, ahead of any possible inquiry, the ITC appears to have already decided the wording of its regulations guarantees the BBC the top slots.

In a letter to trade magazine Broadcast, Robin Foster, the director of strategy, economics and finance at the ITC, came down strongly on the side of the BBC.

"The priority for the ITC is to ensure viewers are able to gain easy access in the UK to available services and it is their interests which are paramount.

"It is our belief that viewers have now come to expect to find BBC1 and BBC2 at channels 101 and 102 on the EPG [electronic programme guide]," he said.

The row began over the BBC's decision last month to withdraw from BSkyB's encryption service and broadcast its channels "in the clear" from its own satellite.

Talks between the two parties on the issue broke down last week, with the BBC claiming BSkyB was using the threat of demotion as a negotiating tactic to force it pay more for its listing.

The BBC claims BSkyB is threatening to demote BBC1 and BBC2, possibly down to 52 and 53 on the EPG, but BSkyB is adamant it cannot allow the corporation to broadcast unencrypted and preserve the first and second slots because they are already taken by RTE in Ireland.

The ITC's backing of the BBC will be a blow for BSkyB, which insisted the BBC had no right to the slots according to the letter of the current regulations, which guarantee public service channels "due prominence".

An ITC spokesman sought to distance the regulator from Mr Foster's letter, saying no official complaint had yet been received from the BBC and the letter was written two weeks ago.

"If a complaint is made to us from the BBC a full impartial inquiry will be carried out, looking into all the details of the case," he added.

DMC

Originally posted by watty
We should see test cards or actual BBC on 2D transponders that have been inactive to date soon, I will scan them with PC periodically, as they will check it out before the public change-over on 1st June.

Indeed, even on Lyngsat, we should be seeing in the next couple of weeks a few transponders waking up.

Could we get "BBC Test Card J 24" for a few weeks

Icehouse

http://www.onbusiness.ie/2003/0404/digital.html

Who knows...

Sin e an Fear

Originally the 2D "British Isles" beam did not exist. So at the beginning of Digital the BBC had to use Conditional Access.
(Yes I know that in reality you can pick up 2D outside UK & Ireland, but "Rights" is about perception).

That's "reception" not perception. Speaking to folks in Gibraltar today, they were worried about losing BBC, ITV, but with 1.8m+ dishes they shouldn't be.

Funny how the German channels ARD and ZDF got threatened with action over the World Cup being on FTA satellite, as EVERYTHING on German TV is dubbed, unlike Dutch and Scandinavian channels.

Perhaps people on the Costa del Sol will take a leaf out of the Irish deflectors' book, heh, heh!

watty

from above link

Speaking at the opening of the Celtic Film and Television Festival in Belfast, the Minister said he still planned to promote such a service despite a BBC decision to provide free satellite services in Britain from May.

'An all-island service based on the existing UK freeview model or on a new satellite platform offer the synergies we need,' he said.

Minister Ahern said his officials were still considering the roll-out of an all-island digital terrestrial service, which would carry RTE, TV3 and TG4 into the North, but conceded that the BBC decision could mean a review of these plans.

He is just repeating what he said before with variations. Obviosly he still has not been briefed or didn't listen.

This is not reality with "secret details" RTE contract with Sky lasting to at least 2008..

An all Ireland DTT is not feasible unless they Nationalise or use the Digital MMDS transmitters. No-one (least of all RTE and ROI Gov will pay for an ROI UHF DTT). NI DTT can't accomodate four Irish channels (though obviously they could be made part of Sky Family Pack in NI.. that is hardly freeview).

I await any "real" belivable annoucement even about getting Irish TV (in ROI never mind NI) on Terrestrial or Satellite digital before 2010 (Optomistic?) with skepicizim.

The BBC decision is irrelevent (to Digital Irish TV availability in ROI or NI), except to expose RTE and Gov. here of signing up for a very short-sighted deal with Sky and totally mishandling Satellite and DTT plans over the last 10 years.

carrolls

Of course the BBC decision going to affect the success of Irish DTT. How can it not?
There is no way BBC 3 & 4, News 24, CBBC and all of the Beeb radio stations are going to be available on Irish DTT.
Your discerning Irish customer is going to weigh up the benefits of both systems, and see what gives the best quality and choice for their money.

SRB

Watty,
Is there not another channel ear marked for the RTE services from Divis on DTT. It's not in use, but it is intended for that purpose.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.rte.ie/about/europrojects/ - look under project details

The nice thing about this way of doing interactive DTT is that the return channel uses the same antenna you are using to get the signal !

"Physical Layer
The physical layer proposed for the DVB-RCT system must allow for many simultaneous users to the return channel. The maximum user return power is also limited to 1 Watt. To achieve the DVB requirements the physical channel must be partitioned in both the time and frequency domain. Hence the interactive set top boxes must be both time and frequency locked when accessing the return channel. This requirement actually simplifies the network terminal (base station) receiver as all of the users return channel interactions can be demodulated using an FFT process (Fast Fourier Transform) similar to a DVB-T receiver"

The only catch is that nothing has been heard since....
"WITNESS News Update
Friday, 29th September 2000
European Commission confirm that WITNESS official project kick-off will be October 1st 2000. All partners informed. "

=============================================
Communications Minister Dermot Ahern says he intends to go ahead with plans for an all-island television service, through digital or satellite.
DTT - no point in rolling that out quite yet is there - save it as an election promise. - And I can't see them subsidising RTE on FTA, maybe NI SKY subscribers will have the option for RTE ? (note to self - stop being so cynical)

Of course the BBC decision going to affect the success of Irish DTT
As I've pointed out before 30% of UTV advertising revenue comes from this side of the boarder even though they don't transmit in this country. We really do like our UK channels and I don't know how NTL will compete with BBC FTA

watty

Originally posted by SRB
Watty,
Is there not another channel ear marked for the RTE services from Divis on DTT.

There certinally can't be space for four irish channels on DTT. One I wouldn't be dogmatic about, but given lack of mux BW I'd be sceptical

watty

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
[The nice thing about this way of doing interactive DTT is that the return channel uses the same antenna you are using to get the signal !

<SNIP>
The only catch is that nothing has been heard since....
<snip>Of course the BBC decision going to affect the success of Irish DTT

Some folks got carried away thinking it would be like 24/7 broadband to internet. If you do sums it isn't. Maybe 1200 baud depending how may people are "interacting". Fine for a text message, "the red button", order pizza or film. But not Broadband Internet

Yes BBC FTA affects Irish DTT. It makes it even less likely.
The original idea was 3 groups of channels:
About 12 free Irish ones (i.e. 8 that don't exist yet) (two Mux, one RTE and one TV3/TG4 shared)
The 5 UK TV on a subscription (one mux)
The other MUxes for Pay TV and one for PPV (Compete with Sky/Chorus/NTL).

DTT didn't pay in UK. Here it would have worked, 5 years ago (when it could have started), simple because of the UK TV pay mux. The Chorus/NTL etc only existed originally because of BBC/UTV demand NOT for multichannel TV ala Sky or Digital Cable/MMDS

Sky has such a penetration now, and Digital upgrade of Chorus MMDS and Chorus /NTL cable to extent that a Pay DTT isn't possible. Free BBC on Sat is final nail in coffin.

Who would fund a UHF DTT network?

The only remotely possible DTT at present here is RTE, Government or another to fund total conversion to MMDS to Digital (Possible in less than 2 months), turn off Analog MMDS and have 120 Channel Digital MMDS.
Then Government, RTE or another rent 30 channels of the 120 as "freeview". That still leaves Chorus /NTL 90channels, 50% more than they have now, and a viable number to compete with Sky.

Or (shock horror) Nationalise the MMDS....

Of course NTL Ireland / Chorus could fold any time and Digital MMDS would be available for a song... after all that is how UK freeview got of ground.. ITV Digital collapse

Capt'n Midnight

Some folks got carried away thinking it would be like 24/7 broadband to internet.
Oh! if only - but at least you wouldn't have to pay 25p every time you used the "interactive" red button like you have to do with SKY.

Nationalise MMDS - not much chance of that even though most carriers would jump at the chance of dumping MMDS..
Maybe if we organised a whip around we could bribe a politician do it ?

(many people have the reputation for being honest, when in reality their price is too high)

watty

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
you wouldn't have to pay 25p every time you used the "interactive" red button like

As soon as past 1st year unplug the phone... I got mine pre ROI interactive (the day the £45 offer down from £300 started), so it never had a phone line.
(Except twice for Box office order. Second time we couldn't watch the movie as the Salora TV choked on the Macrovision. We save and buy DVDs instead and the Salora is now #2 set in kitchen)

carrolls

Another angle on the BBC story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/2929335.stm

Note this quote from the article

It has been reported that Sky wants to replace BBC One and BBC Two with Irish channels RTE One and Network Two.

robert muldoon

Originally posted by carrolls
Another angle on the BBC story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/2929335.stm

Note this quote from the article

Surely the whole rights issue comes into question here as in UTV not allowed to broadcast on Sky in ROI. So how could Irish TV be broadcast on the UK EPG?

byte

Hmm, that paragraph you mentioned carrolls doesnt' seem to be listed on that story now. Maybe they were forced to edit the story?

carrolls

Originally posted by BBC
Last Updated: Tuesday, 8 April, 2003, 17:46 GMT 18:46 UK

This morning there was a whole extra paragraph on the Irish angle to the saga.
Obviously it was total bulls**t and was sensibly taken off.
Or maybe the legal department of BSkyB read it and called foul.
I mean RTE 1 and Network 2 on 101 amd 102 on the UK EPG.
Yeah right.

SRB

There certinally can't be space for four irish channels on DTT. One I wouldn't be dogmatic about, but given lack of mux BW I'd be sceptical

==============================================

I don't mean on the existing muxes - I'm sure I read somewhere an extra UHF frequency had been set aside for use in NI to carry an "Irish Mux", with RTE 1, Net 2, the radio channels and TG4.