How do you feel about T-Girls?

LegacyUser

No one has a duty to fancy you. You are only aboot 19 from what I can work out.

Are you in counselling. You need counselling. If you decide to go ahead you will need counselling; if you don't you will need counselling.

You also don't seem very mature even for a 19 year old, you have to talk to someone. Go up to Dublin some weekend and go into Outhouse. Ring ahead and ask for Louise Tierney; she is the head of it and will be able to help you.

That said I don't think the gays have been very helpful. You people are supposed to be Gay Lesbian Bisexual and Transgendered LGBT so don't be cruel!


Also Lydia Foy is in the high court on the 8th looking to change her birth cert to girl what do you think of that.

swiss

I've had a look through this thread, and it does seem to be going around in circles.

For a start, I think I'm beginning to understand where Rozie is coming from. She contends that a transexual who thinks like a woman, acts like a woman, has the same hormones as a woman and after an operation has an imitation of female sexual reproductive organs is effectively a woman.

The issue is that such women were born men. Note that I use the term women loosely, not as an attempt to offend, but to acknowledge that there is a distinction between transgendered females and females who were born as females.

So where is this arbitrary line that one can say exists between what is considered feminine and masculine? One can say it's to do with brain chemistry, with hormones, with reproductive organs etc. Taking the last example (because it's the most obvious) I would say that in the case of transexuals, having imitation sexual organs does not mean that the person is that sex.

If at some point in the future medical science advances to the stage that real female organs such as a vagina and possibly a uterus or even womb can be grafted onto a male to female transexual then this distinction becomes even more blurred.

So the issue is with perception, as a lot of people identified. Rozie definitely identifies as female, and seems offended by the notion that anybody could identify her as anything but female. She puts this down to lack of education or as a desire to offend her.

Personally, I don't think it's either. I fully admit that I'm not completely au fait with transgendered issues, just as I am not as familiar as I could be with other psychological or biological issues. This however does not mean that I'm uneducated or need to have my opinions or perceptions changed. As I alluded earlier, I do see a dictinction between transgendered people of a particular sex and people who were born that sex. What that distinction is exactly, I'm unsure.

What isn't helping however, is this victimisation and persecution complex Rozie seems to have towards anyone who doesn't share her viewpoint that she is female and who confess to having reservations with going out with someone who was transgendered. To be honest, I would probably have reservations as well (in the case of F to M of course), although unless I was put in that situation I don't know how I would react.

This "woe is me" attitude is contributing more than any other factor towards some of the harsher comments you have received. Yes Rozie, you are in an unenviable situation but so are many other people who - dare I say it - are in a far worse situation than you. Assuming that nobody will go out with you because you are TG is also self destructive. Speak to a counsellor.

PhantomBeaker

swiss wrote:

So where is this arbitrary line that one can say exists between what is considered feminine and masculine? One can say it's to do with brain chemistry, with hormones, with reproductive organs etc.

That is where Gender Studies and Queer Theory start to have fun.

Here are some issues that are worth chewing over, and that the above studies generally debate.

The questions of whether it's brain chemistry or the likes can get really complicated. Brain chemistry can be affected by any number of things, such as hormones. From personal experience, taking cross-sex hormones seems to activate areas of the brain that aren't as active otherwise. One good example would be emotions: being on them leads to a much richer experience of emotions.

So if the brain chemistry is changable, is brain chemistry a good candidate for deciding that line?

What about brain structure? Given that the structure sets itself early in life, it's not as much of a changable thing, so maybe it's a good candidate. However, certain papers (mainly headed by Gooren et al, if I remember correctly) seem to be gathering evidence for the hypothesis that the brain structure is closer to that of the target sex than their birth sex - currently they've worked on a particular part of the brain where the density of neurons there is much greater in females than males (and I mean in the order of 100 - roughly 100 times more neurons in a female brain than male - but this again is off the top of my head, but it's a good ballpark figure. The main point is that the amount of neurons found in this area differs MASSIVELY (statisticians would call it significant) depending on your sex - and TS folk seem to have amounts corresponding to the sex they're transitioning to). If you go by brain structure as a marker of sex/gender, then technically it wouldn't be different.

Another fairly solid (no pun intended) marker might be genetalia - however, the Money tradegy would undermine that one. For those that don't know, Money was (and probably still is) a surgeon with a big interest in sex and gender, and was of the opinion that gender was learnt socially, and wasn't in any way physically based. One time, male twins were born and were circumcised. However on one of them, the circumcision was rather incredibly botched. So Money said that that the best option was to invert the penis into a neo-vagina, and raise the kid as a girl, giving them hormones to induce a female puberty etc. The initial results seemed promising. Although in the teens his male gender was expressed, and then finally found out why. He changed his name to Bruce (from what I remember) and lived essentially as a Female To Male Transsexual would - except his clitoris didn't grow on testosterone, obviously. He committed suicide one or two years ago. I remember posting the article to the GCN forums anyway, so not more than 2 years ago.

So that study pretty much shows that genitals aren't quite the marker, and definately shows that Money's hypothesis that gender was socially learnt is faulty. Apparently the fact that it took a human life to prove that was irrelavent.

So trying to draw that arbitrary line becomes increasingly difficult...

All of that means sweet eff all to the TS person though. If I abstract my mind from my body, there's something that tells me that I'm female, or at least more female than male. As a result, paying attention to my body is a jarring experience at best... at least when I'm not on hormones (on hormones, it works a lot better... difficult to explain unless you've been there). So when a trans person finds it insulting to be called something that they don't perceive themselves as being, it's because there's something essential INSIDE them that says that they're male/female/other/hyper-intelligent-shade-of-blue.

To say that there isn't a difference is silly. There is. They're born one way, and change at some point in life. However to attribute them with their birth sex is probably also as silly, as there's also a difference between them and their birth sex...

And to think that this reply was going to be a one-liner :rolleyes:

Aoife

Maguined

Mountainy Man x wrote:

That said I don't think the gays have been very helpful. You people are supposed to be Gay Lesbian Bisexual and Transgendered LGBT so don't be cruel!

Just because someone is gay and posts on this forum does not mean they have to have a positive opinion on Transgendered people. They are people and so are entitles to whatever opinion they want in the world.

That said i fail to see how anyone has been really unhelpfull ? most people have offered sincere advice, just because Rozie does not agree with lots of the advice does not make that advice cruel or negative.

Some peoples opinions have annoyed and uppset Rozie but again this is a public forum and people are entitled to voice their opinion as long as it is not obviously falming someone.

Rozie

Well, it might resemble a pretty misproportioned female body, but it wouldn't be one. Just like the fact that while a kit-car Porsche may resemble a Porsche, it will never be a Porsche.

...what? That doesn't even make a sense. No "In the same ways". I want an actual logical, fair reason why a post OP transsexual is worlds apart from a natural woman.

Even were I to be attracted to a t-girl (and I don't rule out the possibility, in the same manner as I don't rule out the possibility of meeting a guy I'd be attracted to, merely consider it highly unlikely), I wouldn't pursue it as a t-girl could never offer me what I want out of life: to be a father and raise my child with his/her mother.

So you'd never go out with a sterile woman? Not forgetting that medical technology isn't static, and what's so wrong with adoption?

How could you consider yourself to be a "real girl" because you've had parts of your male body surgically altered and
taken drugs to remove some of your male attributes?

I fail to see how it's any different from any other deformation at birth.

Since I'm not a shallow human being, coupled with the fact that much of gender happens in the brain, it's not terribly
difficult to look past birth defects and see who's inside.

By the logic you're trying to argue Dennis Smith is a cat because he's surgically altered his body to look like one:

No he hasn't, he looks like a cat-man, who is way more over on the man side than the cat side. And I'm deeply insulted that
you think of transsexuals in that manner, that we look no more like real women than he looks like a cat.

You can be a trans-sexual and have a very happy life as one (and I honestly hope you do have a happy life) but I think it's important for you to realise that this is what you will be. Life isn't a Disney cartoon where a fairy-godmother can wave a magic wand and make you a "real girl". You need to accept this before even thinking about surgery.

This is only your opinion, and not the one of the best minds on the matter. Why are you talking down to me about it as if it was fact?

So, if a woman has her ovaries removed she's still a woman but if a man has his penis removed he's no longer a man? It either works one way or the other. I'm of the belief that we are what we are and that we should learn to live with that.

Well, to be fair, it's pretty convenient for you as you're not a trans.

Of course, whenver I say that, people kick up a storm, because quite frankly, they know they're beat.

Because the people who know a lot about gender issues are those with gender issues perhaps?

So we're the only ones that give a **** about us? Watch what you're saying.

I consider biology to be a pretty solid foundation for beliefs.

Yet you seem to dismiss most recent findings, such as this: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/5/2034

I know you'll dispute it. I know that if some kind of cosmic genius came down from the sky and told you otherwise, you'd still disagree.
That bothers me. Though at the end of the day, people should be able to decide such movable concepts for themselves, and others should respect that instead of fabricating theories that are really just masks for "Why we shouldn't respect them."

Of course it's fair for you to be allowed criticise someone else's beliefs.

Well, to be fair, my gender is a rather large foundation for who I am, and for you it's just a mere "Opinion". Your kind often forgets and dodges that.

You should, however, consider them.

I'm sorry, but why should you know who I am better than me? I'm genuinely asking.

I don't believe that anyone has posted in this thread out of a desire to anything other than help you.

Really? Have you actually READ the thread? Some of the things that were said were nothing more than deeply insulting. Some comments would out of ignorance, true,
but some comments like those than have come from people like Hmm Messiah are extremely unnecessary(Though in that case it's a ridiculous farce of a do-gooder
trip against the way I'm doing things rather than being transphobic).

It would be a pretty sad person who would take the time to write a reply to this purely to hurt someone who's obviously already going through an awful lot.

Interestingly, the internet is full of these sad people.

You do, however, come across as being whiny and ungrateful when you lash out at those that are taking the time to offer you advise and considered opinions.

I lash out if I see something as insulting, which most of this thread has been. I'm sorry, but just because someone offers supposed "advice" doesn't mean I have to be appreciative if they're also saying things that I find deeply patronising and/or insulting.

Johnnymcg wrote:

I merely pointed out that because you found a human interest story that that story does not always reflect reality

Why the hell not? It's an actual real life example instead of the presumptions and conjecture that both sides(well, I'm a one person side) have made all over the place.
It's a heck of a lot more than defying common logic by saying that almost nobody stays away from a frowned upon minority for reasons other than purely fair and justifiable ones that have absolutely nothing to do with prejudice.

again you jump to conclusions - you are confusing attraction with some desire to leave T people in the gutter

If we're not with the LGB crowd, who the hell are we going to be with? It's LGBT, but that doesn't mean that several people
have made statements to the contrary of this supposed "Inclusion", Rev Hellfire being a fantastically arrogant example.

what phantom breaker said was not ignored?

Well, there was a bit on respect that most of you seemed to miss.

The Wonderful, the Marvellous, and the unfortunately unknowledgable Rev Hellfire wrote:

When I sit back think about it I cannt see any reason why the T should be added. Surely the common thread in GLB is the same sex relationship? Inclulding the T makes no sense.

No, the common thread is that they're alternate sexualities and "mess" with preconcieved notions of gender.

If you can't accept that, then quite frankly, you can feck off.

So I still stand by my previous point, that unless you are looking for a same sex relationship that this is the wrong forum,

Again, more exclusionist behaviour.

and up until the previous post the implied orientation was assuming you are counted as female post-op female-male.

???

Mountainy Man wrote:

No one has a duty to fancy you. You are only aboot 19 from what I can work out.

Once again, missing the point entirely. My point isn't that people ahve a duty tro fancy me, but since I'm part of a hated minority that messed with people's heads, some people who would otherwise be attracted to me will not be for this reason. This is a completely logical notion and it baffles me how people can't grasp this.

Phantombreaker wrote:

So that study pretty much shows that genitals aren't quite the marker, and definately shows that Money's hypothesis that gender was socially learnt is faulty. Apparently the fact that it took a human life to prove that was irrelavent.

Saw a documentry on that, and it disgustsed me. Sometimes science folk can be just as zealous as the worst neo-con/fundies in what they believe.

damien

I'm turning this into a drinking game. God I'll be hammered soon.

Maguined

The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

Rozie your article does not prove that Transgendered people are closer to being the gender they want than the gender they were born. Do you believe that a man who has a neuron count in the female range is any less a man then ? I am also suprised you are not offended by the term "gender identity disorder" ? This article only explains a theory on why you think you are more female than male, it does not actually say that makes you more female than male.

[/QUOTE]I want an actual logical, fair reason why a post OP transsexual is worlds apart from a natural woman.[/QUOTE]

you cannot have children. lots of people do not like adoption and want a child of their own flesh and blood. people have been dumped by partners because they are not capable of producing a child.

some people will just not view you as a woman at all, it is perfectly logical to their point of view and wether its fair or not is individual opinion, to you there is probably no difference between a natural woman and a post-op one so there is no far reason.

To some people your gender will be decided by your genes alone and not on looks or beliefs at all, just because you yourself believe you are a woman and might get surgery to make it look so does not make it true in their opinion. That cat man example springs to mind, he wants to be a cat and deeply believes he is a cat. do you believe he is a cat ? now you can say he doesnt look enough like a cat but is looks everything ? there are people out there who look like the other gender, just because they look it makes them that other gender ?

Rozie

you cannot have children. lots of people do not like adoption and want a child of their own flesh and blood. people have been dumped by partners because they are not capable of producing a child.

This is the 10000th time I've said this, but do women who can't have kids not count as women then? You said they get dumped, but you seemed to forget half way that you were in fact saying why I'm not a real woman rather than why I won't get a date.

some people will just not view you as a woman at all, it is perfectly logical to their point of view and wether its fair or not is individual opinion,

I don't think you get what logic is. It has to be backed up by some level of reasoning to be logical. They're entitled to their opinions, of course. But that doesn't instantly make it "Logical".

To some people your gender will be decided by your genes alone and not on looks or beliefs at all, just because you yourself believe you are a woman and might get surgery to make it look so does not make it true in their opinion.

But they have little to no reason for having that opinion other than it being commonly held view, which irritates me.

And how do genes really matter? Most of the people who think that it's "Genes", ironically, really, really aren't sciencists.

That cat man example springs to mind, he wants to be a cat and deeply believes he is a cat. do you believe he is a cat ?

Actually, if you actually gave a **** about the cat man as a human being and not as an example to show how much of a freak I am, you'd find that he prides himself on being the perfect mix of cat and human, not being a pure cat.

There are so many reasons why using cat man as an example as transsexuals is incredibly insulting, I won't even get into it. Not that he's a freak or anything, just that to cast transsexuality in that light makes it look silly.

I believe I should respect him as whatever he wants to be respected as at the end of the day. I will recognise him as a cat-person, if that is truly how he wishes to be scene, and it remains within some kind of sane boundary(like, someone believing they were a half opened tin of tuna probably wouldn't be within a sane boundary).

now you can say he doesnt look enough like a cat but is looks everything ?

He doesn't look like cat. He looks like a cat man. Hence the name, Cat Man.

there are people out there who look like the other gender, just because they look it makes them that other gender ?

This isn't about looks. It's about what you identify as, and how your brain works. Did you even care to read the article that pretty much says that Male to Female transsexuals have brains structured like female ones?

Do you think Cat man has the brian of a cat? The more you get into it, the more it's ridiculous to compare. The fact that he doesn't identify as an actual feline is another point.

Rev Hellfire

Rozie wrote:

This is the 10000th time I've said this, but do women who can't have kids not count as women then?

Ofcourse they are, but they are genetically woman, you no matter what you do remain a man. You may pass pass as woman, but you are not gentically a woman merely a facsimile (this is ofcourse my opinion, but I suspect a common one). For some people this is enough, as has been been testified by Tranzz.
The difference between Tranzz and you is that Tranzz would appear very comfortable with their sexuality (although I dont believe its the correct term) and thus it would seem have none of the issues which you profess plague you.

Truly_You

.

Rozie

Ofcourse they are, but they are genetically woman, you no matter what you do remain a man. You may pass pass as woman, but you are not gentically a woman merely a facsimile (this is ofcourse my opinion, but I suspect a common one).

Again, this is your opinion, as you state, and has little to no scientific or logical base, so you have no right to force it as fact in the manner that some people have done and then accuse me of somehow infringing on people's right to believe as they wish.

And how does genetics really matter anyway, exactly? I hate repeating myself but this is the way you've made it go; do you go around with a microscope checking everyone's DNA? If not, how does it matter?

You seem to like the idea that someone can "Really" be a man, perhaps because it makes you more comfortable with your more primitive notions of gender and sexuality? If not, then why?

Why is it that genetics are the deciding factor, when modern science is moving towards the brain being the deciding organ of gender?

And where do you keep getting the idea that I'm not comfortable with my sexuality? I'm fine with it. It's other people that bother me. Just because I have a problem with the way other people view doesn't mean I have any qualms with what I am.

If anything, it's the opposite. Because I've accepted myself so readily I find it an annoyance that the only thing stopping me from being a true woman is how others treat me over it.

The most annoying thing about this is that nobody will give an definite, honest answer as to why they feel the way they feel.

With things like sexuality, it just "clicks". It doesn't work that way with "opinions". You don't enter a debate and say "You know, I kind of have a hunch that the ecomonic development of the country will be on a slippery slope in the next fiscal year unless we develop some kind of growth policy to counteract the entropy. But you know, it's just a hunch. Which means I'm right. For definite."

Maguined

Rozie wrote:

This is the 10000th time I've said this, but do women who can't have kids not count as women then? You said they get dumped, but you seemed to forget half way that you were in fact saying why I'm not a real woman rather than why I won't get a date.

again then i will reiterate someones point in how having your penis removed makes you any less of a man ? because you feel like you are a woman ? feelings and desires alone do not make something true.

Rozie wrote:

I don't think you get what logic is. It has to be backed up by some level of reasoning to be logical. They're entitled to their opinions, of course. But that doesn't instantly make it "Logical".

show me your logical reasoning that you are a female ? there is none, only that you "feel" that you are a woman, there is no logical fact or evidence to prove that you are a woman. there is plenty of logical evidence and reasoning that you are a man. so why is it fair that you get to ignore the logical reasoning of your gender but someone has to use logical reasoning to produce a reason to not want to date you ?

Rozie wrote:

But they have little to no reason for having that opinion other than it being commonly held view, which irritates me.

they have a feeling which is the exact same reason for your view on your gender.

Rozie wrote:

And how do genes really matter? Most of the people who think that it's "Genes", ironically, really, really aren't sciencists.

care to prove this at all ?

Rozie wrote:

Actually, if you actually gave a **** about the cat man as a human being and not as an example to show how much of a freak I am, you'd find that he prides himself on being the perfect mix of cat and human, not being a pure cat.

i care about him as a human being, but that does not mean i have to support his view that he is part cat at all nor does it make me ignorant for not viewing him as part cat. i do not consider you a freak, yes i do not view transgendered as the gender they want, i view them as the gender they were born. this in no way makes me see them as freaks or any less as human beings, i just have a different opinion then them.

Rozie wrote:

There are so many reasons why using cat man as an example as transsexuals is incredibly insulting, I won't even get into it. Not that he's a freak or anything, just that to cast transsexuality in that light makes it look silly.

why not ? do you view the cat mans desire to be part cat silly and so should not be compared to the serious issue of transexuality ? because to the cat man it is very serious indeed and he might be insulted by the comment you jut made.

Rozie wrote:

I believe I should respect him as whatever he wants to be respected as at the end of the day. I will recognise him as a cat-person, if that is truly how he wishes to be scene, and it remains within some kind of sane boundary(like, someone believing they were a half opened tin of tuna probably wouldn't be within a sane boundary).

I repsect people, just because i do not believe transexuals are the gender their wish does not mean i do not respect them. if someone does not call me sir i do not view it as a sign of disrespect.

Rozie wrote:

This isn't about looks. It's about what you identify as, and how your brain works. Did you even care to read the article that pretty much says that Male to Female transsexuals have brains structured like female ones?

Just because women tend to have lower neuron counts than men does not make it so that if a man has a neuron count in the range of a womans makes them a woman. I bet you there are plenty of men with neuron counts in the female scale that go about living their lives as men and never consider they are a woman at all.

You mentioned logical reasoning before yet you are not applying logic to this article, yes many t-girls had lower neuron counts does not mean lower neuron counts makes you a woman.

In other studies they found that homosexual women and men were more likely to be left handed than a straight man or woman, you cannot turn this around to suggest that being left handed makes you gay, that is not logical.

I will also point out that your article does not say having a lower neuron does not support the gender claim of t-girls but says it is a possible cause of the "gender identity disorder."

Rozie wrote:

Do you think Cat man has the brian of a cat? The more you get into it, the more it's ridiculous to compare. The fact that he doesn't identify as an actual feline is another point.

Again having a lower neuron count does not make you have the brain of a woman, it is not that simple, these are only general categories and levels.

Rev Hellfire

round and round we go at this stage.

Rozie

again then i will reiterate someones point in how having your penis removed makes you any less of a man ? because you feel like you are a woman ? feelings and desires alone do not make something true.

That's why there's tons of research done into transgendered issues. I suggest you read up on it.

show me your logical reasoning that you are a female ? there is none, only that you "feel" that you are a woman,

Actually, there's plenty.

http://www.transgender.org is a good resource. Wikipedia is also pretty damn decent. Pretty much any scientifically valid resource on transsexuality leans towards my definition of it.

they have a feeling which is the exact same reason for your view on your gender.

But how does that make even sense? I have a feeling that I am, because I am me, and in touch with myself. These people hardly know me, or any other transgenders for that matter. They "feel" that way doesn't work when there's nothing to feel.

care to prove this at all ?

It depends. Do you care to read anything I give you?

I suggest you read up on transsexuality and gender dysphoria, and the science behind it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality

Wikipedia, as usual, is a good start, but not the be all and end all by a long shot.


Here are two links if you have the Brain for them(pun intended):

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm
http://www.gires.org.uk/Text_Assets/maletofemale.pdf

There are indeed other studies too apart from that one. Since that study became widespread it's hard to find anything but that.

There have been plenty of rebuttals to this, but none have really made any effort in proving them wrong. There's been little to suggest, psychologically or physically, that transsexuality is a mere "choice", regardless. It's not something you can choose out of, it can't be cured by psychological means, so regardless of how accurate those tests are, there's still something in the brain that's wired to be male or female.

http://www.priory.com/sex.htm

If you scroll down to the bottom here, there's some more interesting points.

I don't get why the view that a transsexual is "Really a man" is a productive one, regardless. What does it achieve but bringing down a transsexual? They aren't going to change their view of themselves, however, views of other people do change more readily. It's really best to get along, and I don't believe modern culture, despite the almost forced optimism of some transgender people, gets along very well with us.

As long as the common view is that transsexuals are not real women, I don't think I'll ever be truly at rest.

i care about him as a human being, but that does not mean i have to support his view that he is part cat at all nor does it make me ignorant for not viewing him as part cat. i do not consider you a freak, yes i do not view transgendered as the gender they want, i view them as the gender they were born. this in no way makes me see them as freaks or any less as human beings, i just have a different opinion then them.

Yet you haven't really provided any decent base for why you think that.

why not ? do you view the cat mans desire to be part cat silly and so should not be compared to the serious issue of transexuality ? because to the cat man it is very serious indeed and he might be insulted by the comment you jut made.

Are you honestly reading anything I'm saying or just picking the bits you can turn around and make look like I have some major holes in my argument that simply aren't there?

I said I would respect him very much and SPECIFICALLY said it wasn't that he was in any way ridiculous, simply that it is not comparable to transexuality, and comparing transsexuality to the common view of how someone would see a cat person is indeed deeply insulting.

Trans-species is nowhere near transgender. There hasn't been research put into it, there isn't specific treatment and psychologists available for "Trans-species" people.

If you're going to keep in this argument, I honestly suggest you READ something about transsexuality first.

I repsect people, just because i do not believe transexuals are the gender their wish does not mean i do not respect them. if someone does not call me sir i do not view it as a sign of disrespect.

Well, it depends. Would you call me a he or a she in person? Perhaps if you game some solid reason for your beliefs, I could put it down to something other than sex. "Birth sex" doesn't really hold very well, nor does the notion that an "artificial" vagina is really that different from a "Natural" one.

Just because women tend to have lower neuron counts than men does not make it so that if a man has a neuron count in the range of a womans makes them a woman. I bet you there are plenty of men with neuron counts in the female scale that go about living their lives as men and never consider they are a woman at all.

Unfortunately you have no proof of that. And there are indeed some transsexuals who never transition. Unfortunately, quite a few end up going nuts and offing themselves.
Gender Dysphoria isn't a binary thing either, how much you can bear being in the wrong body differs from person to person.

You mentioned logical reasoning before yet you are not applying logic to this article, yes many t-girls had lower neuron counts does not mean lower neuron counts makes you a woman.

Apparently microscopic pieces of information in your cell that are very often redundant when you're fully grown do.

The brain profile, psychologically, and often physically, of a transsexual matches that of a natural woman. It depends on how shallow you are, and whether you accept brain or body as the true person.

And if you believe there's nothing to gender but sex, you're kidding yourself, I mean seriously.

In other studies they found that homosexual women and men were more likely to be left handed than a straight man or woman, you cannot turn this around to suggest that being left handed makes you gay, that is not logical.

This was a small scale test, but nonetheless resulted a 100% yield. So it's fair to assume there is some connection between it and transsexuality. I honestly don't see where the "turning around" comes into this.

And the neuron count has a big influence on how gender works. So at least SOME part of a transsexual is mentally, truly female. Since we don't have anythning else for definite to go on, until further notice, scientifically speaking, transsexuals are mentally female(or male in an FtM case). You can choose to disagree with this - but don't act like a commonly held b

Again having a lower neuron count does not make you have the brain of a woman, it is not that simple, these are only general categories and levels.

"General categories and levels"? I'll admit I don't know a huge amount about "brain science", but quite frankly, at this stage you're just talking out of your arse to defend your view. I wouldn't have so much of a problem with people's views if there was a decent base for it. I can see how people wouldn't accept me as female "Pre-op"(Though I do think it's unncessary to treat me as male when I make myself out to be anything but) but with post po, you really do have science stacked against you this time.

The Revs wrote:

Explain to me how the brain can cause a physical change from man to woman, once that can occur I will gladly accept your point.

You're born with your brain wired that way, that's sort of the point.

You seem to be pretty irrepairably closed minded about this, you'd never set up a situation where I could actually prove you wrong, regardless.

What's most important though, is that you keep asking why you should accept transsexuals as women, at least indirectly.

But I'll raise a more important question; Why SHOULDN'T you?

Can someone provide a valid reason how it is in any way productive tto refuse to accept a transsexual as their true gender?

I'm never going to stop being a woman. So what are you achieving?

swiss

Frankly this is starting to get annoying. Firstly, thanks to PhantomBeaker for her reply, I'll have to chew on it some more.

Rozie, Jesus. You insist on getting horribly offended by everything everyone is saying, whether they are being intentionally offensive or not (and as far as I can tell, they're not).

Incidentally, one particular quote from you sticks out in my mind. I don't like quoting out of context, but I found this very telling:

If you can't accept that, then quite frankly, you can feck off.

Oh really. If we can't accept what you think is reality, then we can feck off. But somehow, if you can't accept what others perceive as reality, it's somehow acceptable for you to stay? And post a diatribe saturated whine of a response no less.

Oh but nooo I'm not being accepting or supportive enough. I guess this is just going to fuel your persecution complex, your opinion that you're alone, that everyone hates you and that you're a lone stoic woman fighting the righteous fight against the multitudes of primitive, snarling detractors just waiting to take you down.

Because if that's your opinion, then quite frankly you can just feck off.

Rozie

Oh really. If we can't accept what you think is reality, then we can feck off. But somehow, if you can't accept what others perceive as reality, it's somehow acceptable for you to stay? And post a diatribe saturated whine of a response no less.

Did you stop to think that maybe what they're saying is actually offensive? To be fair I've given them plenty warning of how I feel, and they still persist.

Oh really. If we can't accept what you think is reality, then we can feck off. But somehow, if you can't accept what others perceive as reality, it's somehow acceptable for you to stay? And post a diatribe saturated whine of a response no less.

No, if people can't accept that the T in LGBT is there to stay, they can feck off. Please don't put words in my mouth, or even worse, take existing words and put them completely out of context.

Rev Hellfire

Rozie wrote:

You're born with your brain wired that way, that's sort of the point.

The idea that your brain is wired a particaulr way is one I never disagreed with. I just dont believe that you can ever be a woman (genetically), I certainly agree that you could be look like one, think like one and be as close as possible to being one, but I think that as an ideal its one you can reach for but not attain.

You seem to be pretty irrepairably closed minded about this, you'd never set up a situation where I could actually prove you wrong, regardless.

Its not so much that I'm closed minded, more that I havent been given any reason to change my opinion so far.

But I'll raise a more important question; Why SHOULDN'T you?

Because I dont believe that a tgirl is a woman. I dont as a rule believe things just to make others feel good. The feeling of others in that regards are irrelevant to me.

I'm never going to stop being a woman. So what are you achieving?

You assume I'm looking to achieve something. I dont believe a tgirl is a woman you and other do thats all there is to it. I disagree with many people on a broad range of subjects.
You seem to think that I wish to impose my set of morals/beliefs on you, to be honest I really dont care either way about transexual. I merely see it a curiousity. Like most things in life if it doesnt effect me I'm not that bothered.

swiss

Did you stop to think that maybe what they're saying is actually offensive?

Yes I did. Then I read it again. Then I concluded that (excepting perhaps one or two examples I'm not certain about yet) there was no intention of offence, but that you found them offensive, probably because this is a sensitive area for you and you're easily offended. Irrespective of whether they're 'right' or 'wrong' they're just giving an opinion, as are you.

The feck off comment is characteristic of the entire basis for your replies. Granted, I admitted that I didn't like taking words out of context, but when it comes to a dismissive attitude - that is your context.

I'm not saying that you have to accept what some people are telling you - that you are not a 'real' woman etc. But for heavens sake, you're just compounding the problem by reinforcing the "us versus them" mentality and by being patronising about it to boot.

Maguined

Rozie i have read your links and nothing within proves in anyway that a transgendered person "is" they gender they want to be. if you actually read your own links you should pay attention to the use of the word "identity". all of your facts and figures about brain scans explains the "gender identity disorder" or why you think you are female, it does not prove you are female in anyway.

So again there is evidence of why you think you are female but there is no logical evidence saying you are female. you reject chromosones as a legitimate way of defining gender because nobody can go around with a microscope yet you want to use brainscans to define gender ? how do you suggest people go around with a brainscanner ? as well as i still do not view your brainscan article as conclusive as they do not give specific numbers, I bet there are plenty of people without GID that have neuron levels in the other genders range.

The issue of the productiveness of viewing t-girls as actually men is simple, we feel you are male because of the evidence of genes etc. you feel you are female because of ... well just because you are female. where is the productivity in labeling those who do not view you as female as ignorant, uneducated and disrespectfull ?

You contradict yourself constantly saying that it is really unfair in life because you are finding it hard to find a date because you are a t-girl then go on to say that all your transgendered friends are not single.

You say we are disrespectfull of your opinion that you are a female yet you disresect our opinion that you are not female because we are ignorant, unedcated etc etc etc.

You take offence to anything even advice offered to you in a respectfull friendly manner.

You really consider the situation to be you against the world yet dont even bother to question maybe the entire world is not the one with the problem, maybe its just your attitude. Yes i know you are just going to complain that this is insulting to you, i don't care anymore, i tried talking to you nicely but you just let that big ol chip on your shoulder lash out at everything.

I wish you the best of luck in finding a date but doubt your chances with your current attitude towards anyone that does not have the same identical opinions as you.

You complain about the tolerance this world shows to T-girls, show some to the world and you might be happily suprised how much you get in return.

Rozie

Yes I did. Then I read it again. Then I concluded that (excepting perhaps one or two examples I'm not certain about yet) there was no intention of offence, but that you found them offensive, probably because this is a sensitive area for you and you're easily offended.

This paragraph bemuses me, as it seems you can't quite grasp the concept of what being offended means.

I'm not saying that you have to accept what some people are telling you - that you are not a 'real' woman etc. But for heavens sake, you're just compounding the problem by reinforcing the "us versus them" mentality and by being patronising about it to boot.

What am I meant to do, then? Tell them they're right? Ignore them? You know everything, you tell me.

Rozie i have read your links and nothing within proves in anyway that a transgendered person "is" they gender they want to be. if you actually read your own links you should pay attention to the use of the word "identity". all of your facts and figures about brain scans explains the "gender identity disorder" or why you think you are female, it does not prove you are female in anyway.

You missed the point of the tests entirely, or most likely didn't even read or understand it. If they had just compared male to female transsexuals with males, I would see your point.

However, they also compared MtF transsexuals to females, and it matched up.

you reject chromosones as a legitimate way of defining gender because nobody can go around with a microscope yet you want to use brainscans to define gender ?

That's absolutely insane. Your brain means the way you THINK and FEEL as well as defining your behavioural patterns in an active manner.

But whatever, brains aren't important. I'll take your word for it.

The issue of the productiveness of viewing t-girls as actually men is simple, we feel you are male because of the evidence of genes etc. you feel you are female because of ... well just because you are female. where is the productivity in labeling those who do not view you as female as ignorant, uneducated and disrespectfull ?

"Just because you are" does not qualify as a reason, and you didn't give a single ounce of reason why it is productive or serves and good purpose to treat T-girls as men.

Where is the productivity? Maybe you're right there, but nonetheless it serves, at least, from my point of view, a flaw in the way you treat me taht needs to be addressed. So there is certainly some level of "this might get something done under the right circumstances".

Whereas your position has aboslutely no benefit to the world whatsoever.

OOI, if you were in power, would you pass a bill like the gender recognition act if it was proposed?

Oh, did you even know about that? Post-op TS are legally recognised as female in England now. But of course, it's just the way they feel and amounts to nothing and is all ultimately opinion. Right.

You contradict yourself constantly saying that it is really unfair in life because you are finding it hard to find a date because you are a t-girl then go on to say that all your transgendered friends are not single.

When the hell did I say that, and why do people keep quoting me on it!?

You say we are disrespectfull of your opinion that you are a female yet you disresect our opinion that you are not female because we are ignorant, unedcated etc etc etc.

I explained this already. My gender is a HUGE part of my being, whereas to you it's only an opinion. Perhaps I should respect your view more, but it's NOWHERE near equal.

Please, learn to grasp this concept.

You take offence to anything even advice offered to you in a respectfull friendly manner.

I don't recall asking for advice, nor any been given that I could have wanted.

You complain about the tolerance this world shows to T-girls, show some to the world and you might be happily suprised how much you get in return.

I'm sorry, but no matter what I do, you'll never view me, or treat me fully as female. So I have no reason to respect the world and it's views back, if people like you are truly immovable.
I need to stress that there's a different between accepting someone as female, and your beliefs on gender. Accepting does involve changing your views somewhat, but you can still have your own opinion at the core of it. In otherwords, I don't really think so, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. That, to me, is a mark of respect that you're all lacking. And since you'll never show it no matter what I do, I have no reason to do anything but recripocate.

Do you see my little dilemna here? And why I find it ridiculous that people essentially are accusing me of being intolerant.

Why do you need to make such a "big deal" out of viewing me as male? This isn't your life. This isn't your struggle. You're just a bystander, watching me strain through my life and being kicked and jabbed and abused at every corner because of one simple thing, shouting in "But yeah, you're a guy really". Can you see why I'd view you the way I do?

You refuse to bend the slightest. In doing so, you're essentially forcing me to bend to your perceptions. Respecting me as human being isn't enough, because if you dont' respect my gender, in my opinion, you don't truly acept me as a human being as being yourself is an important part of being human.

How do you honestly think I feel when I'm in a room with people who refuse to accept me as female? Do you have any idea how that feels? Do you even give a ****? Why does it hurt so much to be open minded?
And it is NOT due to my own insecurities. I know who I am, that doesn't stop me feeling bad about other people not recognising it. Just because I'm 100% convinced and know I'm a Doctor doesn't mean I can't get upset when someone says "Sure you are" once in a while.

However, though you may claim otherwise, it's quite obvious few of you would "accept" me as female.

Hmm_Messiah

How do you honestly think I feel when I'm in a room with people who refuse to accept me as female? Do you have any idea how that feels? Do you even give a ****? Why does it hurt so much to be open minded?
And it is NOT due to my own insecurities. I know who I am, that doesn't stop me feeling bad about other people not recognising it. Just because I'm 100% convinced and know I'm a Doctor doesn't mean I can't get upset when someone says "Sure you are" once in a while.

I tried so hard to leave this topic be

Much of your last post, recent posts don't bear commenting on, its a rehash of old flawed arguments and your habitual aggression and dismissal.

The bit in quotes is an example how your logic doesn't work, and I wonder why you don't see how unsupportable some of the crap you come out with is.
Ian Paisley is known as Dr Ian Paisley, He is convinced he is a Dr, and has a cert to prove it. However most people would find his doctorate laughable. Here we have one person with thier opinion which is not the not the popular one. Kinda like rozie, except Rozie has some mission to correct every ones wrongs, and to censor any thought that doesn't match some ideal world she'd hope to live in.

Regarding being accepted, in my own view, its your attitude that would be harder to tolerate than any surgery/behaviour/re-assignment.

Finally, and I don't mean in any way to be pretentious, if this thread were part of a counsellling/therapy exercise it would not be allowed continue at this stage hwere any usefulness is complete and it now just re-inforces the position of victim. It seems now an outlet for Rozie to dictate to the world, and to use an other posters word, is no longer "productive"

swiss

Finally, and I don't mean in any way to be pretentious, if this thread were part of a counsellling/therapy exercise it would not be allowed continue at this stage hwere any usefulness is complete and it now just re-inforces the position of victim. It seems now an outlet for Rozie to dictate to the world, and to use an other posters word, is no longer "productive"

I couldn't agree more.

Thread locked.