How do you feel about T-Girls?

jcoote

cheers rsynott interesting reading there

Rev Hellfire

Rosie I'm certainly not offended by you or transsexuals in general.
In my book you're free to do what ever you wish, but you see this all came from the question 'How do you feel about t-girls' to which I've given my view and presented how I perceive society views them.

Rozie

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Rosie I'm certainly not offended by you or transsexuals in general.
In my book you're free to do what ever you wish, but you see this all came from the question 'How do you feel about t-girls' to which I've given my view and presented how I perceive society views them.

The problem is that you don't really have a reason for believing it at all, except maybe being borne out of society's old fashioned views, and it does indeed disagree with science. What's dangerous about this is that if there was a referendum over a Gender Recognition Act(Like they passed in Britain), and you voted that transgenders should not be legally seen as female, it's not fair that a completely baseless opinion would have the same weight as one of the most important things in someone's life.

But it's okay to do that, since it's your "right" to, which I think is bull****. It's like a whole office of people taking a vote on what one person should get from the vending machine. But it's fair since he's equally represented with his single vote too. Madness.

These kind of decisions should be left to those who know what they're talking about...

rsynnott

jcoote wrote:

cheers rsynott interesting reading there

Oh, please note that Wikipedia is edited by the general public *resists the urge to say something rude* and that not everything there is either correct or authoritive. It's not a bad start though, and should contain references to more trustworthy sources.

Boston

Rozie wrote:

The problem is that you don't really have a reason for believing it at all, except maybe being borne out of society's old fashioned views, and it does indeed disagree with science. What's dangerous about this is that if there was a referendum over a Gender Recognition Act(Like they passed in Britain), and you voted that transgenders should not be legally seen as female, it's not fair that a completely baseless opinion would have the same weight as one of the most important things in someone's life.

But it's okay to do that, since it's your "right" to, which I think is bull****. It's like a whole office of people taking a vote on what one person should get from the vending machine. But it's fair since he's equally represented with his single vote too. Madness.

These kind of decisions should be left to those who know what they're talking about...

No thats not whats happening. No one here is making decision for you. He has a right to think what ever way he wants.

Rozie

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

I've seen nothing insulting, well maybe the "dogs balls" comment but it itself was trying to labour a point the poster just is not getting.

Some stuff seems insensitive, but when you face a brick wall you don't tackle it sensitvely, where would you get?

Rozie has invited much of the comment, and if anything she is the one insulting and annoying. It's equally offensive to tell people what their views are, their agenda, as if posters here have not the mental capacity to know what they are saying. Its offensive to to tell people they are being offensive when they are being no such thing.

You'd be better served by being annoyed with some one who opens a thread for no purpose other than to validate he distorted view of things, even if that means distorting what is said .

It's an offence to "reason" to see some one continually pick out what they see as negative, and not acknowledgng any other posts.

And regarding insults being thrown at gays and lesbians, how would we feel. Well first off I'd feel left out and secondly I'm an adult, I think i could deal with what is posted in a web forum ,or if not I think I might be able to voice my own offense.

Admittedly there are posters who seem to more often tackle things somewhat bluntly or aggressively, but IMO within a forum thats just accepted as part of the diversity .

I don't think I replied to this earlier. I think the kind of "offensive" yu're talking about is exactly the kind of "Political Correctness" I hate, because it's pretty much saying that I'm not allowed to point out possible flaws in society and how they view me, because I'm being offensive, I think I'm better than everyone else, I know what they're thinking better they do, blah blah and other such attempts to attack the person rather than the point.

If we were to stick to your logic, nothing would ever be resolved, EVER.

I really do think there is a huge issue with people who could be attracted and fall in love with transgenders who stay away from them for reasons based on fear, arrogance or ignorance, but since I'm offending certain people, it can't be said.

I'm not trying to offend anyone(unlike some people here), I'm pointing out somethign which affects me greatly and I don't think should ignored. But since it's offensive it will never get resolved.

On the other hand, there's absolutely no reason for some of the comments that are being said here, for isntance "You do know you'll never be a girl, right", that IS a blatant enforcement of opinion as opposed to challenging motive which is what I'm doing, and am perfectly entitled to do so.

My main issue is this one - people need to be educated more and sit up and keep an open mind. Too often does the LGBT bandwagon drop off the T - would you drop off Lesbians or Bisexuals in the same way? We're small in number and need support for us to ever gain the rights we deserve.

How many people are going to watch something like "Mr. Garrison's Shiny New Vagina" and recognise that while the show is ridiculous, it still very often attempts to get some kind of "Moral" across(usually reperesented by constant mockery or the camera focusing in on one of the characters while they have a little speech and piano music plays in the background).

Where is the rebuttal to these kind of things? Where are the "Hey, it's okay to be a transsexual" shows? It's all "Being gay is great, hey everbody, it's okay to be gay!" but transsexuality is still treated as something that's "Pushing it" by the LGBT community.

The time has come to stop ignored that little T at the end, the world is plenty ready to be educated at this stage. But nobody does anything for us, or at least very little and anything we try to do ourselves gets squashed by lack of sympathy.

So my big gripe is that transgendered people don't get the same respect within the LGBT community as all the other letters.

And I really do believe many people are being avoidant of transgenders for reasons other than sexual attraction or preference - and until you can prove me wrong on that, as I do have some bases for my claim which I presented earlier, I am perfectly entiteld to that and if you think YOU'RE offended, how do you think I feel? If you wish to take it personally, it's your own choice. I'm not enforcing that any one person is like that, though one or two people have shown signs of it. You keep telling me not to care what others think(which is a stupid view in any case if it's taken to the more extreme levels of transgenderism) yet you seem to be terribly bothered by my views and are desperately trying to come up with ways of how I'm being offensive, immature, trolling or "enforcing" my beliefs(Which to be fair, matter a lot more to me than yours do to you so it's hardly even).

Rozie

LiouVille wrote:

No thats not whats happening. No one here is making decision for you. He has a right to think what ever way he wants.

But it IS exactly what will happen in a few years time, and it's what's happening with Gay Marriage in many countries, "anti" people have no right to a vote on something that isn't their business.

Plus, however I see myself, how do you think it feels that the only thing stopping me from being myself is an overwhelming amount of people who refuse to socialise with who I really am?

No matter how much self confience I have, I'll still be seen as male, and a strange one at that. Whether or not it's your right to do so, it still hurts me in the end, and these views, as shown earlier, have absolutely no purpose or virtue to weigh out the hurt.

LegacyUser

I personally wouldn't have a problem with it as long as she wasn't an idiot. Never had a homosexual or transexual experience (have thought about it a lot though). But never say never

hazimel

Rozie...you've said multiple times that you feel that anybody who isn't "connected" to the issue of transsexuality shouldn't be allowed to have a vote on the issue:

Rozie wrote:

These kind of decisions should be left to those who know what they're talking about...

Rozie wrote:

But it IS exactly what will happen in a few years time, and it's what's happening with Gay Marriage in many countries, "anti" people have no right to a vote on something that isn't their business.

You've also said that while people are entitled to their opinion on any topic, that opinions such as those held by some people on this thread are outdated and based on old-fashioned views:

Rozie wrote:

The problem is that you don't really have a reason for believing it at all, except maybe being borne out of society's old fashioned views

Let me start off by saying that you walking down a slippery slope of fascism here by stating that only your opinion on something counts and only your opinion is right because you're involved in the situation and other people aren't. We live in a democracy. In a democracy, everybody gets a say on everything. This sucks for minorities like most of us reading this board, but them's the breaks. I'd suggest that if you want to live somewhere where only your opinion counts in legislation and social policy towards transsexuals, you go and live in RozieLand, where you are the supreme queen of all. It makes no sense to bash the public for having an opinion on something and telling them that they wouldn't understand anyway. That's not the way to win the war of understanding.

One other issue I have with your style of posting is the victim cap you're wearing. I really hope you brought enough for everyone in the audience, because we've all got our sob stories about feeling marginalized within society.

Next off, how the LGBT community treats the T's. I think you're right, I think that transsexuals are ostracised to an extent within LGBT society. Now leaving aside the fact that the word "community" is applied very tenuously here, I'd hazard a guess that the reason transsexuals are alienated to an extent is because of the sexuality issue involved. The 'L', 'G' and 'B' of the title apply to sexuality, but the 'T' applies to a gender issue. The rest of us are united in our common desire to shag people of the same sex, but T's stand apart from that.

Sexuality only comes into play when you consider whether sleeping with a pre-op transsexual is considered gay or not, if you are of the same gender. Apart from the fact that some male transsexuals will want to continue to sleep with men when they become women and others will want to sleep with women, an issue for those prospective partners of pre-op transsexuals is the identity which they apply to the transsexuals. Do they consider them men or women? Does the transsexual consider themselves straight or gay? Does the prospective partner care about sleeping with someone who is part man (physical), part woman (spiritual/mental)? I think you'll find that the reason so many people are concerned about having a relationship with or sleeping with a transsexual is because of the pre-op issues involved.

Which leads me to my next point. "How do I feel about T-Girls?". Well I wouldn't get with one. It's simple really, I'm a gay man. I like men. Hell, I don't even like camp men (ooh, the 'c' word - Damien will kill me). A person who has a penis, but feels like a woman is not a man to me. A person who was born a man and has undergone surgery to have his penis removed and had a vagina put there in its place is most definitely not a man. Ergo, I wouldn't get with one. I'd again hazard a guess that this is the opinion of most homosexual men.

The question of whether I would get with a T-girl if I were a straight man is another thing. Pre-op, no. Wonderful as it would be for the world to be completely focussed on personality and not on looks, it's never going to happen. If it were, I'd be scoring hot men left, right and centre for my winning personality and the fag hags of the world would be overjoyed at finally getting to sleep with their gays. I'd really try get over that one, if I were you. I've learned to cope with (most) straight men not sleeping with me and it's proven to be very confidence- and character-building.

Post-op, I probably would get with a T-girl. That's assuming that the girl looked completely like a girl and had all the necessary parts and I couldn't tell the difference. If I were a straight man and there were no longer "Something" about Miriam, I'd probably get with her. Of course some people will have hang-ups about getting with someone who isn't "all natural" in much the same way as they'll have hang-ups about getting with someone who's had face-lifts and botox, but they're entitled to that.

Dammit, I swore I wouldn't post on this thread. See what you've all done!

Hmm_Messiah

Rozie wrote:

........ QUOTE]

That’s the greatest load of *** I’ve read in some time, in as much as I can understand it. You are totally incoherent and addressing things never raised and continuing your crusade.

Earlier you were determined that some one must change their opinion, must read up, much side with you. No, no, and no.
What I said was offensive is your seemingly deliberate misreading of what people are saying, and equally your wish to open some debate while your mind is closed, not just closed but seized up, sealed up , locked, decommissioned.

If you read anything properly I was, in as much as it's possible, supporting you. And I answered your initial question clearly and succintly. Yes some people may well have full happy relationships with a transexual. What more is there to be said?

And within all your own outrage you use the term T-girl. You do realize T-girl is a vaguely derogatory term for usually a pre-op transsexual which some persons have a fetish for - chicks with dicks?
Accusing me of PC is laughable ; I don’t thing any one who knows me would agree with you, if anything I am the opposite as I refuse to re-enforce concepts that difference requires sensitivity.

Every where you keep listing what you are not allowed to do, and then telling people what they can't or mustn't do.Has any one ever suggested you grow up ?

Hmm_Messiah

I really do think there is a huge issue

only for a tiny tiny minority, sad but true. I have "life-altering" issues to deal with, you really think the world will take them on?

My main issue is this one - people need to be educated more and sit up and keep an open mind. Too often does the LGBT bandwagon drop off the T - would you drop off Lesbians or Bisexuals in the same way? We're small in number and need support for us to ever gain the rights we deserve

I don't belong to a LGBT bandwagon, I'd scarcely see myself in a LGB one, and either ways some people replying to you have been straight. There is also a difference, and you more than any one should know this. LGB relate to sexual orientation, or sexuality in a broad sense, Transsexualism/Transgender relates to Gender identity. Whole different ball game (no pun intended )

So my big gripe is that transgendered people don't get the same respect within the LGBT community as all the other letters.

Why didn't you make that your original post then? IMHO persons deserve respect , not because of some category, but intrinsically becuase they are ..persons

And I really do believe many people are being avoidant of transgenders for reasons other than sexual attraction or preference - and until you can prove me wrong on that, as I do have some bases for my claim which I presented earlier,

I never tried to prove you wrong. Mostly due to how you present yourself and your arguement I don't actually care what you believe. However you are not only wrong, but being that terrible thing.. offensive...when you declare the motivations of people posting. People you don't kow. How dare you oresume to know their minds better than themselves? are you not doing what you constantly accuse the world in genaal of doing?

You keep telling me not to care what others think(which is a stupid view in any case if it's taken to the more extreme levels of transgenderism) yet you seem to be terribly bothered by my views and are desperately trying to come up with ways of how I'm being offensive, immature, trolling or "enforcing" my beliefs(Which to be fair, matter a lot more to me than yours do to you so it's hardly even).

I'm the one being desparate LOLOLOLOL .
Your beliefs are more important than mine ?
Sums it up really, you really believe that don't you, that you have some special right and authority.
The genitalia morphing is not the obscene part of this thread, its your delusions and selfrighteousness which are, not offense (now too laughable to be that) but obscene.

I guess rereading everything would not help you realise that I was more sympathetic too you than some, and you've made me care less about you by the selectiveness of your responses. You've not mentioned a single thing Phantombeaker said . Oh wait; nothing to feel "outraged" about there.

This thread has been interesting in different ways, but its not really dealt with the original post, but then, that was never really on your agenda was it. You'll forgive me if I decline any further comment.

Rozie

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

Rozie wrote:

........ QUOTE]

That’s the greatest load of *** I’ve read in some time, in as much as I can understand it. You are totally incoherent and addressing things never raised and continuing your crusade.

Earlier you were determined that some one must change their opinion, must read up, much side with you. No, no, and no.
What I said was offensive is your seemingly deliberate misreading of what people are saying, and equally your wish to open some debate while your mind is closed, not just closed but seized up, sealed up , locked, decommissioned.

If you read anything properly I was, in as much as it's possible, supporting you. And I answered your initial question clearly and succintly. Yes some people may well have full happy relationships with a transexual. What more is there to be said?

And within all your own outrage you use the term T-girl. You do realize T-girl is a vaguely derogatory term for usually a pre-op transsexual which some persons have a fetish for - chicks with dicks?
Accusing me of PC is laughable ; I don’t thing any one who knows me would agree with you, if anything I am the opposite as I refuse to re-enforce concepts that difference requires sensitivity.

Every where you keep listing what you are not allowed to do, and then telling people what they can't or mustn't do.Has any one ever suggested you grow up ?

Oh gods, the "Grow up" bull****. I'm pretty sure I've ranted on enough about the type of people that use the "grow up" comment. It's a completely and utterly meaningless sentiment thanks to people like you who use it for stupid reasons or just plain people you disagree with.

T-girl isn't a derogatory term, and that just showns your ignorance in the matter.

Your beliefs are more important than mine ?

You love twisting words, don't you? My "beliefs" have more weight since they apply to me, yours don't really make much difference to you either way as it doesn't affect your life constantly. So yes, in a sense, they are more important than yours as they're more relevant.

I guess rereading everything would not help you realise that I was more sympathetic too you than some, and you've made me care less about you by the selectiveness of your responses. You've not mentioned a single thing Phantombeaker said . Oh wait; nothing to feel "outraged" about there.

Because I know Phantombeaker outside of these forums, and it's quite obvious through what. AND honestly, with all the replies being flung out me, how can I NOT be selective? I'm entirely on my own in this, again.

Sums it up really, you really believe that don't you, that you have some special right and authority.

OH GEE WOW I like to think I have some some special right and authority over everyone else in how I live my life. That's so terrible of me. I'll go cut myself right now because I'm so ashamed of myself. You're right, it's perfectly acceptable that people who know nothing about transsexuality could potentially vote away any hope of my gender being recognised in this country.

The genitalia morphing is not the obscene part of this thread, its your delusions and selfrighteousness which are, not offense (now too laughable to be that) but obscene.

You know what? Fuck off. I'm tired of people saying how delusional I am and then not even backing up why. THat's a nasty, vicious, insult, you're being an ass, and I'm sick of your attitude. Have fun laughing over me and acusing me of notions superiority, you damn hypocrite.

I'm tired of being accused of lashing out when most of the time I'm only reacting to other people. I'm tired of people hating anyone who stands up for their rights in a manner that's not entirely docile and dormant.

Quite frankly, I'm sick of this thread, I'm sick of this board, and I'm sick of this country, and I'm very quickly getting sick of any form of debate on the internet too.

I'm done here.

fortysixand2

Thank goodness for that. The acidity of these replies is giving me heartburn.

Annasopra

Rozie - I genuinely do hope you come back - I find the transphobia within the LGB(T?) community abhorrent and as I have said before I personally think some of the transphobic and personal remarks in this thread were disgraceful (on all sides) - so much for tolerance

dogs bollox being one particular distasteful comment

However I do think that there is much more support here than you realise - people were actually trying to be constructively helpful (perhaps in a blunt way) - it is just that as I have said before you seem to be in a mindset almost wanting people to be negative and refusing to listen to reasonable suggestions or interpretations

There is also the problem that a lot of us here find some trans issues hard to understand/grasp - this does mean that we are all transphobic - probably just not as aware as you

Have you spoken to Gill Dalton in Trans Support Ireland at all. I know they are based in Dublin but I have found her to be a really warm genuine helpful person

Boston

Johnnymcg wrote:

Rozie - I genuinely do hope you come back - I find the transphobia within the LGB(T?) community abhorrent and as I have said before I personally think some of the transphobic and personal remarks in this thread were disgraceful (on all sides) - so much for tolerance

dogs bollox being one particular distasteful comment

However I do think that there is much more support here than you realise - people were actually trying to be constructively helpful (perhaps in a blunt way) - it is just that as I have said before you seem to be in a mindset almost wanting people to be negative and refusing to listen to reasonable suggestions or interpretations

There is also the problem that a lot of us here find some trans issues hard to understand/grasp - this does mean that we are all transphobic - probably just not as aware as you

Have you spoken to Gill Dalton in Trans Support Ireland at all. I know they are based in Dublin but I have found her to be a really warm genuine helpful person

Name names or be quiet tbh. Who do you think has been transphobic on this thread? Moi, messiah, Damien? I take it by your lack of answering the orginal question that you too have no desire to be with a transexual. Therefore we can conclude transphobia in much hte same way rozie has?

damien

Johnnymcg wrote:

dogs bollox being one particular distasteful comment

I believe the word was balls not bollox. Rozie (who I guarantee will be back) was using the sentiment that one has to open ones mind up and adhere to "you don't know its for you unless you try it." mentality. I used the example of some people don't want to try cheese and will never eat cheese because they just don't want it. Rozie tried to argue against this idea. Rozie was intolerant to those that would not entertain the notion of being with a T-Girl. Not many would lick a dogs balls but why? Should they not try it to see if they actually like it? It's not that big of a leap, yet the culture we live in would wretch at the idea. You found my comments distasteful, I didn't find it so. This is the crux of Rozie's attitude though: People are not allowed to formulate their own definitions of taste. What a boring world to live in if we all had the homogenous tastes.

Did you find I was intolerant? I'd genuinely like to know.

Stark

JohnnyMcG wrote:

Rozie - I genuinely do hope you come back- I find the transphobia within the LGB(T?) community abhorrent

Of course we are in secret league with the heteropatriarchy and are funded millions to maintain this attitude. Oh wait, I'm mixing that up with her "It's the secret world order that's telling us obesity is unhealthy" little conspiracy theory. Was funny until she called everyone who tried to disagree with her "ignorant pricks". Sound familiar? Her issues stem from far deeper than just "transphobia".

rsynnott

Stark wrote:

Of course we are in secret league with the heteropatriarchy and are funded millions to maintain this attitude. Oh wait, I'm mixing that up with her "It's the secret world order that's telling us obesity is unhealthy" little conspiracy theory. Was funny until she called everyone who tried to disagree with her "ignorant pricks". Sound familiar? Her issues stem from far deeper than just "transphobia".

In fairness, this is a different thing, and there has been an element of transphobia here, if you look back. (Incidentally, her conspiracy theory on obesity is the wrong way round; in the States the big food industry lobby groups recently leaned heavily on the DOH to prevent the publication of new dietary guides de-emphasising meat and dairy products )

Boston

rsynnott wrote:

In fairness, this is a different thing, and there has been an element of transphobia here, if you look back. (Incidentally, her conspiracy theory on obesity is the wrong way round; in the States the big food industry lobby groups recently leaned heavily on the DOH to prevent the publication of new dietary guides de-emphasising meat and dairy products )

Theres ignorance but I don't see transphobia. Has she done anything to alleviate that ignorance though? She has merely propagated it.

Rozie

rsynnott wrote:

In fairness, this is a different thing, and there has been an element of transphobia here, if you look back. (Incidentally, her conspiracy theory on obesity is the wrong way round; in the States the big food industry lobby groups recently leaned heavily on the DOH to prevent the publication of new dietary guides de-emphasising meat and dairy products )

OOI, it only makes sense that the Fast Food companies would try to fight back. But diet companies do indeed control much of what goes down with that sort of thing. Basically though, it's just an instance of people once more disliking what's different.

I don't see how Diet Companies are any different to the fast food companies, or how they'd be any less corrupt purely because they pretend they're "helping" people, they're just as bad as they're both making money off fat miserable people, though at least McDonalds is being a little more honest about it and responding with their salads and such, unlike the Diet companies who continue to guilt and pressure.

I remember those old government made films from the 50s or so on homosexuality; I think governments in general feed of the preconcieved notions of the people(the US being a prime example right now) and much of what they publish will reflect that. It's common sense that being massively fat isn't as healthy as being "normal" weight, but it doesn't hold for everyone in the same way. Common ignorance says otherwise, and we get atrocities like the BMI scale.

Fat people are stealing our hospital beds, and are incredibly unhealthy and selfish so hey - let's feed off that notion to appease people instead of dodging real issues and actually making a real attempt to help.

That's the real reason I detest "diet nazis", as I call them; not only is being overweight probably not as big an issue as smoking, or many other health risks, they force people who are somehow physically different(and often not even particularily unhealthy for it) to excrutiate themselves to fit in with their ideal of a perfect world, and keep the idea that it's entirely a fat person's fault they're overweight burning in everyone's mind.
Nobody should be forced to change themselves like that to fit in or be respected, but it's what they want.

I'd hate to live in a world where everyone is thin - it comes off as being oddly master race-ish, but it seems most people would. I'd rather people be all kinds of different shapes and sizes as long as it's not too terribly unhealthy.

Of course, since the mods on this forum are trigger happy monkies who suspend you before even wracking their simian brains on another solution or just plain leaving it alone, and treat you like **** if you have a problem with the way things or done, I got suspended from that forum for two weeks so it doesn't matter anyway. Looks like the two or three people(or perhaps a few more, I don't remember) who enjoy going around making "fat ****s" feel bad about themselves had a victory there.

Anyway, off topic since I'm not bothering with this topic anymore anyway, but as you can see I believe a lot of the same underlying logic applies to both. I've given up trying to educate people on my own, quite frankly I've lost faith in the human race in general which is why I don't care much how I respond. Most people only reply by taking the piss or attacking me instead of what I stand for. Gods I'm sick of people.

damien

Welcome back to this thread, this forum, this site and to the Internet Rozie. How was the hiatus?

Rozie

damien.m wrote:

Welcome back to this thread, this forum, this site and to the Internet Rozie. How was the hiatus?

I only came to comment on something off topic, because I was banned off the original discussion for a ****ty reason. Though I'm sure it amuses you no end how weak willed I apparently am.

Stark

Rozie wrote:

Though I'm sure it amuses you no end how weak willed I apparently am.

Sure have another burger :rolleyes:

Do you really want to sabotage yourself because of what a few geeks might say to you on an internet forum? If your sex change really is the thing for you, then you need to stop breaking out in a rage anytime you hear someone say "a transsexual girl" is not for them. Not everyone is attracted to everyone, that's what makes the world interesting. And few people can really answer what their type is straight off the bat anyway. Find happiness in yourself and that will add to your attractiveness. Your dating opportunities will never be as numerous as say a straight male tall, dark and gorgeous movie star, but whose are?

Swimmy

I agree with Stark. I think you need to love yourself i.e. be happy with who you are before expecting others to swoon for you. There is someone out there for everyone........well I hope so. I think getting so defensive about peoples honest opinions is well silly considering they are how they feel. No everyone loves bald men........so not everyone will love Transexuals....don't take it personally.

LegacyUser

Type T-girls into google and you get dozens of websites about the beauty of pre op transsexuals.
The men who read those sites overwhelmingly identify as straight.
If you look like a pretty girl you will be able to get a man or men. bviously he won't be gay.

If you are an ugly woman, well you will fidn it harder.

Such is life.

Maguined

Rozie,

I am a hetero male and would probably not go out with a T-Girl. in your view does this make me ignorant ?

Do you find straight men who do not try having sex with other men ever ignorant too for making their mind up without at least trying it first ? do you not think there are some things people are allowed make their minds up first without trying and without being labeled ignorant as a result ?

Correct me if i am wrong but i got the impression you think it is unfair because some men will not date you because you believe you are a woman in a mans body. does that not mean that all tastes and attractions are unfair ? ie someone who is attracted to tall/short women or big breasts/small breasts are being unfair too ?

do you believe that people who do not refer to you as female are being ignorant ?

LegacyUser

I think they're fine, if a post operative transsexual seemed to be a woman I don't think it would bother me, maybe it would who knows. It depends on looks.

I wanted to tell you all [1] that Lydia Foy is in the supreme court on November 8. She was born physically male and has had a surgical sex change (r correction as she would say) she seeks to force the state to change her birth cert to girl. Interesting case.

BTW the High Court judge in this case (the last version of it before Ms Foy's appeal) ruled that marriage can only take place between a biological man and a biolgical woman.

BBTW Rozie you would probably get more men if you didn't have a sex change/correction in Italy there is a big fascination with transsexuals who retain their penis.

[1] And seek your opinions on the matter.

PhantomBeaker

Meh, I added something to this effect already except it disappeared in the upgrade less than an hour later. By the way, I know the reply was directed toward Rozie but I thought I'd just reply anyway.

Mikaboshi wrote:

I am a hetero male and would probably not go out with a T-Girl. in your view does this make me ignorant ?

To me. Nope. To me, the word is "probably" that makes a lot of difference - which, to me, means that you not discounting some freak miracle. Even if you didn't, I'd probably not hold it against you. If you found a partner who made you happy (for a while at least), and they happened to be trans, then great. If not - I'd still not sweat over it. Just a bit of re-assurance can be nice. :P

does that not mean that all tastes and attractions are unfair ? ie someone who is attracted to tall/short women or big breasts/small breasts are being unfair too ?

I dunno about you, but I reached that conclusion AGES ago. I mean, attraction (in my mind at least) is definately one of those parts of human nature that is damned unpredictable and DEFINATELY not fair. I think it's one of the fun parts to it - Ok, I very rarely get any, but it's still entertaining - you can just look at all the romance novels, films, plays et cetera that are out there! They wouldn't there if there wasn't an audience for them, and we wouldn't be entertained time and time again if it was simple and fair.

do you believe that people who do not refer to you as female are being ignorant ?

Ok, here's the touchy topic. Personally I'd not count it as ignorant - I'd look at it entirely as a matter of respect. As soon as you know that someone is trans, you're no longer ignorant of that fact. As a result, from then on ignorance isn't in the equation. However, respect, tact, dignity, diplomacy all are part of that equation - just like any other dealing with any other human being.

So, you see a trans person who obviously doesn't pass - shouting "tranny" at them from a great distance is not respectful, tactful, diplomatic or conducive to the retention of any dignity. Then again, how do you approach such a situation? This will challenge your skills of diplomacy and tact.

Online - I take it to be a BIG mark of disrespect to refer to a trans-person as their birth sex unless there's a good reason. I mean, when all's said and done, you're unlikely to actually meet them in real life... in which case, at least give them that. Who knows in real life, if you met them, you might not know.

In real life - there are a lot more variables. I mean, it'd be nice. It'd be very nice to be called Aoife all the time... but I also have to take into consideration that quite a lot of the time I'm seen with stubble. To me there's a bit of contract - if I pass as female, I should at least get some feedback that I do. If I don't, well fair enough, it means I've got to work harder. And then there are some who call me Aoife anyway.

Then sometimes there are practical situations - there are certain groups where I go by my male name. In one particular group, I used to wonder which name to give, but generally settled on male, even though I'm damned sure most of the regulars would have no problem with it... and now that my parents are threatening to turn up there, I'm definately not introducing myself as Aoife in case someone slips up. That'd be the last thing I need seeing as I'm living at home, and not exactly open about how out I actually am. Yeah, that's an interesting situation.

Basically play it by ear, but always be mindful of respect. Generally speaking, if someone introduces themselves by a certain name, I'll go with that name. I won't ask "So what's your REAL name" - that's happened to me once in the G (No, I'm not bitter :P ). Myself, if I'm unsure of myself (most cases) I'll introduce both ways and confuse people, but that's me. By the way, if anyone DOES ask that, probably best to ask what they prefer and stick with that.

Very simply - if you don't want to offend people, don't.

If you do wanna offend, it's still probably best not to, but go right on ahead in trying to offend them. Speaking of which, it takes quite a bit to do so with myself - I may walk away thinking you're an a$$hole (or if you're just ignorant of what's going on and want to know but are awkward with the ideas, I'll be glad to help), but chances are I won't be offended.

Take care,
Aoife

Maguined

if no one can control what they are and are not attracted to then is that not fair as it is random for everyone ? if some people can control what they are attracted to and some people could not, that would be unfair. in my reading Rozie seemed to imply it is unfair on T-Girls as the majority of males do not seem to be willing to date them. if this is so then i would like to hear Rozie's opinion on other tastes such as height/weight/ etc.

Is it not a sign of disrespect to demand that ones own views overide other peoples ? some people do not see Rozie as a female, so why should they automatically have to pretend to or else be labbeled ignorant or disrespectfull ? it is basically saying that some people are not allowed express their opinion which is unfair imho. you want to express your opinion that you are of the female gender then thats cool as thats your choice, but you are saying that i should not express my opinion that your gender is male which i think is unfair. how would you feel if i told you i think you should post in the masculine gender or else i would consider you disrespectfull ?

masteroftherealm

Rozie wrote:

But it IS exactly what will happen in a few years time, and it's what's happening with Gay Marriage in many countries, "anti" people have no right to a vote on something that isn't their business.

Sorry but looking over this thread I wasnt gong to interject but I cant find the logic in this statement.

How can you say that people arenot entitled to their own opinion unlless it comes in line with your own thought process? Of course they have that right, the same way you would have the right to vote on a ban of lets say "all people who are LGBT must not leave their houses". Just because this does not fit into your way does not mean it is right or wrong.
In fact thats what a lot of this comes down to, a feeling of right and wrong.
Example: I would not date a TGirl in my current state of mind. However I wouldnt do this because if the moral perception of it being "wrong" I would do this purely because I would not feel attracted to a TGirl. Now before you try and counteractt that statement I can say that I wuld not hpwever rule out that option. Because you never know what can happen in the future.
Much of the probel ca be traced back to why people do not feel they would date a Tgirl and I think that this is a personal opinion, some may some may not. I know many people who work with LGBT on a dailt basis and who are neither L,G,B or T(Myself included, Im as straight as a flagpole but I support and work as much as I can because many of my friends are and I feel that I ca help so I do),

Just because someone would not want to date you becauseof your Gender, Sexuality or Race does not make you a lesser person and I think you need to realise this. You are your own person, special and unique and noone can ever take that away from you, now or in the future. Realise that and you will begin to realise and find your true self.
Yours
Jay