How do you feel about T-Girls?

chump

UTV tonight @ 8pm

Real Families: My Mums Used to Be Men (Stereo) (T) The story of 12-year-old Louise Jarvis, who lives with two transsexuals. Her biological father underwent a sex-change operation to become Sarah, before moving in with Kate - once a truck driver named Lee. The family has been dubbed the weirdest in Britain, and the youngster has been victimised by children who used to be her friends. In this documentary, she explains what it is really like living with two mums.

Should be interesting.

As for Rozie, your criticism of my post just shows how you've a real uphill struggle to change the minds of the masses.
Most people determine true sexual identity with the body a person is born with.
Fair enough they may understand some concept of identity confusion, and in many cases may even be able to grasp the concept of how a "woman" can be born in a mans body... but they don't necassarily look at this person as being a "woman".
The idea that sexual identity may well in many ways relate to upbringing and external factors adds a whole extra element to this, which I wont even go in to.
And nevermind the feminisation (in a personality sense) of many people, there are many men nowadays who fit in better with women. They might wear mens clothes and be men, but they certainly could be said to share more tastes/interests/personality traits with those of women. Some are gay, some are straight. The acceptance of this probably actually causes more confusion/misunderstandings between your will and methods - when it seems it would be a very logical alternative to remain in your given-body and to act as your internal-self wishes.

As for your assertion that:

No you bloody well don't [feel your pain]. Maybe some other people here do, but you've insulted me and/or transsexuality at least 3 times in your post so far, and possibly more was editted out.

Where did I ever insult you and transsexual people?
By asking questions and stating my admittedly limited knowledge on the topic and asking for answers I've insulted you?

If you aren't prepared to explain to people why you are what you are - how can expect us to care about your plight?
And once again you've raised all your problems above those of others...
Maybe people dont feel your pain, but feel the pain or disease, illness, mental issues, size issues, deformations, disability...

You're not that special or that big a deal to most people. There are many peoples whose plight I'd put ahead of yours - at least you had options, HAVE options ... even have to option just to take ur head out of your ass and stop moaning and getting on with your life...

But one things for sure you'll have to learn to answer questions in a polite manner and accept that people aren't gonna go

HEY SHE'S A TRANSSEXUAL, LETS GO READ UP ON THAT & WHAT GOES ON IN HER HEAD, AND HOW DOCTORS CANT EVEN TELL THE DIFFERENCE, AND HOW THEY'VE SUCH A TERRIBLE TIME... BLAH BLAH BLAH

Rozie

Crucifix wrote:

I would have said he was just emphasising the linchpin of his point.

By saying I could never be a girl by any standards? It bugs me that because transsexuality doesn't get the same recognition of other things people can get away with all sorts of comments and it just being innocent opinion. Now, if someone is ignorant, you can understand that. But if they're commenting on serious TS issues you think they'd have the courtesy to read up on the protocol.

Some of these replies are really starting to get on my nerves...

I'm sure there are. Making a passable vulva however would be a good trick.

Sorry, I meant vagina as laymens terms for vulva/"The Whole Shebang", and yes they do make passable vulvas, a passable vagina wouldn't be useful without a passable vulva. These are experienced doctors and artistic plastic surgeons. They know what they're doing, and there's enough stuff on it now for it to become a relatively simply operation compared to more major plastic surgery.
Making a passable vulva is the reason the op is such a big deal in the first place. And it is indeed possible and very widely done.

Boston

Rozie wrote:

By saying I could never be a girl by any standards? It bugs me that because transsexuality doesn't get the same recognition of other things people can get away with all sorts of comments and it just being innocent opinion. Now, if someone is ignorant, you can understand that. But if they're commenting on serious TS issues you think they'd have the courtesy to read up on the protocol.

Maybe you should inform us of the protocol.

Rev Hellfire

.

Hmm_Messiah

The only thing is I fear for the gay guys here, what with their enhanced feminine wiles these new superbabes will be turning them straight in no time.

Or perhaps "enhanced feminine willies"

Annasopra

:mad: :mad: :mad:

This thread is really beginning to annoy me

CAN THE MODERATORS PLEASE WARN PEOPLE AGAINST INSULTING POSTS

Ok fair enough Rozie finds it hard to understand the points of view of people here - fair enough we all find it frustrating that she does not take on board our advice/opinions - but if people don't understand the issues can they just say so without making insulting comments about Rozie and Transsexuals

I don't have time now but I will list all the insults later

- How would most people here feel if the insults were targeted at gay men or lesbians

Boston

Johnnymcg wrote:

:mad: :mad: :mad:

This thread is really beginning to annoy me

CAN THE MODERATORS PLEASE WARN PEOPLE AGAINST INSULTING POSTS

Ok fair enough Rozie finds it hard to understand the points of view of people here - fair enough we all find it frustrating that she does not take on board our advice/opinions - but if people don't understand the issues can they just say so without making insulting comments about Rozie and Transsexuals

I don't have time now but I will list all the insults later

- How would most people here feel if the insults were targeted at gay men or lesbians

I would like to believe I've been rather restrained. Rozie is delusional in allot of what she says. In particular her assertions about Bi-sexuals. She also seems to be insulted by just about everything. There are people here that are wearing ignorance like a badge of honor, however Rozie seems unwilling or unable to answer even the most direct questions.

Rozie

LiouVille wrote:

however Rozie seems unwilling or unable to answer even the most direct questions.

Did you ever think MAYBE it's because they either make a complete retarded mockery of the whole thing like many of the posts above(one of them got editted out, I see) or are just plain nasty either way?

It amazes me how someone who's insulted by someone is always automatically the wrong one online. Nobody really gives a **** if someone is offended or hurt anymore.

BuffyBot

How would most people here feel if the insults were targeted at gay men or lesbians

*shrugs* Would be water off a ducks back to me.

The point is, I don't really thing anything that offensive has been said. Harsh, maybe. Offensive..well, that's another debate altogether.

Hmm_Messiah

I've seen nothing insulting, well maybe the "dogs balls" comment but it itself was trying to labour a point the poster just is not getting.

Some stuff seems insensitive, but when you face a brick wall you don't tackle it sensitvely, where would you get?

Rozie has invited much of the comment, and if anything she is the one insulting and annoying. It's equally offensive to tell people what their views are, their agenda, as if posters here have not the mental capacity to know what they are saying. Its offensive to to tell people they are being offensive when they are being no such thing.

You'd be better served by being annoyed with some one who opens a thread for no purpose other than to validate he distorted view of things, even if that means distorting what is said .

It's an offence to "reason" to see some one continually pick out what they see as negative, and not acknowledgng any other posts.

And regarding insults being thrown at gays and lesbians, how would we feel. Well first off I'd feel left out and secondly I'm an adult, I think i could deal with what is posted in a web forum ,or if not I think I might be able to voice my own offense.

Admittedly there are posters who seem to more often tackle things somewhat bluntly or aggressively, but IMO within a forum thats just accepted as part of the diversity .

MicraBoy

Real Families: My Mums Used to Be Men (Stereo) (T) The story of 12-year-old Louise Jarvis, who lives with two transsexuals. Her biological father underwent a sex-change operation to become Sarah, before moving in with Kate - once a truck driver named Lee. The family has been dubbed the weirdest in Britain, and the youngster has been victimised by children who used to be her friends. In this documentary, she explains what it is really like living with two mums.

I watched this documentary. It was kind of interesting. One of the key points from it was the way in which the partner who was a transsexual was so happy with herself, especially when she got her new birthcert. The biological father (now mother) was not so happy with her appearance. This was all to do with how they felt in themselves not about actual physical looks. In fairness the one who was happiest quite frankly looked like a bloke in drag, where as the mother actually looked like a woman. And indeed the transexual mother of the boy who Louise befriended was all woman.

The other point I think that was important was that transexualism is such an internal feeling. It is all about what you feel inside. It would be incredibly difficult for a guy to get involved with a transexual who they, through no fault of there own, perceive as a man (because of physical characteristics). It's not much use having a fantastic looking vulva if you still look largely like a man. The point being its irrelevant, because inner peace and happiness aint going to come about based on the way you look, or if you have a partner or not.

Hmm_Messiah

The point being its irrelevant, because inner peace and happiness aint going to come about based on the way you look, or if you have a partner or not.

This is true. But people make the mistake that "inner peace" is what is required for true happiness. The reality is humans are soical beings, and we are predisposed to pairbonding etc etc, but more so a real human need is to be loved, in a way thats unique, and outside of those who "have to " love you. To wish for a loving partner is a valid desire, and almost universal.

Unless its by choice it can be unbearably painful to live in this world without a person to share it with. For some people though there is a feeling that is almost worse than being alone; thats the felling that they will always be alone (imagine being young and believing that)

I don't mean that some one else is needed to complete you, each person does need to be happy in themselves, and find the inner peace you mention. But it would be wrong to dismiss the pain , or emptiness people feel when they are alone. The easiet way I can describe it is for people with a long term partner (or even family member) to imagine what there life now would be without that person, knowing they existed but are lost to you.

Despite how difficult Rozie makes this, I can appreciate her simple wish to be accepted and hopeful to be held and cared for. I can only say that the more of the inner peace and happiness with self she finds the more open and ready she will be for whatever lies ahead.

Boston

Rozie wrote:

Did you ever think MAYBE it's because they either make a complete retarded mockery of the whole thing like many of the posts above(one of them got editted out, I see) or are just plain nasty either way?

It amazes me how someone who's insulted by someone is always automatically the wrong one online. Nobody really gives a **** if someone is offended or hurt anymore.

You Insulted me practically right off the bat when you started blaming bi-sexuals for you not have a partner, and demanding they be more open. Did I shut up shop and stop conversing with you? No. Now you have an oppertunity to inform me about transexuals and you're blowing it. I care not what anyone else is saying, I'm not being crude with you, I'm trying to engage with you.

MicraBoy

For some people though there is a feeling that is almost worse than being alone; thats the felling that they will always be alone (imagine being young and believing that)

I understand this. In fact I have personal experience of it. My best friend during my teenage years firmly believed it about himself. Of course the minute he got a girlfriend it was all forgotten, and I was the one who found himself all alone.
I have a slight intolerance for this kind of attitude as a result, because it involves a certain amount of clairvoyance I don't believe in. The futures bright, the future's orange and all that. (By the way he used that "no man is an island.." quote all the time )

Despite how difficult Rozie makes this, I can appreciate her simple wish to be accepted and hopeful to be held and cared for. I can only say that the more of the inner peace and happiness with self she finds the more open and ready she will be for whatever lies ahead.

Here here! She needs a bit of faith though.

Rozie

BuffyBot wrote:

*shrugs* Would be water off a ducks back to me.

The point is, I don't really thing anything that offensive has been said. Harsh, maybe. Offensive..well, that's another debate altogether.

I don't understand how you can think that. How are some of the comments, especially the one about "You do know you'll never be a girl right" not offensive?

And why does everyone else get to decide why they're offensive when they're not on the recieving end? A little too convenient for me.

But of course, I'm inviting it, since that's a nice and easy thing to say to blame it all on the person being harassed.

I didn't insult you off the bat Louville. I asked you why you wouldn't date a T-Girl, and I stated my opinion. It's like I'm not allowed, I can't possibly think there's another motive. I got very frustrated, because quite frankly, people seemed to only care about their own insecurities and not if my type of person ends up dying alone.

It is my view that many people don't go out with T-Girls out of igorance and insecurity, and I won't allow you to force otherwise on me. If it offends you that I think that, tough, how do you think I feel? Most people refuse to acknowledge anything said against me or transsexuals as offensive, since as far as they're concerned, they're fair game for bringing down and telling them they'll never be real women and don't they realise that and other such bull****.

This is the one thing I don't like about PC, some things never get discussed as a result. What if I'm right? But of course I'm not since what I'm saying is offensive to bisexual people for ever accusing them of human faults.

Boston

Rozie wrote:

my type of person ends up dying alone.

We all die alone mon chere.

It is my view that many people don't go out with T-Girls out of igorance and insecurity, and I won't allow you to force otherwise on me.

Ignorance; You are not a girl, you are per op. Post op is a whole other debate, but you have a penis, There is no ignorance there. which brings me onto the other point.

insecurity; Surely someone who is secure in their sexuality as say straight, would in no way wish to seak out a relationship with a transexual?

If it offends you that I think that, tough, how do you think I feel? Most people refuse to acknowledge anything said against me or transsexuals as offensive, since as far as they're concerned, they're fair game for bringing down and telling them they'll never be real women and don't they realise that and other such bull****.

Most people? You're talking to me here, I've fully ackonwledged that people on this thread have taken digs at you. I also never said you will never be a real woman. I wouldn't go down that road since I know women without wombs, without breats, ect. And I would never dear suggest they arn't real.

This is the one thing I don't like about PC, some things never get discussed as a result. What if I'm right? But of course I'm not since what I'm saying is offensive to bisexual people for ever accusing them of human faults.

Sorry this makes no sense and is all over the place. Clam down and repost please.

Rozie

Ignorance; You are not a girl, you are per op. Post op is a whole other debate, but you have a penis, There is no ignorance there. which brings me onto the other point.

But that doesn't make a difference. If you love someone you shouldn't hold back because of genitles that are only there for
a couple of years.

And you do not get to decide whether I am a girl or not. Mentally, and socially, I am female. Physically, I am male,
but that's somthing that won't be forever or for long.

Post op is not a whole other debate, since I will be post op in a few years. I don't see how that's a good excuse.

insecurity; Surely someone who is secure in their sexuality as say straight, would in no way wish to seak out a relationship with a transexual?

And why not..? They are going out with someone who is for all intensive purposes, female.

Most people? You're talking to me here, I've fully ackonwledged that people on this thread have taken digs at you. I also never said you will never be a real woman. I wouldn't go down that road since I know women without wombs, without breats, ect. And I would never dear suggest they arn't real.

I said other people said that, and some of the things you are saying are also quite offensive to me personally.

Sorry this makes no sense and is all over the place. Clam down and repost please.

I had a much longer post that got erased because I was using Internet Explorer and that tends to crash. Not my fault.

Rev Hellfire

And you do not get to decide whether I am a girl or not

That statement makes no sense. How another party decides to deal with you is their decision not yours. I really don’t know how to respond.

Now I admit this just might be my own opinion, but I think you’re looking for something from the heterosexual community that it can’t offer.
Ultimately a relationship between a transsexual and male is viewed as a gay relationship. Nothing wrong with that, there are many very happy, fulfilling and long lasting gay relationships.

But the rub is with your particular orientation you are attempting to cross the sexual boundaries, but unlike a bisexual who is I suppose accommodating of either gender, you demand acceptance. I suspect the gay to nongay perception is crux of your problem.

But I wouldnt give up hope, I'm sure somewhere there's someone for you just may need to look a bit harder.

Hmm_Messiah

Ultimately a relationship between a transsexual and male is viewed as a gay relationship.

Huh? as they used say in the toothpaste ads "I'm not an expert but" that doesn't seem correct. I would imagine that most men in a relationship with a post op transexual would be heterosexual. I mean the who transgender thing is about ...well gender. Gay men do not generally go out with women.


Rozie:
Is it possible some one will love you? yes
Will that be post op or pre-op ? More easy to happen post-op
Within the threads do you come across as lovable ? nope, sadly, not easily lovable or likeable, and nothing to do with anatomy or gender.

Now can you just move on, maybe deal with other aspects of your present situation/personality with are as much an obstacle to you "being loved". Your attitude and mindset as it comes across here would be unattractive to a great many people.

Rev Hellfire

The point I was making (without saying it) is that its viewed as a male male relationship, I suppose sometimes you should just come out and say it.

Again just my opinion.

Anyway this thread is just turning into a rehash of whats already been said. Interesting topic but I suspect it's run its course.

rsynnott

Viewed by whom, precisely?

Rev Hellfire

As I stated this is my own opinion, so viewed by me.

All depends on if you're prepared to view a post-op transsexual as a female.
I've made no secret I don’t so as far as I'm concerned its male male.

Most heterosexual males I’ve talked to don’t believe they are female and by most I mean all, but admittedly that may be the circles I frequent. Some people are after all more tolerant than others, but irish society on the whole isn’t.

Rozie

I don't want to force people to think a different way(though do want people to be a lot more respectful) but I'm asking an honest question here; why do you chose to believe that in the first place? What purpose does that believe serve, and how does it benefit you, or those around you in what you think, and why do you think it?

You need to have some reason or base for opinions or beliefs, and I think this is part of the key issue here.

Rev Hellfire

I'll be honest with you I can’t say I have any reasons for thinking as I do.
People are irrational creatures at the best time, and on this one I’m just following my gut.

Sounds like a copout I know, but it’s the only answer I can give. Just like you I am as I am.

rsynnott

Rev Hellfire wrote:

As I stated this is my own opinion, so viewed by me.

The point I was making (without saying it) is that its viewed as a male male relationship

Okay, "its [sic] viewed" means a different thing to "my view is that".

Boston

rsynnott wrote:

Viewed by whom, precisely?

You for a starter, Towards the start said something about f-m being totally out of the question. afair.

rsynnott

LiouVille wrote:

You for a starter, Towards the start said something about f-m being totally out of the question. afair.

No, sorry, please re-read; I was there referring to Hellfire's:

is that its viewed as a male male relationship,

Without qualification, thus seemingly asserting that this is a generally accepted view.

I fail to see what my personal not being interested in having a relationship with an f->m transexual has to do with that, even peripherally.

Rozie

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I'll be honest with you I can’t say I have any reasons for thinking as I do.
People are irrational creatures at the best time, and on this one I’m just following my gut.

Sounds like a copout I know, but it’s the only answer I can give. Just like you I am as I am.

You see, that's the problem. If you genuinely have no reason for seeing things that way, I don't see how you can get offended, and it bothers me in general that you choose to think that way for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

If there is no reason, then you should really think on reading up on it as modern science in general tends to recognise transsexuals, certainly post op, as female.

And actually, I have several reasons for being the way I am, and there are several scientific, biological and psychological theories behind it.
As for how touchy I am about it, I've been on a lot of boards where I've been severely harassed not neccessarily for just being trans, but daring to suggest I deserve to be respected on an equal level to everyone else. The worst thing is when I'm on a forum with another trans which people "Recognise" as female but not you, that kind of thing drives you absolutely nuts.

jcoote

rozie can i just ask what the biological reasons are not gonna critisize i'm just curious....i presume its hormonal is it???

rsynnott

jcoote wrote:

rozie can i just ask what the biological reasons are not gonna critisize i'm just curious....i presume its hormonal is it???

It's a field about which very little is known for sure, unfortunately. You may assume, however, that transgender people are not just doing it to annoy; there is almost certainly a fundamental unchangable reason behind it, much as with homosexuality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender